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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeros View Post
    hey why you have the next patch so early??

    btw, while in tiger form, isn't our dps really low and heal nothing? is it worth it?
    After so many zeros i end up adding to much..I think blizzard has the same problem. You stance dance to gain mana, not to get good dps or hps. It is okay thought, about 10k hps per sec that you gain mana with, you do not just stay in tiger stance.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    After so many zeros i end up adding to much..I think blizzard has the same problem. You stance dance to gain mana, not to get good dps or hps. It is okay thought, about 10k hps per sec that you gain mana with, you do not just stay in tiger stance.
    i understand that was for regen mana, but i was trying to understand if we can do that only in very low damage phases or if somehow it was viable even in other phases
    btw, doesn't things get better if we use an agi staff in tiger stance?

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by saeros View Post
    i understand that was for regen mana, but i was trying to understand if we can do that only in very low damage phases or if somehow it was viable even in other phases
    btw, doesn't things get better if we use an agi staff in tiger stance?
    Why...? the only reason he's saying to stance dance like that is because Jab has an energy cost in tiger stance and you can retain one chi switching over to regain mana through spending it in SotWS.
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  4. #404
    requesting topic title change to Jab Nerfed Again and Again and Again. thank you

  5. #405
    If you want to fistweave and do comparable healing to a regular, non-dpsing healer, forget it. That's what they're most worried about. The deal has always been that healers can do damage, but at a tradeoff in actual healing, which is not true with fistweaving on live and is the real problem with Jab-Jab-Uplift.

    I'm not sure if they've provided us with a viable way to generate Chi outside of Jab, though. The buffs to Soothing were nice, especially since I found it already fairly dependable for what I used it for - single target. However, using Soothing to do AOE healing doesn't sound very good. It just doesn't fit a lot of damage patterns - "Oh the boss is about to do a big AOE hit I better channel Soothing on a full hp tank to generate some Chi so I can Uplift".

    It sounds to me like we're between a rock (The devs want us to choose between healing and fistweaving) and a hard place (there are times that we need more than just the baseline chi - not often, but we do - ). I don't think Soothing is the right direction, but perhaps that will come out through testing and we'll see some better options for Chi generation.

    The note definitely belongs in the 'DPS tuning' section - they're worried that Fistweaving is too good, and when enrage timers are tight, there's too much incentive to stack Monks (and Priests).

  6. #406
    Ok, they now have completely separated fistweaving from mistweaving. That's fine.
    They also changed (well, maybe) the chi generation for mistweavers. That's great.

    It would be great if they would give as a usable AoE heal. SCK is extremely raid-size, raid-composition and encounter dependend as it is right now. It has the greatest improvement potential. So in my idea, they should remove the range for SCK healing - so you can heal everyone in 40m range, but the damage radius should stay the same. And just like effloresence, it doesn't split its healing between all players in range, but it heals the five most injured for the full amount.
    It would be like a mixture of circle of healing and prayer of healing. The mana cost should be changed accordingly. While it is a great tool, making it too cheap would cause the "disc effect", where people would be spamming it completely independend from the encounter. I think it would be in a good position when it would compete with holys using prayer of healing - not something you cast all the time, but if the encounter demands it, you might want to add it in your healing rotation, or in phases of great raid damage you would spam it several times buring your mana quickly, but followed by some regeneration time.

    It might also be a "perk" to your SCK, you have to activate it via some new tea that costs two chi, but has no CD. So during TBT, you would prefer using uplift with greater hps, but without TBT you would use your chi for the enhanced SCK.

  7. #407
    I just dont get it lol,

    8% mana cost for jab from 4.
    21% for uplift up from 8 (which was already pretty unused)

    Can blizzard really not see that our problems are bigger then just some mana costs?
    21!!% mana needed just to stop it being abusable?
    The fact that all they are doing is spamming seeingly random numbers on things lets me to think more and more then they have no clue what they want. When the dev team sits in a meeting to discuss how to solve MW problems all they can come up with is "double all mana costs and then refund it again if your a good boy" ?

    Edited uplift value. it was even worse then i remembered ^^
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2013-02-22 at 02:25 PM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    If you want to fistweave and do comparable healing to a regular, non-dpsing healer, forget it. That's what they're most worried about. The deal has always been that healers can do damage, but at a tradeoff in actual healing, which is not true with fistweaving on live and is the real problem with Jab-Jab-Uplift.

