Jab Nerfed Again :D

[zito]

"Yes. To oversimplify, we don't want Jab, Jab, Uplift, nor do we want Soothe, Soothe, Tiger Palm. We want Fistweaving to provide significant damage and healing, but both should be less than an actual DPS spec or a traditional healer (again Atonement is the model). Fistweaving will be awesome for some situations, but we want it to be a compromise, otherwise, you'd want monks for all your healers, since you get all this bonus DPS on the side for no healing cost. In order to deliver on this, we have to make it harder to cherry pick some Fistweaving abilities and some Mistweaving abilities."

Well, this class has been ruined. See you all later!

So basically he wants us to fistweave when we half an over surplus of mana and then go to mistweaving when were low?

I don't get it.

[apepi]

"Yes. To oversimplify, we don't want Jab, Jab, Uplift, nor do we want Soothe, Soothe, Tiger Palm. We want Fistweaving to provide significant damage and healing, but both should be less than an actual DPS spec or a traditional healer (again Atonement is the model). Fistweaving will be awesome for some situations, but we want it to be a compromise, otherwise, you'd want monks for all your healers, since you get all this bonus DPS on the side for no healing cost. In order to deliver on this, we have to make it harder to cherry pick some Fistweaving abilities and some Mistweaving abilities."

Well, this class has been ruined. See you all later!

Atleast I got a reply from him:/.

[zito]

Atleast I got a reply from him:/.

"hey guyz we don't want fistweaving to be viable 100% of the time nor do we want it's dps more then attonement so instead of nerfing damage that we buffed we increasing the mana cost cause that will fix it"

Almost as bad as his "chakra for a holy priest is a resource" statement.

[Thedweller]

I think it's clear what their intention is, they are just going about it in a weird way. They want a commitment to either traditional caster healing, or Fistweaving, at least in the short term. If you try to mix it up too much, and just pick the best elements of casting and fistweaving you'll see a loss of some kind. They are trying to make it only really reasonable to fistweave if you intend to fistweave for a bit. No more jabbing to get quick and easy chi, at least not without a high cost.

I think the goal is fine, but players will always be upset when they do something novel and interesting, and then it gets taken away for being outside Blizzard's intentions.

[Deleted]

Except they're only going through with completely dry fucking the spec, they don't want pure fistweaving to heal or dps as much as a pure of either role but they're completely destroying our actual healing as a cost, not only in terms of numbers but also playstyle. Who is going to pause everything they're doing at melee range to start hardcasting soothing fucking mists of all things and not feel clunky as shit just because pressing jab again costs them a significant portion of mana.

[gynshon]

Again with the clueless devs. They don't understand how things should be tuned at all. Oh, this heals for 150k, thats too much, lets drop it to 10k and see how that works. Oops, ok after a couple weeks, 10k was too much of a nerf, lets shoot for 140k. Yea that sounds good. Dan,g thats too much healing. Ok, what about 20k? Did we try that yet? Ok, 20k it is. Oops it is too low. How about 130k?

What they need to do is small increments at a time and let people test it thoroughly. Small tweaks, are better than the massive ones they usually do.

[Deleted]

I think it's clear what their intention is, they are just going about it in a weird way. They want a commitment to either traditional caster healing, or Fistweaving, at least in the short term. If you try to mix it up too much, and just pick the best elements of casting and fistweaving you'll see a loss of some kind. They are trying to make it only really reasonable to fistweave if you intend to fistweave for a bit. No more jabbing to get quick and easy chi, at least not without a high cost.

I think the goal is fine, but players will always be upset when they do something novel and interesting, and then it gets taken away for being outside Blizzard's intentions.

That's it though, monk isn't supposed to be relegated to either one. What is the point in playing a "melee oriented healer" if I can only play it when there's no damage going out on the raid?

[Totaltotemic]

That's it though, monk isn't supposed to be relegated to either one. What is the point in playing a "melee oriented healer" if I can only play it when there's no damage going out on the raid?

This is exactly the problem. If you make Fistweaving something we have to dedicate ourselves to doing at the moment, then Monks are just Druids with half the toolkit replaced by a terrible Attonement wanna-be.

[openair]

what other class need to use that much of a resource to get 1 of their combopoints/chi/holy power?

lol... No other class uses Chi. Combopoint generators do not cost mana. Holy power? Holy shock: 16% of base mana. Yea mistweavers have it bad. lol

[Deleted]

Not even, it's just there's such stark contrast between the two styles it just plays so terribly going from one to the other I can't be the only one that feels this.

It should be hierarchic, like the lowest form of healing is Serpent's Zeal which is low damage, low healing but high mana regeneration. Next tier should be fistweaving, which provides moderate healing, moderate damage and low regeneration but also has SZ as a base. Tier after that should have SZ + Fistweaving as a base but also have an option to toggle tiger palm/BoK to enhance healing spells for a moderate/high cost instead of triggering SZ/Mana Return and also reduce damage done for x seconds.

There you go, a fistweaving playstyle which wouldn't bring the best of both worlds! Imagine that!

[Thedweller]

That's it though, monk isn't supposed to be relegated to either one. What is the point in playing a "melee oriented healer" if I can only play it when there's no damage going out on the raid?

I look at it this way, Atonement healing isn't something a priest regularly slips into their healing rotation either (as far as I know, it's been at least 1 expansion since I played it). But, when healing need is lighter, you can work in some dps without completely neglecting your healing.

