Service member's kills

[Hiricine]

Well on the ground tactics and role really determine your kills. As previously stated, a sniper basically is sent to take out a target or group of targets, and you can attribute his experience and skill to some degree to the amount of kills they get. You wouldn't credit an infantryman firing mortars or someone operating a battleship cannon or howitzer for kills, even if he fired a cannon that blew up a building and killed 5000 enemy soldiers. Most ground troops aren't sent in to take out specific targets, the vast majority march to occupy an area, or guard an area, or "sweep" an area for enemies.

On the same token, in air combat, the tactics can vary but traditionally are very specific to shooting down enemy fighters. The kill count is more attributed to what you're being sent to do and how you're doing it rather than anything else.

[Deleted]

It beats the F-22 in maneuverability, but that doesn't score it many points in a fight. We had some war games awhile back where F-22s were being pitted against Eurofighters in mock fights. The Eurofighter won almost every time, and was touted as the superior air fighter.

So what information did they leave out?

All of the F-22s were running without their full counter-measure packages. Originally, the Eurofighters couldn't even get missile-lock on the F-22. It was deemed unfair for them to be fighting something that was literally invisible to them, so the F-22 pilots had their stealth capabilities handicapped. They basically had a giant bulls-eye painted on them, and then the Eurofighters went "Aha! We can hit you now! Clearly ours is the superior fighter (if we can just convince our enemies to turn off their countermeasures...)"

What also was left out of the media report: The fights were all done within visual range. Even with the gimped stealth capabilities, the F-22 is capable of not only detecting the Typhoon before the Typhoon detects it, but it can get weapons lock on the Typhoon before, again, the Typhoon even knows the F-22 is coming.

Don't be so sure about that F-22 being so hard to detect.


An Active Electronically Scanned Array radar first flew in a Typhoon on 8 May 2007.[63] On 22 June 2011, it was announced that the partner nations had agreed to fund development of the next generation of "E-Scan" Captor-E radar, with entry into service planned for 2015.[64] The British are pursuing an independent Technology Demonstrator Programme called Bright Adder, which will give the Typhoon an Electronic Attack mode among other things.[65] Bright Adder is based on Qinetiq's ARTS radar demonstrator for the Tornado GR4 and could evolve into an alternative to the main E-Scan project should E-Scan falter.[65] In the meantime, a succession of radar software upgrades have enhanced the air-to-air capability of the Captor-M radar.[62] These upgrades have included the R2P programme (initially UK only, and known as T2P when 'ported' to the Tranche 2 aircraft)[66] which is being followed by R2Q/T2Q. R2P was applied to eight German Typhoons deployed on Red Flag Alaska in 2012.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

If the F-22 was so great, they would have not cancelled production of them. It is a great fighter, but very over hyped.

[Kalyyn]

If the F-22 was so great, they would have not cancelled production of them. It is a great fighter, but very over hyped.

I feel like the cancellation had less to do with it's performance, and more to do with a. bureaucratic fighting over the project and b. the staggering price tag on each plane.

But perfection doesn't come cheap.

As for the radar thing, that's going to give us some work to do. I figure we'll find a way to counter it eventually, although we probably won't put too much effort in to it (we're probably not going to war with Britain or France any time soon). But if the Chinese or Russians ever get their hands on the tech, that'll be a different story.

[Deleted]

I feel like the cancellation had less to do with it's performance, and more to do with a. bureaucratic fighting over the project and b. the staggering price tag on each plane.

But perfection doesn't come cheap.

As for the radar thing, that's going to give us some work to do. I figure we'll find a way to counter it eventually, although we probably won't put too much effort in to it (we're probably not going to war with Britain or France any time soon). But if the Chinese or Russians ever get their hands on the tech, that'll be a different story.

It is great that you are so protective of your military, but remember that having the biggest budget does not mean best technology. France still has the best drones, Britain still has the best tank armour and longest ever recorded tank on tank kill, and A swedish Submarine got right into the middle of a US carrier group and sunk the carrier during wargames.

The F-35 was the US's way of getting all of these countries to combine their technology and make something better than any could do individually, unfortunately it was a typical SNAFU which is what usually happens when you get geniuses together in one room each with different ideas.