    I'm not sure if they've provided us with a viable way to generate Chi outside of Jab, though. The buffs to Soothing were nice, especially since I found it already fairly dependable for what I used it for - single target. However, using Soothing to do AOE healing doesn't sound very good. It just doesn't fit a lot of damage patterns - "Oh the boss is about to do a big AOE hit I better channel Soothing on a full hp tank to generate some Chi so I can Uplift".

    It sounds to me like we're between a rock (The devs want us to choose between healing and fistweaving) and a hard place (there are times that we need more than just the baseline chi - not often, but we do - ). I don't think Soothing is the right direction, but perhaps that will come out through testing and we'll see some better options for Chi generation.

    The note definitely belongs in the 'DPS tuning' section - they're worried that Fistweaving is too good, and when enrage timers are tight, there's too much incentive to stack Monks (and Priests).
    What are those buffs to soothing mist everyone is talking about? I logged in on the ptr and soothing mist is still 30% chi gen like always.

  9. #409
    Reliability. They added reliability. It was just 30% before, now it is reliable 30%.

  10. #410
    What are those buffs to soothing mist everyone is talking about? I logged in on the ptr and soothing mist is still 30% chi gen like always.
    Here's the note:

    Monk – In efforts to further discourage Jab, Jab, Uplift, we increased the mana cost of Jab from 6% to 8%, increased the mana restore on Muscle Memory from 2% to 4%, and increased the mana cost of glyphed Uplift to 16% mana. So that monks feel like they can be less reliant on Jab, Jab, Uplift, we also changed Soothing Mist to generate chi more consistently (to avoid long stretches of bad luck) and increased its generation rate overall.
    It sounds like they're going to add in some sort of manipulation of the proc chance (something like what some folks have suggested, like each tick has an increasing chance to proc a Chi point until you actually proc) and slightly increase its raw regeneration rate.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I just dont get it lol,

    8% mana cost for jab from 4.
    16% for uplift up from 8 (which was already pretty unused)

    Can blizzard really not see that our problems are bigger then just some mana costs?
    16!!% mana needed just to stop it being abusable?
    The fact that all they are doing is spamming seeingly random numbers on things lets me to think more and more then they have no clue what they want. When the dev team sits in a meeting to discuss how to solve MW problems all they can come up with is "double all mana costs and then refund it again if your a good boy" ?
    Glyphed Uplift is 21% mana

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithfin View Post
    Reliability. They added reliability. It was just 30% before, now it is reliable 30%.
    30% is 30%.
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  13. #413
    Just tried and there is NO change for Soothing, you can still have 1 chi or 5 chi in 8sec

    kinda fun they don't forget to nerf jab but they forget to improve what needs to be improved

  14. #414
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    I don't like to repeat my self, but does anyone get a nice idea how to handle for example bosses like Wind Lord Mel'jarak. I dont see any chance to keep the raid up without Jap/Jap/Uplift. I was thinking about some options but all optoins left me beeing oom within seconds (SCK) or simple the raid dies cause Im not building chi fast enough for uplift spam (remember uplift only heals for 20-30k). Even with garateed 3 chi for SM the GCD + the time it tages to gain those 3 chi is to long to keep an raid up with only 20-30k raid heals.

    Serious Im so fucking afraid that this class will be broken in 5.2 and cause of this small comunity they never will change it.

    And I really liked the mix of Fistweaving + Mistweaving *sadface*

  15. #415
    This is getting frustrating. As one of the two main healers in a 10m progression guild I'm at a loss. There is an appeal to Mistweavers that I think those of us who play one understand, whether its the synergy of their spells, or the flexibility of the playstyle or any other reason. But the fact of the matter is that as it currently stands, pre 5.2, Mistweavers have by far the least control of their healing distribution of any healing class. Whether it be Eminence, mastery spheres, ReM jumps etc. In 10m, especially on 2 heal fights, you need to have the flexibility to be able to help tank/single target heal when needed, while being able to raid heal. We simply don't have the tools to handle spiky single target damage consistently, which is fine, I have no qualms with a class not being really strong in all facets of healing. We excel at raid healing, especially when the raid is spread out and we have enough tools to help out with some single target healing, but we won't be mistaken with a Paladin anytime soon.

