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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Despite the nerfs, at least on twin consorts and Lei Shen, I'm under the impression that MW are absurdly overpowered. Our TFT lines up exactly with thunderstruck on Lei Shen, and 2pc t15 makes ReM godlike. I was crushing the other healers by around 30-45k on average on both of those fights, which are the only fights I've had a chance to test with the new changes. ReM is now significantly more powerful than uplift (even on burst fights like lei shen, which is absurd), and Chi Torpedo hasn't been touched, so on fights where that's usable the percent of throughput lost is smaller. Ultimately, our ability to heal while moving with uplift/tft/chi brew seems to be giving us the ability to shit on other healers, even w/o jab being a reasonable mana cost. To give an idea, I was doing 120k~ on average on twin consorts, and 90-100k on Lei Shen. Both of these fights my mana never went down. There is basically nothing to spam or use thats worth casting as far as I'm concerned. Hit ReM/Chi Torpedo/EH on CD, line TFT up with boss mechanics, outheal every other healer with ReM averaging 90k raw HPS (Before overhealing of course). Some of the most braindead play I've encountered, face roll for around 80% of the fight so long as you hit the previous CD's at the right time and you can do whatever you want (and they're so cheap/built into our mana costs that you'll have PLENTY of free mana left to cast whatever makes you feel like you're actually playing a real class. But whatever you cast won't make up but, say, 15-20% of your total healing, assumng you include uplift from ReM/EH CD's in the above healing.)

    I lack the ability to put how I feel about the class into proper words, but without the ability to generate chi reliably and quickly, I feel like there's little player input required anymore. It just doesn't even make a difference. ReM takes rsham healing rain to a whole new level of (effective) passive healing. I'm not even reforged properly into haste for the next tick etc, and it's blowing everything out of the water, it's as silly as the 24k mana cost on jab.
    Cause that won't get nerfed in a heartbeat. Then what?

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    And if you want more chi faster you have to spend more mana. Isn't this a good thing?
    It's not a question of us needing chi faster as if it was some sort of blanket increase, it's a question of having to blast through 40-60k mana to stabilize your tank.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 05:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Despite the nerfs, at least on twin consorts and Lei Shen, I'm under the impression that MW are absurdly overpowered. Our TFT lines up exactly with thunderstruck on Lei Shen, and 2pc t15 makes ReM godlike. I was crushing the other healers by around 30-45k on average on both of those fights, which are the only fights I've had a chance to test with the new changes. ReM is now significantly more powerful than uplift (even on burst fights like lei shen, which is absurd), and Chi Torpedo hasn't been touched, so on fights where that's usable the percent of throughput lost is smaller. Ultimately, our ability to heal while moving with uplift/tft/chi brew seems to be giving us the ability to shit on other healers, even w/o jab being a reasonable mana cost. To give an idea, I was doing 120k~ on average on twin consorts, and 90-100k on Lei Shen. Both of these fights my mana never went down. There is basically nothing to spam or use thats worth casting as far as I'm concerned. Hit ReM/Chi Torpedo/EH on CD, line TFT up with boss mechanics, outheal every other healer with ReM averaging 90k raw HPS (Before overhealing of course). Some of the most braindead play I've encountered, face roll for around 80% of the fight so long as you hit the previous CD's at the right time and you can do whatever you want (and they're so cheap/built into our mana costs that you'll have PLENTY of free mana left to cast whatever makes you feel like you're actually playing a real class. But whatever you cast won't make up but, say, 15-20% of your total healing, assumng you include uplift from ReM/EH CD's in the above healing.)

    I lack the ability to put how I feel about the class into proper words, but without the ability to generate chi reliably and quickly, I feel like there's little player input required anymore. It just doesn't even make a difference. ReM takes rsham healing rain to a whole new level of (effective) passive healing. I'm not even reforged properly into haste for the next tick etc, and it's blowing everything out of the water, it's as silly as the 24k mana cost on jab.
    Would be very interested in seeing logs if there are any, not questioning you I'm just curious.
    Last edited by Reglitch; 2013-02-26 at 05:36 PM.
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  3. #563
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Apparently the new formula is 15% + 15% per tick, resetting when we get chi.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Apparently the new formula is 15% + 15% per tick, resetting when we get chi.
    It should be 40% and then 20% more proc chance for every tick you don't get chi.

    Maybe 10% instead of 20%, I dunno, the proc rate needs to be higher than 15% + 15% for every tick you don't get chi..

  5. #565
    15% + 15% per tick,
    Finally sounds more like a nerf...

