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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    well played
    Well you did basically play the 'lol i have a life loser' card. It was kind of amusing.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  2. #102
    Pit Lord IRunSoFarAway's Avatar
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    I like it, I wish it gave some haste though even if the target doesn't die when used below 35%.
    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    No I don't raid because LFR let's me see content. So why would I waste time gemming, researching priorities, etc. I'd rather spend that time doing important things in life.
    Glad to see people are still aware they are the cancer of this game.

  4. #104
    PvE wise, I don't understand why anyone would want to complain about having the strongest Execute ability in the game.

  5. #105
    While I agree there isn't much reason to complain, it certainly isn't the strongest in the game.

    Execute and Drain Soul likely have that spot.

  6. #106
    I'd like a hunter-esque execute Personally. Free cost and does a good amount of damage.

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  7. #107
    We've been over this. There are no Free executes. A cooldown is a cost. Free would be no CD, No Resource consumption. Not one or the other.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    We've been over this. There are no Free executes. A cooldown is a cost. Free would be no CD, No Resource consumption. Not one or the other.
    Free means no cost, is a CD "cost" ? No.
    Hunter don't have to spend their main ressource (focus), so it's free.
    Soul Reaper is clunky, feels like "hey we wanted to add something for your class, but we didn't really knew how to do it, so here is it anyway"
    Especially as 2h frost its pretty weird, as DW its quite nice, even if the 5s "dot" annoys the shit out of me. Useful as Unholy.
    Hope they'll change sth as 2h Frost regarding SR, because it doesn't fit in the priority/output-mechanics, you'll always end up with another hole, maybe time to play with BT again.
    Would prefer, without a second thought, Warrior/Hunter/Paladin/Shadow execute-mechanics. SR isn't just thought until the end, kinda.
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  9. #109
    No, it's not free. I literally am quoting the design philosophy behind Kill Shot, there's a reason it has a default 10-second CD, that's it's cost. You miss with it and you waste it's CD, which is it's resource.

    That's why Execute has no CD, but a high rage cost. You can use it as much as you want, but if you miss you waste the rage. That's it's cost.

    Soul Reaper Has a Rune Cost and a CD, mostly to prevent people from gaming Death Runes and making it's cost pointless. If they removed the rune cost, they'd have to increase the CD or use a 10/6 second refresh CD similar to Kill Shot, which would be an overall nerf, since that's a GCD used that generates no resources.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    No, it's not free. I literally am quoting the design philosophy behind Kill Shot, there's a reason it has a default 10-second CD, that's it's cost. You miss with it and you waste it's CD, which is it's resource.

    That's why Execute has no CD, but a high rage cost. You can use it as much as you want, but if you miss you waste the rage. That's it's cost.

    Soul Reaper Has a Rune Cost and a CD, mostly to prevent people from gaming Death Runes and making it's cost pointless. If they removed the rune cost, they'd have to increase the CD or use a 10/6 second refresh CD similar to Kill Shot, which would be an overall nerf, since that's a GCD used that generates no resources.
    Would be happier if it would be usable like Kill Shot is, even if it would end in an overall nerf, because the mechanic would atleast be more fluid and less clunky. If I'd take a look at my alts (and I have a lot of them) and decide, I'd say we are the one who needs quite an overhaul for some mechanics which aren't just up2date anymore, SR just fits in the whole "not up2date" anymore kind of mechanic. Not that it's "too hard" (lol) to play, it just feels more weird and uncomfortable than it did in the past, a huge part of it is the Soul Reaper mechanic, which just fits in it.
    They could implement it in endless ways and chose the probably worst one just for the sake of giving us an execute (which wasn't needed in the first instance). Theres no big need to defend the mechanic, because it's not making the gameplay any harder, more difficult or anything like that (please, WA/PowA/TMW Trigger), the only feeling the mechanic gives me is to make the gameplay even more clunky.
    Last edited by Discodelya; 2013-02-18 at 02:51 AM.
    Vaenquasum 16:50:34
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboyslol View Post
    Because our execute is the only one that you can start before the execute phase, the only one that starts at such a high level of health (35%) and it generates a resource. As to your other things you want free I stated my responses above.
    If you take away the cost or make the cost be Runic Power instead of runes, it would no longer generate a resource.

    Moreover, if used above the execute phase (36%?) there is still the possibility it can fail if you have an Elegon style floor drop where you need to stop DPS and run out. No other execute carries that kind of risk of failure. Moreover, not only has the execute not done damage, but it has also eaten a precious resource that is critical to the rotation.

    Rage and Mana can be recovered easily, runes cannot. Aside from stacking haste and using ERW every 6 minutes, we have to time our abilities so that we aren't sitting there twiddling our thumbs. For other classes, they have control over regaining their resource, DKs do not.