I see the changes, once they get the numbers right, is making Fistweaving more useful when the situation calls for it, but also something we should avoid when the situation calls for full caster mode. Less some middle ground in between where it's not really good on it's own, yet you have to use parts of it as a caster if you want to maximize your potential.

[Deleted]

That's it though, "full caster mode" isn't what I play this class for and it wasn't what the class was supposed to ever be, and in it's current implementation caster mode is just plain shit.

[Totaltotemic]

That's it though, "full caster mode" isn't what I play this class for and it wasn't what the class was supposed to ever be, and in it's current implementation caster mode is just plain shit.

Yeah, when we can't melee it's either SCK and go OOM, or spread Renewing Mists and stand around looking pretty until you have enough Chi to Uplift. There's literally nothing else we can do.

[Deleted]

SCK is just the best, 5 people injured and you're not lucky enough to have ReM on them? Better top them up with those sick 2k ticks or hope your other healers have had an aneurysm so you can maybe get an enveloping on one!

[Lucetia]

what other class need to use that much of a resource to get 1 of their combopoints/chi/holy power?

Since Jab is just 1 one of getting it and you want to know what other class? Holy Paladins spend 21k mana to get 1 Holy Power from Holy Radiance, I know Holy Shock is like 8 or 9k mana and not sure about Divine Light's cost (since it only gives if beaconed).

[Deleted]

Since Jab is just 1 one of getting it and you want to know what other class? Holy Paladins spend 21k mana to get 1 Holy Power from Holy Radiance, I know Holy Shock is like 8 or 9k mana and not sure about Divine Light's cost (since it only gives if beaconed).

Your significant healing spells have an additional cost tacked on because they also generate an additional resource for free healing? How interesting sounds like a familiar mechanic... I mean of course without any significant healing for us but hey!

[Abysal]

If you want to keep track however, here are recent changes: Mana cost of glyph of Uplift +21%, Mana cost of Jab +33%, Teachings of the Monastery now provides 2% mana to Tiger Palm

Jab went from 12000 mana to 13500, but now TP gives back 6000 instead of 3000 or 7020 instead of 3510 with Ascension and the max mana meta gem.

So the cost of Jab went up by 1500 mana, but the mana you get back from Jab->TP is going up by 3000 (3510). On balance this should be more MP5 when Fistweaving. It seems they are trying to encourage fistweaving and discourage "zealweaving." Heal through eminence or heal traditionally. They apparently don't want us using Eminence and other heals at the same time.

If you Jab->TP->Jab->TP 8 times followed by mana tea, you'll have spent 108000 mana and gotten back 84240 with Ascension+Meta. This would take 17 seconds to do. That's a 23760 mana deficit in 17 seconds. Spirit is 0.56 MP5 or 0.112 mana per second. 23760/17=1397. It would take 12479 spirit to do this forever without going OOM. But that's ignoring crit for the extra Mana Tea stacks, ignoring spending GCDs on BoK, ignoring using your free T2 spender every 15/30/16s depending on which one you took, and assumes no movement whatsoever.

Just adding in 12.5% crit in a pure TP rotation gives you back 3510 mana on average in that 17s rotation. That lowers your deficit to 1192 and reduces your spirit requirement to 10636.

12.5% crit and 10636 spirit is going to be nothing by the end of 5.2. I don't think it'd need to even be that high when factoring in a free Chi Wave every 15s and mana gained while moving, and trinket procs. I plan on running with ~8k spirit and stacking crit as high as I can on Fistweave fights, and maybe holding a few haste pieces to switch to on ReM fights to get to the breakpoint.

[Deleted]

Jab went from 12000 mana to 13500, but now TP gives back 6000 instead of 3000 or 7020 instead of 3510 with Ascension and the max mana meta gem.

Since when was 12000 to 13500 a 33% increase. It went from 13500 in an earlier build to 18000. At least, in their internal builds.

[Abysal]

Since when was 12000 to 13500 a 33% increase. It went from 13500 in an earlier build to 18000. At least, in their internal builds.

The patch notes updated today say 4.5% mana cost.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/822...013#class_monk

That was one of the changes they made on today's notes so I was basing it on that. We don't know if GC means 33% from the last build or 33% increase from live or from some build in between. Maybe you're right. We'll see. FWIW GC also said not to worry about those numbers right now because they are still being tuned. They obviously don't want mana to be infinite, especially when Fistweaving, otherwise any monk could just burn their mana during hard times and then go Jab->TP to regen. They also obviously don't want it to be so costly that it's not viable. Ascension is a big part of the problem with balancing it as it greatly increases the MP5 of Jab->TP with TP giving back 2% mana now.

It'll also be interesting to see how the legendary meta gem works with Fistweaving. Whats the realppm going to be and will Jab consume the free spell buff?

[Deleted]

Sigh, Blizzard's testing process goes from internal -> external [ptr] -> repeat until satisfactory -> live. Right now on an internal build they have increased the mana cost a further 33%. I think it could be a flat 33% from 11800 or whatever it was which would actually make more sense given it would put the 2% mana return around the right spot to make jab cost 9k) the cost of the uplift glyph by 21% and reduced the effectiveness of our 4 piece bonus. The problem is GC has explicitly said they're going to break it, and that means that they're going to break it.