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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt.
    If the playstyles that I enjoy and that drew me to the class in the first place are being made no longer effective, then I'd say that does qualify as the sky falling.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by sakk View Post
    AND, if you think you can change our jab-jab-uplift to sck-sck-uplift i think you're wrong
    If devs don't want that kind of gameplay they will make SCK cost about 25% mana in less time it takes to say it
    SCK costs more than double the base mana that Jab costs on live today. In terms of effective mana after Mana Tea, it's around triple live Jab. It's ignorant to say that we can just switch and we'll be fine.

  3. #303
    The point is that the only aoe heal on demand which stay viable seems the Holy blessed Torpedo

    ( till they nerf it ofc)

  4. #304
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    I found a way to gain free mana with memory muscle with stance dancing. You still gain memory muscle in tiger stance so with you switch back into serpent stance and use tigers palm(remember you still are allowed 1 chi if you change stances) so it is pretty much manaless. The only problem I found is that in tiger stance you do not get hit from spirit and your jabs can miss. Here is a macro I have made up.
    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=4 Stance of the Fierce Tiger, Jab, Stance of the Wise Serpent, Tiger Palm
    If you end up trying to tigers palm and you have no chi to do so it means you have missed a jab. It is possible to get full mana(from zero) in a minute and 21 seconds depending on if you do not miss. It can be very hit or miss sometimes(literally) but maybe it could help us with mana. I also did about 21k dps and I am guessing 10.5k hps(without using chi wave though so it could be higher).
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I found a way to gain free mana with memory muscle with stance dancing. You still gain memory muscle in tiger stance so with you switch back into serpent stance and use tigers palm(remember you still are allowed 1 chi if you change stances) so it is pretty much manaless. The only problem I found is that in tiger stance you do not get hit from spirit and your jabs can miss. Here is a macro I have made up.

    If you end up trying to tigers palm and you have no chi to do so it means you have missed a jab. It is possible to get full mana(from zero) in a minute and 21 seconds depending on if you do not miss. It can be very hit or miss sometimes(literally) but maybe it could help us with mana. I also did about 21k dps and I am guessing 10.5k hps(without using chi wave though so it could be higher).
    Okay, now this is just stupid. No no, apepi, I don't mean you, or your post, or your idea. I mean the fact that this idea works, and might even be a good one.

    Why can't they have a system that is simply functional, and doesn't encourage us to work around it, instead of within it?

  6. #306
    Can do about 5 jabs befor my energy bar depletes, thats a pretty awsome glitch. Makes the nurfs to jab bearable. Can probably even switch back to Serpent Stance to Tigers palm after the jab for the extra healing.
    Last edited by Coraulten; 2013-02-20 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Okay, now this is just stupid. No no, apepi, I don't mean you, or your post, or your idea. I mean the fact that this idea works, and might even be a good one.

    Why can't they have a system that is simply functional, and doesn't encourage us to work around it, instead of within it?
    It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.
    Then why did GC say early in the 5.2 PTR process that the intent was to provide Mistweavers with both a healing and damage buff? I can go find the quote, if you want, but I'm sure you know the one I mean.

    Sigh. This is frustrating.

  9. #309
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.
    I would not say it is an exploit, it is just unintended. Memory muscle could be used in tiger stance before they they added the mana to it instead of TP.
    Heres my math for it,
    Each TP gives me 6900 mana so it takes me about 4 seconds to get that so it would be 1725 mana per second. But since I am using chi I would also gain mana teas so it would be about 1 mana tea per 16 seconds, I gain 13800 mana per teas so that would equal about 862.5 mana per second which both would add up to 2587.5 mana per second(?). I normally gain about 695.2 mana per second with spirit but since I would not be in serpent stance all the time it would be about 347.6, so in all it would be about 2935.1 mana per second if you do not miss a jab. My math might be off though, I am kinda in a hurry.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I would not say it is an exploit, it is just unintended. Memory muscle could be used in tiger stance before they they added the mana to it instead of TP.
    Heres my math for it,
    Each TP gives me 6900 mana so it takes me about 4 seconds to get that so it would be 1725 mana per second. But since I am using chi I would also gain mana teas so it would be about 1 mana tea per 16 seconds, I gain 13800 mana per teas so that would equal about 862.5 mana per second which both would add up to 2587.5 mana per second(?). I normally gain about 695.2 mana per second with spirit but since I would not be in serpent stance all the time it would be about 347.6, so in all it would be about 2935.1 mana per second if you do not miss a jab. My math might be off though, I am kinda in a hurry.
    welp if this goes thru like this, which it probably wont, lets hope theres enough down time during fights to actually pull off a couple rounds of the macro

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Then why did GC say early in the 5.2 PTR process that the intent was to provide Mistweavers with both a healing and damage buff? I can go find the quote, if you want, but I'm sure you know the one I mean.

    Sigh. This is frustrating.
    I remember the quote, he said it was a damage and healing buff to Fistweaving, which it is. Unfortunately by doing everything they possibly can to quarantine Fistweaving into its own, separate playstyle has gutted regular Mistweaver healing, as we've been relying on Jab since beta.

  12. #312
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I remember the quote, he said it was a damage and healing buff to Fistweaving, which it is. Unfortunately by doing everything they possibly can to quarantine Fistweaving into its own, separate playstyle has gutted regular Mistweaver healing, as we've been relying on Jab since beta.
    I think it is funny how they try so hard for it not work, they end up messing it up anyways. I still like my suggestion about dark chi, it would be the easiest way to go around this without having jab at a crazy amount of mana and the wierd Memory Muscle buff. Then you could just give our healing spells an actual reliable chi generator.

