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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Showing one orc that goes against the grain doesn't make him wrong. Orcs before the demons were just the same as humans before cities. Tribal clans that fought sometimes over boundaries and they traded openly with each other as well as Draeni before the demons tainted them.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Okay you are COMPLETELY Sticking words in my mouth.

    I'm getting tired of this.

    All I pointed out was that not all Mag'har are sweetness and light and that there is something VERY wrong with blizz's depiction of the Horde and what they've told us of their origins.

    NOWHERE did I say all orcs are always evil.
    My first line was in reference to your post. The rest was for Salandrin. Calm down.



  3. #23
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    This is actually why I don't want Thrall to come back, I want a non-human raised orc to take charge and prove they're not all doomed to eventually turn evil without humanities pacifying influence.
    You know you don't even try anymore. Thrall shows infact that orcs are not inherently evil, and using the whole 'he's a human in orc skin' crap is GETTING OLD. Varian was taught to fight by orc arena masters, does that make him an orc in human skin?
    Thrall is an orc, he's one who represents the kind of orcs we saw of old, not savage mindless brutes. He comes from two orcs, durotan and draka, who were aware and open minded orcs themselves and who finally stood against the developing evil Gul'dan represented.

    You have an extremely narrow point of view if you assume because Thrall doesn't show the kind of moronic behavior that idiot orcs show that he isn't an orc, you could say the same about any frostwolf orc and it would still be rubbish.

    Also, Saurfang? The orc who lead the fight against AQ and against the scourge, he was a blackrock orc who showed more honor then some humans are capable of understanding. Eitrigg too showed Tirion orcs are not just mindless savages.

    They are not inherently evil, they are just a race lead into false pretenses by a few rotten apples.

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panjier View Post
    Showing one orc that goes against the grain doesn't make him wrong. Orcs before the demons were just the same as humans before cities. Tribal clans that fought sometimes over boundaries and they traded openly with each other as well as Draeni before the demons tainted them.
    Okay see that's what we're -told- but it's not what we're shown at all.

    We have Mag'har guys like Greebo, Saurboz, Globtok, etc... hell, in -Nagrand- we have a bunch that still jump at the chance to fight the Draenei.

    We were TOLD the Mag'har and the orcs were 'good' before the demonblood but all we're ever shown are more and more monsters just as bad as they were during the second war and it pisses me off.
    Twas brillig

  5. #25
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Okay see that's what we're -told- but it's not what we're shown at all.

    We have Mag'har guys like Greebo, Saurboz, Globtok, etc... hell, in -Nagrand- we have a bunch that still jump at the chance to fight the Draenei.

    We were TOLD the Mag'har and the orcs were 'good' before the demonblood but all we're ever shown are more and more monsters just as bad as they were during the second war and it pisses me off.
    You don't have much of an open mind for someone expecting everyone to see it your way. And your wrong, since so many accounts blizzard has told us that the orcs before the legion were a shamanistic culture, not an evil race of degenerates as you keep trying to pin them as.
    The orcs before the legion had the same principles as the tauren, this is also why Thrall found a bond with the tauren, because Drek'thar told him the tauren are as the orcs once were themselves, those who respected nature and the world around them.

    What more does it take for you to see that is how the orcs were, you won't even listen and accuse people of putting words in your mouth.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know you don't even try anymore. Thrall shows infact that orcs are not inherently evil, and using the whole 'he's a human in orc skin' crap is GETTING OLD.

    Varian was taught to fight by orc arena masters, does that make him an orc in human skin?
    Thrall is an orc, he's one who represents the kind of orcs we saw of old, not savage mindless brutes. He comes from two orcs, durotan and draka, who were aware and open minded orcs themselves and who finally stood against the developing evil Gul'dan represented.

    You have an extremely narrow point of view if you assume because Thrall doesn't show the kind of moronic behavior that idiot orcs show that he isn't an orc, you could say the same about any frostwolf orc and it would still be rubbish.

    Also, Saurfang? The orc who lead the fight against AQ and against the scourge, he was a blackrock orc who showed more honor then some humans are capable of understanding. Eitrigg too showed Tirion orcs are not just mindless savages.

    They are not inherently evil, they are just a race lead into false pretenses by a few rotten apples.
    1. Calm down. It's my opinion. If you want to prove me wrong do it in debate.

    2. Okay but he never -knew- Durotan or Draka, he died before they got any chance to have any impact on him as person. He got mercy and kindness from Taretha and Sergeant taught him honor. He didn't get these qualities from any orcs, if anything, he was the source of them to most other orcs who were kidnapping kids and robbing farms up until he and Grom told them to cut it out, and Grom wasn't actively telling them not to until Thrall showed up anyway.

