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  1. #1

    Tonight's PTR buid (2/13) and SoJ

    The new SoJ is now working "properly" on the PTR, and as many of us suspected it's pretty problematic. Most of the criticisms I made in my post in a previous thread are as relevant as I thought they would be.

    The proc does about half as much damage as a TV, which just isn't that much; Seal of Truth can do about that much burst in only a slightly larger window. On the pre-made I used on the PTR, SoT ticks for 7k, SoJ hits for around 30k non crit. When you add in the weapon damage strikes from SoT, the fact that the weapon damage procs on Judgement, and the fact that Censure is constantly doing damage, this new seal is completely gimp... not to mention it does drastically more damage on targets that are standing still than moving ones, so there is no way to balance it for PvE, unless they accept that it will just do more damage that SoT, which they probably won't.

    Also, the seal significantly changes your rotation, and is a nightmare to manage. Keeping yourself from wasting stacks is a full-time job... which would be fine if it were a well-paying job, which it's not.

    Here is my list of issues from a previous thread, pretty much all of them apply to the version currently live on the PTR:


    List of serious flaws with the new Seal of Justice:

    Let's start with the common ones that other people thought of, and I will list the ones I have not seen mentioned elsewhere at the end:

    1) Seal of Truth does much more damage while being kited due to Censure (this alone raises serious concerns about whether this seal can even be balanced for PvP and PvE).

    2) Seal of Justice not only stacks very slowly from range, but also cannot be UNLEASHED from range, so if you are at 5 stacks and cannot reach your target, your next Judgement will waste a stack and only refresh SoJ.

    3) If you are CCed for 20 seconds or line of sighted, the stack falls off and all damage is completely lost, Censure on the other hand at least did damage before it expired.

    EDIT (2/14): I forgot to mention that SoJ is also horrible while disarmed: Censure would keep on ticking while disarmed, while SoJ becomes very difficult to stack, and cannot be unleashed... with the coming Ring of Peace, this is another absolute nightmare.

    From this point on things start getting really bad:

    4) SoJ clashes with our rotation, Ret Paladins do not use TV when ever they can, if we are not holy power capped we use HP generators like CS to maximize dps, and use TV at 5 HP, or when nothing else is available. So, with SoJ we have to use TV at 5 stacks of SoJ or waste stacks, or stick to the max dps rotation and waste stacks but not waste holy power. This adds another major dps hit to SoJ.

    5) Refreshing Inquisition will now be a huge dps loss, why? Because if we use 3 HP for Inquisition, we cannot dump our SoJ stacks, thus several SoJ application will be wasted until we have enough HP to use TV. Even if you use Inquisition at 5 HP, you will still probably waste stacks before you can TV.

    6) Word of Glory becomes a much bigger dps loss for the same reasons as Inquisition, however the problem here is even worse since you can somewhat plan when Inquisition will be refresh (but honestly not really in the chaos of PvP), when it comes to WoG, you have to heal when people need it, you can't sit around and manage SoJ stacks and Holy Power while you or your partners are dying. So, if you heal with WoG while SoJ is at 5 stacks, you will then potentially have to hit 3 HP generators before being able to TV, this can lead to numerous stacks of SoJ to be completely wasted.

    7) Due to the problems listed above, this seal is practically unusable unless you take Divine Purpose (and even then you will need lots of luck), and we are supposed to have choices. 5.2 already takes talent choices away from Ret as it is. The huge Flash of Light buff makes Selfless healer blow everything else in that tier away. The Hand of Sacrifice buff makes Clemency even more mandatory. The loss of the SoJ snare makes Burden of Guilt our only snare option other than Light's Hammer. Holy Prism will still beat Light's Hammer almost always. And, Long Arm of the Law is pretty much dominant even today, and will remain that way. In other words, if you use this seal you basically have no real talent options at all.

    EDIT: 8) SoJ could waste stacks at pretty much any time when we spend a global on a utility spell and so delay HP generation and thus TVs (and so our auto-attacks will stack SoJ faster than we can consume it).