[smelltheglove]

and A swedish Submarine got right into the middle of a US carrier group and sunk the carrier during wargames.

that's kind of disingenuous rich. i know you served on subs and know the difference between deisel/electric and nuclear, with regards to primary purpose and capabilities.

[Elegiac]

It beats the F-22 in maneuverability, but that doesn't score it many points in a fight. We had some war games awhile back where F-22s were being pitted against Eurofighters in mock fights. The Eurofighter won almost every time, and was touted as the superior air fighter.

So what information did they leave out?

All of the F-22s were running without their full counter-measure packages. Originally, the Eurofighters couldn't even get missile-lock on the F-22. It was deemed unfair for them to be fighting something that was literally invisible to them, so the F-22 pilots had their stealth capabilities handicapped. They basically had a giant bulls-eye painted on them, and then the Eurofighters went "Aha! We can hit you now! Clearly ours is the superior fighter (if we can just convince our enemies to turn off their countermeasures...)"

What also was left out of the media report: The fights were all done within visual range. Even with the gimped stealth capabilities, the F-22 is capable of not only detecting the Typhoon before the Typhoon detects it, but it can get weapons lock on the Typhoon before, again, the Typhoon even knows the F-22 is coming.

Stealth aside, the Typhoon is mechanically a lot more agile than the F-22. Not to mention cheaper, making it quite a good aircraft for the price; the one problem with the Typhoon is that having production centers in four different countries has lead to part shortages.

[Deleted]

that's kind of disingenuous rich. i know you served on subs and know the difference between deisel/electric and nuclear, with regards to primary purpose and capabilities.

They still did it though, quite an impressive achievement.

[Lockon Stratos]

http://www.aviatia.net/versus/eurofighter-vs-f-22/

Eurofighter Typhoon is cheaper airplane.
Eurofighter Typhoon is more economical airplane.
Eurofighter Typhoon is faster airplane.
Eurofighter Typhoon is better armed airplane.
Eurofighter Typhoon is better in BVR rating.
F-22 Raptor is better dogfighter.
Eurofighter Typhoon is smaller airplane than F-22 Raptor.

Having said that, if I had to choose a plane for my air force, it would be the Sukhoi PAK FA.
http://www.aviatia.net/versus/eurofighter-vs-pak-fa/

In straight up dogfight with only cannons, you can see the Eurofighter has a 59% chance of winning vs the F22's 41%.
The PAK FA has 54% chance of winning vs the Eurofighter...The Typhoon is a nice little plane. Any airforce armed with those is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

[Jackmoves]

One advantage European fighters got is the meteor missile, the USAF f22 and f35 can't be outfited with it... yet at least... not sure if they plan to make them able to carry it either. And it's easily the most modern and capable air-to-air missile on the market(or soon to be ;P).

Meteor is an active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) being developed by MBDA. Meteor will offer a multi-shot capability against long range manoeuvring targets in a heavy electronic countermeasures (ECM) environment.

It is intended to equip the Eurofighter Typhoons of the United Kingdom Royal Air Force (RAF), Germany's Luftwaffe, Spain's Ejército del Aire and Italy's Aeronautica Militare Italiana, British and Italian F-35s, French Dassault Rafale, and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen of Sweden's Flygvapnet.

It is scheduled to enter service for the first time with the RAF in 2015 and with the Swedish Air Force as early as 2013, making the SwAF the first operator of the missile. According to MBDA, Meteor has three to six times the kinematic performance of current air-air missiles of its type. The key to Meteor's performance is a throttleable ducted rocket (ramjet) manufactured by Bayern-Chemie of Germany

Description
Seeker

Terminal guidance is provided by an active radar seeker which is a joint development (June 2003) between MBDA's Seeker Division and Thales Airborne Systems and builds on their co-operation on the 4A (Active Anti-Air Seeker) family of seekers that equip the MICA and ASTER missiles. Thales produces four sub-assemblies representing approximately 35% of the seeker.

Forebody

Immediately aft of the seeker, the missile forebody which is designed and manufactured by Indra Sistemas, contains the inertial measurement system (IMS), provided by Litef, a German subsidiary of Northrop Grumman. The active radar proximity fuse subsystem (PFS) is provided by Saab Bofors Dynamics (SBD). The PFS detects the target and calculates the optimum time to initiate the warhead in order to achieve the maximum lethal effect. The PFS has four antennae, arranged symmetrically around the forebody. The Impact Sensor is fitted inside the PFS. Behind the PFS is a section containing thermal batteries, provided by ASB, the AC Power Supply Unit, and the Power and Signal Distribution Unit.