    3. I'm not saying he doesn't show it because he's an orc. I know that 'good' orcs like Gorgonna and Mahka and such exist, but -none- of them are ever in major positions of power to start out with, none of them get pointed to like Thrall and Blizz did to Garrosh as 'THIS is an orc!' Hell, even Drek had his character derailed in the AV battleground for however-many years till he got put back on track recently.

    4. Saurfang's depicted as the ideal yes but again, he's treated like an outlier, not the 'everyman' orc, his 'goodness' is depicted as being rooted not in the fact that he's an 'honorable orc' but because he feels bad about what he did in the First/Second War and to the Draenei. This -bothers- me.

    5. I'm not saying they're inherently evil, I'm saying that's what they get depicted as and that it's a view that needs to be broken with some changes to the way the story's told. I do wish people would actually read what I say :\

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 11:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You don't have much of an open mind for someone expecting everyone to see it your way. And your wrong, since so many accounts blizzard has told us that the orcs before the legion were a shamanistic culture, not an evil race of degenerates as you keep trying to pin them as.
    The orcs before the legion had the same principles as the tauren, this is also why Thrall found a bond with the tauren, because Drek'thar told him the tauren are as the orcs once were themselves, those who respected nature and the world around them.

    What more does it take for you to see that is how the orcs were, you won't even listen and accuse people of putting words in your mouth.
    1. You're not listening to what I'm saying, I know what we're told, I'm taking issue with the way the story is depicted. Yes we can be TOLD the orcs were good before demon corruption but then the Rise of the Horde book SHOWS most of the draenei murdern' took place before they even drank Mannoroths blood, we're TOLD the Mag'har are good and peaceful and uncorrupted but then Blizz fails to SHOW any difference between them and the green orcs besides skincolor and architecture. I'm saying Blizz needs to make what they TELL US and what they SHOW US match.

    2. Well it would be really nice to have people not be so hostile to me just because I dare to raise my opinion, that'd be great :\
    Twas brillig

  7. #27
    Orcs may not be inherently evil, but reading Rise of the Horde convinced me that they are extremely malleable and gullible.
    Exterminate these peaceful Draenei? Sure, whatever.
    Help control the population. Have your blood elf spayed or neutered.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrerBear View Post
    Orcs may not be inherently evil, but reading Rise of the Horde convinced me that they are extremely malleable and gullible.
    Exterminate these peaceful Draenei? Sure, whatever.
    This. That book infuriated me, I mean -yes- it's a different culture and they had no real experience with deceit prior to that but it was painful just how easy it was for Kiljaeden to get them to do it.

    I mean yes he's kil'jaeden THE DECEIVER he deceives it's what he does but I expected more... I don't know -questioning-.
    Twas brillig

  9. #29
    Orcs are not "naturally evil". They are as evil as humans can be, and that's it.

    The problem here is orcish culture. There's no such thing as a "peaceful warrior culture". Either you have a peaceful culture, or a warrior culture, and the orcs are the former. They value strength, so they need enemies to prove their strength. They believe the strong can take what they want. Their honor is one bound to battle and bloodshed: "Victory or Death". Serve the chieftain or you lose your honor. Hell, their leader is a "Warchief", impliying they are always at war with someone.

    When Thrall took power, he also preached that the orcs have been deceived, that the slaughter and genocide they did in the former wars was not their fought. He made a bunch of butchers and killers like Doomhammer, Kargath Bladefist and Grom Hellscream into worshiped heroes. And he sure made the orcs think they were purified, so they wouldn't be haunted by their past crimes. And while Thrall strived for peace and avoided needless conflict, he never made those directives into pillars of a new orcish culture; instead, he tried to return the orc's to their roots: of honored warriors.

    So, Thrall gets out of power and leaves a very confused Garrosh Hellscream in his place. What Garrosh sees is exactly what Thrall preached all that time: the orcs have been wronged, left without resources in a wasteland. All their crimes have been purged, the Alliance has nothing to blame them on, because they paid for their crimes already. The orcs are living on scraps and that's unthinkable for a proud warrior race that believes the strong have the right to take what it wants. And there are a lot of young orcs who grew up on internment camps and feel ashamed or angry, blaming the Alliance for all their hardships.

    So Garrosh does what he was made to believe is right. He does what his people expects from him. From the orcs' point of view, they must rise and take what they need to survive. They deserve better land, they deserve abundant food and water, and they deserve to right the wrongs those humans did to them by keeping them imprisoned for crimes that were not their fault. They rise, as they must do because they are warriors. Because they won't take shit from anybody. Because they are proud and strong and must honor the heroes of the past. Heroes like Grom, Kargath and Orgrim.

    This is a necessary part in the orcs' development into a better society. They must be defeated and realise that they didn't purge the sins of the past, that they need diplomacy and allies as much as they need to be warriors, and that those heroes of the past were just glorified murderers that sold their society to demons. They must feel ashamed, or else they won't evolve into something better.

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