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  1. #1

    Another 2hd vs dw Frost~

    Ok, my questioon....

    Is it the fight mechanic? is DW really that much better? Am I getting bad RNG Procs?!?!

    Ignoring the rest of my gear and focusing on weapons alone:

    LFR 1hd MSV + LFR 1hd HOF = normal Ambershaper 149k
    Normal 2hd ToES /w Gem + Prismatic = 98k

    wtf went wrong?

    I usually dps as dw frost but since I got my axe finally I thought I might as well reforge/gem and use 2hd since the badassary level just went through the roof,
    to my surprise my dps plumeted enormously!?

    Im thinking I had really bad RNG That time cause the difference is huge!!

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Your first mistake was using LFR as a serious basis for anything.
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  3. #3
    Blademaster Mindyourbaal's Avatar
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    Lfr is the quality of the weapons. He clearly says the dps is from normal Ambershaper.
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  4. #4
    With all the netspeak and misspelling, he didn't say anything clearly...

    But the obvious answer is he's worse at Spec B then Spec A.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  5. #5
    A combination of probably bad RNG on the 2h attempt and good RNG on the DW attempt, combined with the horrible itemization of the Sha 2hander for Frost, as well as DW roflcleaving any adds that are nearby. Throw in 2h Frost being one of the most Weapon DPS dependent specs in the game, and that's your result.

    Edit: If you kept your DW stat reforges, that could also be your problem. 2h has no use for Mastery, while DW wants All The Mastery.
    Last edited by Omertocracy; 2013-02-13 at 10:43 PM.
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  6. #6
    The only bad thing about The Sha axe is no haste, our two preferred Tertiary stats are on it, and Reforging exists for a reason. It's hardly horrible, the weapon damage alone makes it's case pretty solidly.

    'Horrible' Itemization would be if it were A Crit/Intellect mace from TBC. Otherwise it's just lacking haste.
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  7. #7
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashcroft View Post
    Ok, my questioon....

    Is it the fight mechanic? is DW really that much better? Am I getting bad RNG Procs?!?!

    Ignoring the rest of my gear and focusing on weapons alone:

    LFR 1hd MSV + LFR 1hd HOF = normal Ambershaper 149k
    Normal 2hd ToES /w Gem + Prismatic = 98k

    wtf went wrong?

    I usually dps as dw frost but since I got my axe finally I thought I might as well reforge/gem and use 2hd since the badassary level just went through the roof,
    to my surprise my dps plumeted enormously!?

    Im thinking I had really bad RNG That time cause the difference is huge!!

    Thoughts?
    1.) Cleave - the passive cleave/aoe from DW will just smash that fight - doesn't matter if you're using LFR weapons, you have howling blast hitting everything in the vicinity. The boss, the little amber globule adds, the people who've been mutated AND the construct.
    2.) RNG - If you get turned into a construct then your DPS skyrockets.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  8. #8
    Alright, pretty much what I figured. Cleave is just too imba atm. If it mattered, my ilvl is 495 so not shabby.
    Most likely going back to my DW spec.

    @ Murdos ~ There was really only 2 spelling mistakes if you ignore the "net speak" as you phrase it, nonetheless I am on the net?! XD
    + There isn't a huge learning curb between the two specs, at least for me. (between DW and 2hd)

    Thanks~

  9. #9
    You're on the internet, the onus is on you to communicate well. It's learning 'Curve' by the way.

    Also it always boggles me how people will pick a fight with a lot of pointless trash AOE and proclaim DW better at ALL THE THINGS.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    You're on the internet, the onus is on you to communicate well. It's learning 'Curve' by the way.

    Also it always boggles me how people will pick a fight with a lot of pointless trash AOE and proclaim DW better at ALL THE THINGS.
    While you're on him, there should be a comma after also in your second line, and a comma before by the way.