    25% + 25% per tick is the minimum they had to do

    33% +33% per tick was the good think to do

    15%+15%/tick is like = you have 100% chance to have 1 chi every 6 tick ? a full channeling ? that's really not enought AT ALL

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Apparently the new formula is 15% + 15% per tick, resetting when we get chi.
    The instant tick from Soothing Mist now has an 85% chance to not have generated chi.
    2nd tick - 59.5% chance to not have had chi yet
    3rd tick - 32.7% chance to not have had chi yet
    4th tick - 13.09% chance to not have had chi yet

    Contrast that with a static 30%:

    Instant - 70%
    2nd tick - 49%
    3rd tick - 34.3%
    4th tick - 24.01%


    They think that this is supposed to help. They've actually nerfed the generation from the first and second ticks. Sure, it's more consistent now... more consistently on the 3rd or 4th tick rather than the 1st or 2nd.

  7. #567
    Are you sure the first tick doesn't have "one" as the 15% per tick, being 30%? Can anyone test this? Clip the cast before it can tick again, and measure the proc rate? Er...maybe that won't even work, does it care about prior ticks even if they weren't from the same channel?

    We need more detail.

  8. #568
    I don't think it's possible to take logs on the PTR. I gave the general breakdown of my healing, but it's basically ReM/uplift on twin consorts, ReM/uplift/Chi Torpedo on lei shen. The other 25% is mastery/sck/expel/SoM/etc.
    ReM being clearly > Uplift on both fights, in terms of raw healing.
    If anyone can tell me how to save logs from PTR, I can save them next testing.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Are you sure the first tick doesn't have "one" as the 15% per tick, being 30%?
    I don't think so. That would result in a massive increase in chi generation from Soothing, but their goal is to just make it more consistent, which it is.

  10. #570
    So you didn't use any T30 talents at all?
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  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I don't think so. That would result in a massive increase in chi generation from Soothing, but their goal is to just make it more consistent, which it is.
    GC also said they wanted to increase the proc rate overall, didn't he? Am I making that up?

    Edit: Yep.

    Soothing Mists now generates chi more consistently and average generation rate is slightly higher.

    And based on the measured results posted earlier, the average chi per channel has gone up.
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2013-02-26 at 06:55 PM.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    It should be 40% and then 20% more proc chance for every tick you don't get chi.

    Maybe 10% instead of 20%, I dunno, the proc rate needs to be higher than 15% + 15% for every tick you don't get chi..
    Maybe i got something wrong, but if the initial tick had more chance to generate chi, we would recast SM always after the first tick. And that would be pretty stupid for such a long channeling


    I love the fact that GC dedicated his post almost entirely to mistweavers monks but refused to comment all the requests asking for new chi dumpers, 40yd eminence, shitty lvl30 talents and so on...
    Last edited by Cyndy; 2013-02-26 at 07:00 PM.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I don't think so. That would result in a massive increase in chi generation from Soothing, but their goal is to just make it more consistent, which it is.
    15% + 15% = 30%, similar to the proc chance of static 30%. The formula states 15% + 15% per tick, thus I also think that the first heal counts as first tick.

  14. #574
    Also, even if it was 30% on the first, 45% on the second, etc. it wouldn't increase the average generation rate that much. Each of those higher-chance events are predicated on other, low-chance events to happen first. It's a conditional probability problem. The end proc rate will be a little bit higher than 30%, but not very much higher than 30%. Based on the posted data, there's an average of 3.18 Chi per 9 ticks, for an aggregate average proc rate of 35%. A straight 30% proc chance would be 2.7 Chi per 9 ticks, for comparison.

    It'd be nice to know if the proc rate only cares about ticks on your current channel, however. That may be something that only GC can answer - pulling it out of measured data would be rather annoying.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    GC also said they wanted to increase the proc rate overall, didn't he? Am I making that up?

    Edit: Yep.

    Soothing Mists now generates chi more consistently and average generation rate is slightly higher.

    And based on the measured results posted earlier, the average chi per channel has gone up.
    No, that's correct, but let me get into this more. It does actually increase the total generation with the 15% + 15% by severely decreasing the possibilities of not getting chi for 5+ ticks.

    The instant tick from Soothing Mist now has an 85% chance to not have generated chi.
    2nd tick - 59.5% chance to not have had chi yet
    3rd tick - 32.7% chance to not have had chi yet
    4th tick - 13.09% chance to not have had chi yet
    5th tick - 3.27%
    6th tick - 0.327%
    7th tick - 0%

    Contrast that with a static 30%:

    Instant - 70%
    2nd tick - 49%
    3rd tick - 34.3%
    4th tick - 24.01%
    5th tick - 16.8%
    6th tick - 11.76%
    7th tick - 8.24%
    8th tick - 5.76%
    9th tick - 4.04%
    10th tick - 2.82%

    And it keeps going on and on forever. Lopping that entire possibility past 7 ticks off and cutting the standard deviation considerably does in fact make it more consistent and have a slightly higher mathematical chance for chi. Just because I'm on a roll here, let's look at how ridiculous it would be with a 30% base + 15% per tick:

    Instant - 70%
    2nd - 38.5%
    3rd - 15.4%
    4th - 3.85%
    5th - 0.385%
    6th - 0%

    That's an obvious massive increase in chi generation. It would put Soothing Mist at less mana per chi than Expel Harm, which would just be ridiculous and would cut out all semblance of mana spending for us.