    Some solutions:

    1) This seal has to stack to more than 5 to work (but still only 5 stacks usable at a time), otherwise the amount of wasted SoJ applications will be absurd, and the seal will do a tiny fraction of Seal of Truth damage. Stacking to 10 might work.

    2) Another option is to add a non-damage buff to the seal, such as something along the lines of Necrotic strike, this will make up for the unavoidably massive difference in damage between the two seals.

    3) The new SoJ attack could perhaps be triggered by Judgement so that being kited doesn't lead to both slow stacking and wasted stacks. The attack should only be triggered at 5 stacks in this case, since Judgement is used fairly often, and is our main gap closer.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-14 at 05:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Nice , the new soj for pvp is complete bullshit

    Your post is uncalled for and unneeded. Lets keep this thread void of posts like this. -Krekko
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-02-14 at 04:38 AM.

  3. #3
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Not everyday you start out threads with a warning.

    The other thread was closed for a reason. Do NOT armory bash, do NOT rating bash, do not "Do you even [insert activity here] bro" mentality your way through this. Do not post like the above user.

    Keep your posting on-topic, useful respectful and productive. Use constructive criticism void of any attacks or jabs at other players, please. Feel free to bring the good over from the old thread, leave the bad.

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    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-02-14 at 04:56 AM.
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  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    He's right though. As many of us already deduced, it's abysmally bad. The damage is actually LOWER than I had estimated by a good margin and if it truly cannot crit then I don't know what to say.

    I am wondering what's taking them so long to get it working 100% though... It appears the skeleton is in, but it's plagued by all sorts of issues that really should not exist (other Paladins eating your debuffs, remnants of the snare + issues with "freedom" effects removing stacks). I mean, Ghostcrawler is insistent on his twitter at least that they are getting "tons of positive" feedback on this new Justice, but how are we meant to give meaningful feedback on something that hasn't worked properly at all yet?

    It looks bleak to say the least. They *really* need to think of something else, and fast.

    Edit: This is what I'm referring to regarding it not working 100% yet.

    -It is affected by Inquisition.
    -Lasts for 20 seconds.
    -Right now, a fully stacked Justice with Inquisition deals about 1.5 times more damage than a Crusader Strike (roughly 26k vs 39k)
    -Build up time is the same as Seal of Truth (semi-good, semi-bad, especially if you're holding onto Justice stacks till 5. It's common to have situations where you're capped for Holy Power but still building Justice debuffs, especially in hectic BG situations and target switches).
    -Justice is not critting, like at all.
    -It still snares (I'm assuming a bug, since Judgment is now proccing it. Shame, because it's helping a lot to keep on targets atm).
    -Things that remove movement impairing effects remove the Justice stacks (a huge loss, a Paladin who uses Hand of Freedom on someone effectively makes them immune to Justice).
    -Seal of Justice debuff is apparently shared between Paladins - another Paladin can cast Templar's Verdict and end up consuming your own stacks, rather than both having their own unique Justice debuff.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-02-14 at 05:04 AM.

  5. #5
    The only way I could see balancing it and making it the pvp seal of choice without buffing its damage, is that it needs pvp utility as well. Period.

  6. #6
    I don't know where you're getting the no crits thing, it crits just fine for me.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandrel View Post
    I don't know where you're getting the no crits thing, it crits just fine for me.
    I'm not sure to be honest. I think I saw 1 crit in about 40 hits. Its crit % is certainly bugged... there is no way so many people are reporting a bugged crit rate without there actually being something wrong. Either way, this Seal doesn't even have the slightest hope of working until you can stack to more than 5; otherwise the massive amount of wasted procs in PvP will make the damage completely impossible to balance for PvE. But that's just a start, this Seal will not see any use in PvP until it gets a serious secondary PvP debuff like Reith and others mentioned.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-14 at 06:08 AM.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    So there's 1 post so far claiming it can crit and did 97k with wings + a trinket on a dummy... Again much lower than I had anticipated honestly