    There is a point here where blizzard is making it too complex. Pretty much killing KISS/Occam's razor, Blizzard you have to keep it simple, all this having to increase the mana on jab and giving mana back by fisting is just too chaotic.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I think it is funny how they try so hard for it not work, they end up messing it up anyways. I still like my suggestion about dark chi, it would be the easiest way to go around this without having jab at a crazy amount of mana and the wierd Memory Muscle buff. Then you could just give our healing spells an actual reliable chi generator.

    There is a point here where blizzard is making it too complex. Pretty much killing KISS/Occam's razor, Blizzard you have to keep it simple, all this having to increase the mana on jab and giving mana back by fisting is just too chaotic.
    It's funny, because I was the person in the PTR issues thread that originally suggested tying the mana regen mechanic to Muscle Memory instead of TP because we would abuse it if it was on TP from other means. If we end up abusing the Muscle Memory proc again through different means, the simplest fix would be to simply disable TP and BoK by default and only enable their use via Muscle Memory, kind of like how Overpower works. Regardless of what they do to keep Fistweaving separate, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when people start using only Fistweaving or SCK to heal because nothing else works anymore.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's funny, because I was the person in the PTR issues thread that originally suggested tying the mana regen mechanic to Muscle Memory instead of TP because we would abuse it if it was on TP from other means. If we end up abusing the Muscle Memory proc again through different means, the simplest fix would be to simply disable TP and BoK by default and only enable their use via Muscle Memory, kind of like how Overpower works. Regardless of what they do to keep Fistweaving separate, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when people start using only Fistweaving or SCK to heal because nothing else works anymore.
    I suggested that they also should give to BoK but I just hate MM. I am considering sharing my info in the ptr thread, because while stance changing is goodish on mana, it is not really that fun(though bliz could read these forums also..). If they don't, I dub this stance changing technique(?) the Fierce Serpent dance.

    Though it is somewhat ironic how I am not really going to even use this because I pvp, I don't pve.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  15. #315
    The Lightbringer Reglitch's Avatar
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    From Greg's twitter;
    Uplift now costs 10 Valor.

    lol.

  16. #316
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    From Greg's twitter;
    Uplift now costs 10 Valor.

    lol.
    Are the devs drunk again?
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  17. #317
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Are the devs drunk again?
    That's just his sense of humor. He doesn't put it out there much and when he does most people don't get it.

  18. #318
    Been doing some analysis of our tier 30 talents and it appears that Zen Sphere's healing output is still modestly superior to Chi Burst, but they are close enough to make Chi Burst a contender for fights where burst is helpful or where the HoT portion would mostly go to waste. It also looks like Chi Wave is still very far behind and is only about half as strong as the other options, meaning that unless we're approaching 50% overheal with the alternatives, it's going to be a very weak choice.

    This is with the Feb. 19th changes and these results were consistent with observational data from the PTR.

    With my gearset, these were my calculations:

    Chi Wave: 11k HPS(e)
    Chi Burst: 18k HPE(e)
    Zen Sphere: 20k HPE(e)

    I would like to know if anyone else has done some work on these talents and whether they are reaching the same conclusion.
    From EJ monk forum. Surprising (at least to me) if this is confirmed.

  19. #319
    The Lightbringer Reglitch's Avatar
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    I have Chi Wave at 22k HPS.

    Chi Burst at 20.2 HPS over the 30 seconds it's on cooldown.

    Zen Sphere at 13k per instance, but you'll have roughly 1.5 zen spheres up at any given time with good usage which puts it roughly at Chi Burst.

    Keep in mind, Chi Wave uses 2 globals and Zen Sphere uses 3 in the space that Chi Burst takes one.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 07:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyjaljerk View Post
    From EJ monk forum. Surprising (at least to me) if this is confirmed.
    There has been very good discussion over there, especially regarding the effect of the WotM 2h passive on RPPM for both trinkets and enchants next patch.

  20. #320
    That all depends on the kind of damage the boss does

    Just tried on Lfr Garalon ( ok ok lfr but 440 ilvl ^^ ), and, with a raid totally dispatched, spread i can have more or less 8% of my total heal with ZS and Zs detonate.
    With a correctly stacked raid, and some good managment, i think ZS is the best talent to choose for constant raid damage, and could be up to 10 to 12% or our heal ( garalon, empress, tsulong night ...)

    As i see it :

    Constant raid damage + raid stacked = ZS (use it on cooldown on YOU ( because you're smart and know how to be placed when it detonates^^ ) and some cac or caster you know smart enought to be well stacked ^^ )

    Burst raid damage = chi burst

    raid very spread, or burst damages on only some people = chi wave ( use it on cooldown imo )

    Furthermore , i already said it, but we must make difference beetween MW with 2 T15 and MW without. That bonus is just totally stupid and the most OP bonus i've ever seen

    2 LFR garalon: - without bonus = RenM on cooldown = 32% of mly total hps
    - with bonus = RenM on cooldown = 45% of my total hps

    On most boss, the bonus will probably grant us up to 10kHPS

    Finally, as long as you avoid Surging or SCK, MW costs very very few mana ( in fact you only use mana for RenM et soothing ), so you totally can take Chi brew instead of ascension to have some on demand chi. With chi brew, the most problematic , imo, is NOT the 15% less mana, but the 5th chi you don't have, making pretty impossible to stack chi up to 5 ( and 5 chi + expel harm make good 3 burst UPLIFT ) .

    I'll try to MW with CJl instead of Soothing soon, because as i said, mana is more or less not a very big problem in MW, chi generation is.

    To the opposite, i can't imagine FW without ascension, mana is far too problematic.

    Now, T14 is behind us, and we probably should discuss about what playstyle ( MW vs FW ) and which tier 30 talent take for the T15 bosses

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