    All in all, the way the ability works justifies the high health level. The cost, however is not justified.

  12. #112
    There's no real benefit to changing the mechanic though, because by and large the good players have already gotten used to it, and people who have any serious problems keeping SR uptime during execute phases aren't going to be tackling any content where it's needed - this thread is proof enough of that alone, as the majority of raiders in here are generally kind of 'Eh' about it.

    If you removed the rune cost, it'd be a Dead GCD, which is worse then using a rune, because the rune use still contributes to overall resource generation. No rune but a flat CD would just be a lost GCD worth a rune, rather then more RP towards a rune strike/frost strike/ death coil for more overall damage done and more resources regenerated. In fact because of that it'd end up being a net damage LOSS because you'd still be skipping GCDs to press SR rather then Obliterate, and not earning any resources to account for it.

    The only way to amend that damage loss would be to buff the damage of soul reaper, which would end up in them being forced to rebalance the damage of our pre-execute abilites - ask any fury warrior how being balanced around the last 20% (or 35% in our case) of a fight feels.

    As it is, it's a perfectly fine ability, and the only change I could see would be to make it Shadowfrost damage, so all three specs have a way of dynamically increases it'd damage.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    There's no real benefit to changing the mechanic though, because by and large the good players have already gotten used to it, and people who have any serious problems keeping SR uptime during execute phases aren't going to be tackling any content where it's needed - this thread is proof enough of that alone, as the majority of raiders in here are generally kind of 'Eh' about it.

    If you removed the rune cost, it'd be a Dead GCD, which is worse then using a rune, because the rune use still contributes to overall resource generation. No rune but a flat CD would just be a lost GCD worth a rune, rather then more RP towards a rune strike/frost strike/ death coil for more overall damage done and more resources regenerated. In fact because of that it'd end up being a net damage LOSS because you'd still be skipping GCDs to press SR rather then Obliterate, and not earning any resources to account for it.

    The only way to amend that damage loss would be to buff the damage of soul reaper, which would end up in them being forced to rebalance the damage of our pre-execute abilites - ask any fury warrior how being balanced around the last 20% (or 35% in our case) of a fight feels.

    As it is, it's a perfectly fine ability, and the only change I could see would be to make it Shadowfrost damage, so all three specs have a way of dynamically increases it'd damage.
    Yes, there is a real benefit to changing the mechanic. The 5 sec delay of the Shadow damage needs to be lowered to 3 seconds. That should be priority number one. There are way too many variables to track during PvP which can completely negate Soul Reaper. Five seconds is an ETERNITY in PvP.

    And, it would not be a net damage loss for DW or 2H Frost if Soul Reaper had it's rune cost removed. Although, it would be a net damage loss for Unholy IF you are Haste capped. With that being said, I'm not sure how I feel about the "cost" of Soul Reaper. I play DW, so it's not too bad as a Frost rune. But if I played 2H, then I'd probably be bitching much more about things.

  14. #114
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    I find it quite funny that all these pve heroes are tellign all us "bad" dks that soul reaper is great. What they fail to understand that as a 2H FDK, SR in pvp is nigh useless as it sits. Like a previous poster said, 5 seconds waiting for it to go off is an eternity in pvp, and there is so much that can happen inthat tiem to negate its damage - heals, target dies, gets dispelled, you die, etc. It is the only execute-type ability that really screws with the p[riority system, and that has a delay. Its liek blizzard thought they needed to throw something at dks, btu put absolutely no thought into it. I have tried messign around with it in pvp, but the rune cost vs the reward makes this spell not worth it. I would much ratehr sit ont he runes and get a guaranteed huge OB than wait the 5 seconds for SR to detonate. And to those people sayign I[m just not timing it right, you're wrong. Made it all the way to 2400 this season without using SR, and never had a problem. I'll admit, this debate has me thinking about it, btu tthe times I try to mess with it it just doesn't work. Waiting to stack NS and OB at sub 35% works better IMO.

  15. #115
    You're also talking about PVP.

    Hate to break to you, but PVP is never balanced in this game. PVE is, and by and large this board on this forum is devoted to PVE. Most responses you'll get here are going to be PVE-oriented. That's just how the pie slices, boys.

    Every class ever has about ten-bazillion threads on the official forums decrying how they need to be buffed and everyone else needs to be nerfed, and yet the PVP brackets march on despite the cries of how utterly broken and impossible it is for every class, spec and comp to succeed.

    When a PVE encounter comes up as impossible, it's easy to point out the problem and fix it. Not so simple when the complaint is potentially 'I HATE THIS BECAUSE SOMEONE OUTPLAYED ME.'
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    You're also talking about PVP.