  16. #576
    Your analysis is flawed, but in a subtle way. You have the pieces there, but you're fitting them together wrong. You note, accurately, that your chance on not having generated a chi up to and including the 5th tick is very small - .385%. But here's the thing: in order for that to happen, you had four ticks previous to the fifth where you now have not generated chi. The conditional probability for that is (not coincidentally) the number for the 4th tick, 3.85%. Which means that these allegedly high-likelihood chi generation events themselves don't happen very frequently. With the cap of 100%, we can actually model exactly what the long-term average proc rate would be. But just looking at the numbers that you gave, you can't just say that it's "ridiculous" - because you need to tie it in with the conditional probabilities.

    Based on the measured data posted earlier in the thread, they undoubtedly changed something between Live and when the poster took the measurements. And that resulted in the proc rate going up from 30% to about 35.3%, on average. I'm working on the full probability spread now - it being a finite set of probabilities makes it much simpler. Will post an update.

  17. #577
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    For a full channel:
    1 chi - 3.18%
    2 chi - 34.13%
    3 chi - 42.47%
    4 chi - 16.91%
    5 chi - 3.04%
    6 chi - 0.28%
    7 chi - 0.01%
    *8 and 9 chi are possible, but the chance is miniscule

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    So you didn't use any T30 talents at all?
    My bad, I used Zen Sphere for the extra HoT/reliable extra stack healing.

    However, I'm not used to placing it, and on both fights it would average 2-3 million healing when my ReM/uplift are averaging 20+ mil. It's part of the bottom %'s. As far as I'm concerned that tier is now minimally powerful in any extra healing after the nerd. (I suppose chi burst could be good for lei shen, but proper Zen Sphere would beat it if you timed 2 to explode whenever thunderstruck hits, assuming the raid even gets that low. Something to look into, CB might be better, but I like having something extra to cast, even if it's pretty insignificant.) Granted, Chi wave used to be overpowered when it averaged 400k healing/cast for free, but I think its something we need mechanically (a strong smart heal or an AoE smart heal, our lack of this is currently being remedied by...dwarfing the other healers HPS with ReM/uplift). I would gladly take that loss in HPS 400k/15 ~ 23k hps off of ReM and into chi wave as a smart heal.

    I think the disc DA absorb nerf is showing up on meters, and my ReM is eating a lot of that extra healing that disc was preventing previously. That is my guess as to why I'm showing up as 100k HPS easily. This tier has, in the fights I've been in at least, a lot of burst damage mechanics/movement mechanics/blanket healing, and nearly every one of them seems to line up perfectly with our CDs (TFT/CB/Revival). This is making us extremely strong, combined with 2pc, enough to offset whatever healing loss jab caused.

    It was really funny because I went in expecting to suck and feel like a wasted raid spot (except we had 23 for some of the testing, so any extra healing/dps from another player is helpful haha)...and then proceeded to crush meters while feeling like I had no idea what I was doing [getting used to SoM/SCK/less chi/less fistweaving/no chi wave, boss mechanics, etc] and I have plenty of room to optimize (though as time goes on other classes [esp. disc] tend to gain as much as we do, but theirs tend to push us off the meters and not the other way around.)

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    I think the disc DA absorb nerf is showing up on meters, and my ReM is eating a lot of that extra healing that disc was preventing previously.
    Okay, now THIS sticks out. Monks are blanket throughput healers, in the style that most of us play them as, and I think it's entirely possible that a lot of our healing is going to overheal due to disc priests that now will be registered as actual healing. Reduce the blanket preventers, and the blanket healers will get a lot of work for free.

    (now, whether those numbers on the meter are actually useful is another story)

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Your analysis is flawed, but in a subtle way. You have the pieces there, but you're fitting them together wrong. You note, accurately, that your chance on not having generated a chi up to and including the 5th tick is very small - .385%. But here's the thing: in order for that to happen, you had four ticks previous to the fifth where you now have not generated chi. The conditional probability for that is (not coincidentally) the number for the 4th tick, 3.85%. Which means that these allegedly high-likelihood chi generation events themselves don't happen very frequently. With the cap of 100%, we can actually model exactly what the long-term average proc rate would be. But just looking at the numbers that you gave, you can't just say that it's "ridiculous" - because you need to tie it in with the conditional probabilities.
    I am capable of estimation, this isn't the 3rd grade where I need to show my work to use common sense. I don't have to do a statistical probability spread analysis to see clearly that if it starts at 30%, the total generation chance is much more than "slightly increased", in fact you'll find that this specific case would end up being more than a 20% increase (30% to 36%), which I would classify as "ridiculous" considering the very brief test run at 35% was considered too powerful. If it does start at 30%, then the increase is way beyond "slight."

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