    OT: DW is supposed to pull ahead on any fight that your Howling Blast can hit more than one target.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    OT: DW is supposed to pull ahead on any fight that your Howling Blast can hit more than one target.
    But only slightly...
    Amber Shaper is just a really bad Benchmark since:
    Turning into an abomination is a huge dps gain.
    Number of stacks on the bosses makes a huge difference.
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  12. #12
    Yeah, I guess I was attempting to give a simple answer to a complicated situation. /shrug

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Yeah, I guess I was attempting to give a simple answer to a complicated situation. /shrug
    one that doesn't explain a 50k dps difference :O
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    Dk: Telare
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  14. #14
    The placement of commas isn't quite in the same league as using words incorrectly. :P

    The long and short of it is that Amber-Shaper is a terrible fight to measure DPS of any kind on, period. It's one giant RNG clusterfuck.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  15. #15
    I know, just giving you a hard time ;P


    My dps on wind-lord was 80k higher than Sha....halp?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    OT: DW is supposed to pull ahead on any fight that your Howling Blast can hit more than one target.
    Just out of curiosity, I want to know why this is. Both DW and 2H use Rime procs as part of their "rotation". The main difference between them is the use of Oblit and FS during Killing Machine.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Jarg's Avatar
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    DW uses "all" D/F runes on HB, while 2hander use every rune on OB.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    My dps on wind-lord was 80k higher than Sha....halp?
    Your dps on a boss with an extended aoe situation and a damage buff was higher than your dps on a boss with neither.

    This should not require explanation and has nothing to do with your spec.

    As for the actual difference between the specs, they do pretty much the same damage on patchwerk with dual wield pulling ahead on almost everything else. Of course patchwerk is not a boss in t14 and the situations where 2h frost would be better are largely not present in the current raid tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by omnibishop View Post
    Just out of curiosity, I want to know why this is. Both DW and 2H use Rime procs as part of their "rotation". The main difference between them is the use of Oblit and FS during Killing Machine.
    Many reasons. For a start, the main difference between the specs is that dual wield focuses on increasing frost damage with mastery, and 2h focuses on increasing physical damage with haste. Needless to say none of our aoe is physical and a lot of it is frost.

    For both single target priorities dw does almost 20% of its total damage with howling blast, and for 2h it's less than 10%. So whenever you're focusing on a single target and getting free splash damage from howling blast duel wield will benefit more.

    Reforging into mastery is optimal on single targets and for aoe as duel wield, as 2h it's sub optimal on single targets but can be optimal in aoe situations. So for dual wield howling blast and frost fever do more damage, and if you reforge mastery as 2h for aoe you're losing single target damage. Also, dual wield uses razorice, so that's another source of more single target damage while you're aoeing that 2h lacks.

    Dual wield already uses death and decay and non rime howling blasts on single targets, 2h doesn't use death and decay on single targets and only howling blasts with rime. So if you aoe as 2h you lose a significant amount of single target damage.

    Soaking runic power with ams is a lot more relevant for dw than for 2h because your frost strikes do more damage as dw and you are not focusing on reforging into haste.

    Dual wield is just flat out better at aoeing, the mechanics make it better at dealing with various other situations that are present in the current raid tier, and the disadvantages compared to 2h are mostly irrelevant at this gear level.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2013-02-14 at 06:21 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Your dps on a boss with an extended aoe situation and a damage buff was higher than your dps on a boss with neither.

    This should not require explanation and has nothing to do with your spec.

    As for the actual difference between the specs, they do pretty much the same damage on patchwerk with dual wield pulling ahead on almost everything else. Of course patchwerk is not a boss in t14 and the situations where 2h frost would be better are largely not present in the current raid tier.
    I guess I should have made my sarcasm slightly more obvious.

  20. #20
    Avoid using fights with significant RNG components as measurements for "what is wrong with my DPS?" type issues. Amber-shaper has a LOT of RNG involved. You would be better served using a fight like Feng or Garalon, since you will likely have the same uptime from attempt to attempt and don't have significant RNG or widely different strategies to interfere with your comparisons.

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