Warhead

The blast-fragmentation warhead is produced by TDW of Germany. The warhead is a structural component of the missile. A Telemetry and Break-Up System (TBUS) replaces the warhead on trials missiles.

Propulsion

The propulsion sub-system (PSS) is a Throttleable Ducted Rocket (TDR) with an integrated nozzleless booster, designed and manufactured by Bayern-Chemie. TDR propulsion provides a long range, a high average speed, a wide operational envelope from sea level to high altitude, a flexible mission envelope via active thrust control, relatively simple design, and logistics similar to those of conventional solid rocket motors.

The PSS consists of four main components: a ramcombustor with integrated nozzleless booster; the air intakes; the interstage; and the sustain gas generator. The PSS forms a structural component of the missile, the gas generator and ramcombustor having steel cases. The propulsion control unit electronics are mounted in the port intake fairing, ahead of the fin actuation subsystem.

The solid propellant nozzleless booster is integrated within the ramcombustor and accelerates the missile to a velocity where the TDR can take over. The reduced smoke propellant complies with STANAG 6016.

The air intakes and the port covers which seal the intake diffusors from the ramcombustor remain closed during the boost phase. The intakes are manufactured from titanium. The interstage is mounted between the GG and the ramcombustor and contains the Motor Safety Ignition Unit (MSIU), the booster igniter, and the gas generator control valve. The gas generator is ignited by the hot gases from the booster combustion which flow through the open control valve. The gas generator contains an oxygen deficient composite solid propellant which produces a hot, fuel-rich gas which auto-ignites in the air which has been decelerated and compressed by the intakes. The high energy boron-loaded propellant provides a roughly threefold increase in specific impulse compared to conventional solid rocket motors.

Thrust is controlled by a valve which varies the throat area of the gas generator nozzle. Reducing the throat area increases the pressure in the gas generator which increases the propellant burn rate, increasing the fuel mass flow into the ramcombustor. The mass flow can be varied continuously over a ratio greater than 10:1.

The Meteor PSS will be able to cope with high incidence and limited sideslip angles during manoeuvres but not negative incidences or large amounts of sideslip.

Control

The missile trajectory is controlled aerodynamically using four rear-mounted fins. Meteor's control principles are intended to allow high turn rates while maintaining intake and propulsion performance.

The fin actuation subsystem (FAS) was originally designed and manufactured by the Claverham Group (formerly Fairey Hydraulics Limited) a Somerset, UK, based division of the U.S. company Hamilton Sundstrand. Currently the design has been taken onboard by the MBDA UK, at Stevenage. The FAS is mounted at the rear of the intake fairings. The design of the FAS is complicated by the linkages required between the actuators, which are located in the intake fairings, and the body-mounted fins.

Datalink

Meteor will be 'network-enabled'. A datalink will allow the launch aircraft to provide mid-course target updates or retargeting if required, including data from offboard third-parties.

The datalink electronics are mounted in the starboard intake fairing, ahead of the FAS. The antenna is mounted in the rear of the fairing.

On 19 November 1996 Bayern-Chemie completed the latest in a series of tests designed to assess the attenuation of signals by the boron rich exhaust plume of the TDR, a concern highlighted by opponents of this form of ramjet propulsion. Tests were conducted with signals transmitted through the plume at various angles. The initial results suggested that the attenuation was much less than expected.

Eurofighter and Gripen

With Eurofighter and Gripen, it is a two-way datalink, which will be able to transmit missile information such as functional and kinematic status, information on multiple targets, and notification of target acquisition by the seeker.

Rafale

It is different with Rafale, which is fitted with a one-way link originally designed for use with its MICA missiles.

Mid-course guidance is provided by the fighter until the active seeker acquires the target, the missile then becoming autonomous.
Alternatively, the Meteor can be fired without using mid-course update, allowing the Rafale to immediately turn away to deny the enemy aircraft any firing possibility. Like with a "Fire and forget" AASM or MICA or Exocet missile.