    The reason Mistweavers use jab for chi is that the demands of certain fights, especially heroic fights, require burst healing that simply channeling Soothing and relying on the rng gods to grant us the chi we need will lead to wipes that simply wouldn't have happened with any other healer in the game. Jabbing was one of the few means of control that Mistweavers have and removing that from our arsenal without providing us with a consistent and reliable means to replace the chi control we are losing gimps us. GC states that in the newest build Jab now costs 8% mana and Glyph of Uplift 21%(lol) and then gives an incredibly vague statement that soothing mist will be more reliable and generate more chi without providing any details on how it will do so. A flat increase of the 30% chance we currently have? A guaranteed chi every x ticks?

    They seem intent on molding Mistweavers into a purely rng healer by stacking rng on top of rng on top of more rng. We already value crit above other secondary stats, we have almost no control over who ReM is gonna jump to or who is going to get healed via Eminence and now we are going to have to rely on rng to get the chi we need to heal effectively? Some rng isn't a terrible thing for a healer, but having a healer based completely around rng is a disaster.

    So here we are scratching our heads, brainstorming about dark chi, the math of stance dancing, or just laughing at the hilarity of the situation for Mistweavers. Blizzard has this idea of what they want Mistweavers to be and they are trying to reconcile this idea with the way Mistweavers have actually turned out and it simply isn't working. We are only 5 months removed from when monk healers went live and this spec is already in need of a complete overhaul. The changes they are trying to implement on this class should not be made in a mid expansion patch. Trying to force a square object into a round hole doesn't typically work out too well. Was "Jab Jab Uplift" the idea they had for this class? Obviously not. But with the way they designed Mistweavers its what they ended up with. With the exception of pre 5.1 when Mistweavers were healing gods, we are sitting middle of the pack as it currently stands. It makes far more sense to work with the class the way it turned out. If Blizz wants to bring Mistweaver closer in line with the image they had for them then that's fine! That's their right, but do so for the next expansion. Doing it now leaves Mistweavers with the very real possibility of not being viable for any sort of progression based raiding(outside of purely gimmicky fights) this tier.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakk View Post
    Just tried and there is NO change for Soothing, you can still have 1 chi or 5 chi in 8sec

    kinda fun they don't forget to nerf jab but they forget to improve what needs to be improved
    No reason to even jab now since it cost the same as surging mist which gives you a chi and soothing mist might give you chi. Thanks bliz for killing my class. Nerf me another time and ill just ScK myself to uplift!
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  17. #417
    Does anyone think that if Blizzard created a CD that allows you to burst your healing spheres and AoE heal, that would help the situation?

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Does anyone think that if Blizzard created a CD that allows you to burst your healing spheres and AoE heal, that would help the situation?
    Revival helps with aoe helps.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  19. #419
    Even if Soothing Mist had a 100% chance to generate 1 Chi per tick it would still be terrible. Think about this for a minute, our main source of "efficient" Chi generation is going to be a channeled spell?!?! This absolutely DESTROYS our mobility. To heal on the run we will have to be Nostradamus and plan to have capped Chi before we move and then pray to everything that is holy that Renewing Mist is on the people that take damage just so we can Uplift and try to save them. Better yet, it will make Chi Brew mandatory as an "Oh shit" button so we have Chi on demand for those heavy damage while moving periods of an encounter.

    This will also lead to a lot of wasted Chi because we will have to weigh the consequences of spending Chi when we cap vs. "Do I have time to generate the Chi I spend right now before I have to move."

    The 100% Chi after X ticks doesn't work because we have to break channel on Soothing Mist to cast Renewing Mist on CD, unless they change that which I think we all know they won't. Chi Wave/Burst come to mind here too.

    Penance is balanced because its a fast channel and heals on cast (?) and other classes have faster cast lesser heals that won't break the mana bank if they throw out 3 or 4 of them (unlike Surging Mist).

    At this point they should remove Chi all together, remove the Renewing Mist requirement for Uplift and make Uplift a mirror image of Circle of Healing because that's what we are at this point, just another healing class with no real uniqueness to it anymore.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
    Penance is balanced because its a fast channel and heals on cast (?) and other classes have faster cast lesser heals that won't break the mana bank if they throw out 3 or 4 of them (unlike Surging Mist).
    This is a probelm; in pvp right now for us. Our line of mist gives people a `please interpt this guy` sign over my head.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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