    Also the one "it aint so bad" post is by a level 1. Forgive me if I take it with a handful of salt; I can't take someone seriously when they're making a conscious effort to conceal their character in that way.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    I'm not sure to be honest. I think I saw 1 crit in about 40 hits. Its crit % is certainly bugged... there is no way so many people are reporting a bugged crit rate without there actually being something wrong. Either way, this Seal doesn't even have the slightest hope of working until you can stack to more than 5; otherwise the massive amount of wasted procs in PvP will make the damage completely impossible to balance for PvE. But that's just a start, this Seal will not see any use in PvP until it gets a serious secondary PvP debuff like Reith and others mentioned.
    On the test dummies at least, it seems to crit just fine. It does seem to have a lower crit chance in pvp for some reason but it does crit there every once in awhile. Overall pretty meh though.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Andron's Avatar
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    Incoming "In an effort to make Justice better in comparison to Truth, we'll nerf Censure damage by 50%"? *cough*

    Anyway: I'm a bit worried that it's indeed so underwhelming right now. Even more since GC somewhat said "that's final, take it or leave it" in his first post about the new seal. Here's to hoping that they're not done with it yet and still accept and take into account the feedback, just keep it coming.
    No PTR for me, so I just have to rely on what you others give, but I'll gladly Twitter and stuff, whatever helps.

  11. #11
    I agree. After testing it on the Ptr I can say that the new Seal of Justice is not nearly as good as it seems on paper. It stacks too slowly, it doesn't do enough damage, and its extremely clunky. (not to mention that its still bugged and gets removed like a snare)

    The Stacks either need to not be consumed with Tv (this would make it a lot less clunky and improve its damage) or stack to 5 and only consume 3. Another option would be to add some kind of useful Pvp utility to it.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans icausewipes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andron View Post
    Incoming "In an effort to make Justice better in comparison to Truth, we'll nerf Censure damage by 50%"? *cough*
    I hope this does not happen.
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  13. #13
    I can confirm Justice crits, had a few 90k+ crits. It's very unimpressive and clunky though. Justice takes too long to stack and if you're not unloading TVs waiting for 5 stacks, then it's really hard to get enough pressure to even setup a kill once it does hit 5 stacks. As others mentioned too, it doesn't hit that hard, most of the time only adding 35-40k damage. Basically, as is no serious rets are going to take it, the pressure lost w/o censure is too great and the opportunity cost of waiting for 5 stacks of Justice is incredibly high for the "reward."

  14. #14
    did they increased the duration of SoJ to 20 sec ? if someone can confirm
    and as i remember GC didnt want us to Switch between seals , so i think they will add a Cd between Seals , i hope this wont happen but i wont push my hopes up

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Another option would be to add some kind of useful Pvp utility to it.
    This is the best option, and could actually help us get into competitive pvp...which at some point I thought was the whole purpose for changing SoJ...or did they just want to acknowledge that they are bad and do absolutely nothing about it?

    I doubt many people will use the new seal, but unfortunately it was made pretty clear that it "was this or nothing" so...as usual wait till next patch/expansion :S

  16. #16
    The damage it puts out is really not worth it. I'm getting around 30k hits,non crits at most.

  17. #17
    Hopefully GC's offer (threat?) of "take it or we're just gonna put back in SoJ 1.0" still stands.

    At least we had a choice there with FoJ/SoJ or BoG/SoT. And SoJ 1.0's passive damage is apparently about equal to the new version's "burst" once you factor in reliability and overall usability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #18
    Yeah they better drop the idea. Sounds terribwe

  19. #19
    we need to confirm the Dmg of Soj some say 80k some say 150-200k dmg !!!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    we need to confirm the Dmg of Soj some say 80k some say 150-200k dmg !!!
    Who says either of those numbers? Most values are in the 25-35k range. The 77k I saw was under the context of wings and on-use trinket. All of this was on dummies (i.e. no resil); actual PVP numbers are more in the area of 17-30k.

    At the cost of censure, the punishment of using anything that is NOT TV (ergo, wasting stacks of Justice), and still lacking a snare, the new SOJ is utter garbage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

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