    Hate to break to you, but PvP is never balanced in this game. PVE is, and by and large this board on this forum is devoted to PVE. Most responses you'll get here are going to be PVE-oriented. That's just how the pie slices, boys.
    It has nothing to do with the PVP balance of the over all game. It has everything to do with our new execute ability being worthless more times than not while in execute range. And that lack of worth is completely out of your hands in most situations. It has nothing to do with being "outplayed". It has everything to do with a shitty overly-delayed damage mechanic.

    As far as PVE goes, the ability could have no delayed damage effect and it would not really change things. You hit the button and the damage will eventually show up in your Recount. The only debate would then be how it "feels" to use the actual ability. 2H Frost has a valid complaint in this regard. And that applies to both PvE and PvP.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    If you removed the rune cost, it'd be a Dead GCD, which is worse then using a rune, because the rune use still contributes to overall resource generation. No rune but a flat CD would just be a lost GCD worth a rune, rather then more RP towards a rune strike/frost strike/ death coil for more overall damage done and more resources regenerated. In fact because of that it'd end up being a net damage LOSS because you'd still be skipping GCDs to press SR rather then Obliterate, and not earning any resources to account for it.
    You think the way SR is now cost-wise, it'd be higher in DPS than if the cost was removed or changed to RP?

    Start from zero with two death runes. Your view is that - Soul Reaper + Death and Decay + Frost Strike would be more dps than Soul Reaper + Obliterate + Frost Strike + (Maybe a Rime proc)?

    They take up the same amount of runes and the second one maybe has an extra GCD but you can't deny that the significant increase in efficiency is worth the extra GCD. There is no way that an ability that interrupts a rotation based on sets of two will out dps an ability that works without interruption. It doesn't make sense and it's seriously hamstringing to 2H Frost.

    During Execute phase I seriously consider switching the UH presence just so I can generate runes fast enough to keep swinging.
    Last edited by Totle; 2013-02-18 at 04:34 PM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    You're also talking about PVP.

    Hate to break to you, but PVP is never balanced in this game. PVE is, and by and large this board on this forum is devoted to PVE. Most responses you'll get here are going to be PVE-oriented. That's just how the pie slices, boys.

    Every class ever has about ten-bazillion threads on the official forums decrying how they need to be buffed and everyone else needs to be nerfed, and yet the PVP brackets march on despite the cries of how utterly broken and impossible it is for every class, spec and comp to succeed.

    When a PVE encounter comes up as impossible, it's easy to point out the problem and fix it. Not so simple when the complaint is potentially 'I HATE THIS BECAUSE SOMEONE OUTPLAYED ME.'
    You are totally missing the point. I'm not sure whether this is on purpose or if youre trying to troll, but your answer makes no sense. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with balance and everything to do with one spell in a class that people are discussing. If you have nothing relevant or thought-proviking to say, kindly don't waste our time with useless comments and posts.

  19. #119
    I play Unholy in PvP, and I absolutely love this ability. Killed so many mages and paladins before they managed to use Iceblock or bubble. They get to like 30% then Soul Reaper procs and they die so fast they have no time to Iceblock or bubble. Of course the good players will try to keep track of the Soul Reaper debuff. It also works like a charm against Second Wind and Dispersion (apply when Dispersed, and it will proc after Disperse is down). There are many situations where it doesn't proc because your target gets healed right before it would proc. But the potential of yielding a 100k+ crit in PvP makes it really strong.

  20. #120
    This thread has everything to do with balance. Soul Reaper is a DPS ability, ergo it's part of our balance for all three specs.

    Fury has a very powerful execute, and it resulted in them being balanced AROUND that execute, which ended up with them basically having terrible DPS during early MOP content until they addressed that by re-balancing the damage from execute to other abilities. That's a question of balance.

    The same can be said of soul reaper, it's unique in that it's an ability for a class who effectively has three resources; Runes, Runic Power, and GCDs to spend them in. It was the impetous behind changing DKs to a lower GCD during MOP in the first place, because frost and unholy both had more runes and RP then they could effectively spend locked into the standard GCD wait time.

    Soul Reaper can be exceedingly powerful when used right, it's not a no-brainer button-smash like Warrior Execute, which even my highly-skilled guild tank basically says is basically the idiot-proof smash button. It's not nearly consequence-free like the Hunter Execute. If they were to remove one or the other costs to it, they'd be forced to reduce the damage of the ability to compensate.

    In theory what would you do if you had a resource-free execute that consumed a GCD, but did 30% less damage then a scourge strike? Stop pressing it? Of course you would, it'd be pointless and a waste of a GCD you could be using on stronger abilites. Right now, Soul Reaper is more damage per-rune then any other ability we have, and it benefits people to work it in.

    Comparing it's use in PVE to it's use in PVP is a fool's comparison, because you can't. End of line. PVP and PVE are too different, and by your logic that PVP trumps PVE, every tank spec and class and ability to boot, are totally worthless.
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