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  1. #241
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinoa View Post
    Does anyone know if the AskMrRobot trinket absolute values are correct? Obviously they vary slightly depending on gear, but if they are reasonably accurate I could fashion a full current content trinket list for all three specs rather easily so people don't have to ask on an individual basis all the time.
    Relatively unreliable. Not sure if up-to-date with the revised RPPM model, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Despite what sims say, I still think H LOTC will be BiS overall. The RPPM trinkets are just too RNG, and LotC is almost always up (give or take a few seconds) for your 90s cooldown. Timing BoH or Wushoolay is just a nightmare.

    Not to mention all it does is further widen the gap between our worst RNG and our best RNG.
    Hmm, it's interesting because I get ~30% uptime on Wushoolay's. The uptime from that is, sure, slightly lower than LotC HC, but the overall Intellect gain is still better. Considering Wushoolay's is an apparent 0.56 RPPM I don't understand where your logic is coming from.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Relatively unreliable. Not sure if up-to-date with the revised RPPM model, either.
    o.o I have been using AMR to know what gear to wear at the moment because everything is not so clear. Would anyone be willing to Help me choose what gear I should equip. Maybe i could make a list of my gear.?

  3. #243
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We are up-to-date on the new real PPM system and all of the trinket proc info - in fact, we had it updated within 24 hours of the information being posted We do extensive tests and track down as much information as we can to double-check our results. I'm still stalking the forums to gather as much info as possible.

    Our ranking system is described here. It's very, very thorough and we publish the results of the trinket procs here for each class and spec.

    Note that our process simulates the trinkets to get the average amount of the proc stat you'll get over time. While this is really good most of the time, it does not take into account lining up procs with specific ability cooldowns, etc. For example, there is one trinket in particular that only lines up once or twice in a fight with the Ret Paladin's major cooldowns. So we are working on a way to account for those types of cases.

    My recommendation is to use Mr. Robot's ranked trinket lists in conjunction with our trinket pages. Then Sim your character in SimC (we have an export option), and analyze the results. Trinkets tend to be a personal preference as well, so once you pick the trinkets you like, lock them in. Mr. Robot will select gear around those then
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  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We are up-to-date on the new real PPM system and all of the trinket proc info - in fact, we had it updated within 24 hours of the information being posted We do extensive tests and track down as much information as we can to double-check our results. I'm still stalking the forums to gather as much info as possible.

    Our ranking system is described here. It's very, very thorough and we publish the results of the trinket procs here for each class and spec.

    Note that our process simulates the trinkets to get the average amount of the proc stat you'll get over time. While this is really good most of the time, it does not take into account lining up procs with specific ability cooldowns, etc. For example, there is one trinket in particular that only lines up once or twice in a fight with the Ret Paladin's major cooldowns. So we are working on a way to account for those types of cases.

    My recommendation is to use Mr. Robot's ranked trinket lists in conjunction with our trinket pages. Then Sim your character in SimC (we have an export option), and analyze the results. Trinkets tend to be a personal preference as well, so once you pick the trinkets you like, lock them in. Mr. Robot will select gear around those then
    Not sure if you'll check this post, but Unerring Vision of Lei Shen is listed as .06 instead of a value like the rest. I'm not sure what to make of that. Please translate from Robonese to English?

  5. #245
    Europe, good catch! Since that trinket gives you 100% crit rate, we can't give an average amount of crit gained, since it depends on the crit you already have. If you have 40% crit, you'll gain 60% crit during each proc, for example.

    So the number listed is the uptime percentage. We then calculate the actual value when looking at it on your character.

    I've updated the code to have a comment explaining that. I missed that one, so thanks for catching it and posting here
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  6. #246
    Personally, I think Wushoolays is garbage for fire, stacking int compared to hydra and cha-ye's that are up for a good 10/20 seconds. Yeah, I'd rather not have to wait til my int is stacked before using combustion. But...with how this game works atm in theory I think Wushoo and Hydra would be a sick combo.
    Last edited by KoolKidKaos; 2013-03-22 at 12:26 AM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by KoolKidKaos View Post
    Personally, I think Wushoolays is garbage for fire, stacking int compared to hydra and cha-ye's that are up for a good 10/20 seconds. Yeah, I'd rather not have to wait til my int is stacked before using combustion. But...with how this game works atm in theory I think Wushoo and Hydra would be a sick combo.
    I currently play with a thunderforged hydra and fully upgraded hc light of the cosmos. I really like both buffs last for 20 seconds. I'm planning on getting cha-ye's next but I'm sure I'm gonna hate the 10 sec proc duration. 10 seconds is just really short to line up hot streak+heating up, refreshing my bomb and get my alter time pyro spam going. Especially when also dealing with fight mechanics. 20 seconds just feels far more comfortable. Thats quite a shame gameplay wise, but ultimately its ofcourse going to be far stronger then light of the cosmos.

    Btw, has anyone figured out how the hotfixes to RPPM work exactly. I notice if we wipe really fast and corpserun quickly the 'ensured proc' of my hydra trinket doesnt work (this obviously affects my initial burst greatly). How much time out of combat is needed for it to give the 'greatly increased proc chance'?
    Last edited by willemh; 2013-03-22 at 12:37 AM.

  8. #248
    Guys, i have tested the Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR and Relic 2/2 in 5 10-minutes sessions on dummy. Frost mage, 500ilvl.

    Probably the Wushoolay is BUGGED, with Relic i do more dps than the first one. So until Blizzard fixes this issue, use Relic 2/2 instead of Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR.

  9. #249
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolKidKaos View Post
    Personally, I think Wushoolays is garbage for fire, stacking int compared to hydra and cha-ye's that are up for a good 10/20 seconds. Yeah, I'd rather not have to wait til my int is stacked before using combustion. But...with how this game works atm in theory I think Wushoo and Hydra would be a sick combo.
    I'm kinda feeling eh on Wushoo due to how it works. It's perfect for, say, a Destruction Lock, who can time a Chaos Bolt how they want with it (My Lock alt has LFR Wushoo and praise the titans, it's WONDERFUL to see these huge 700k Chaos Bolts on my awful alt). I simply can't see Wushoo being that great of a trinket for us because you can't predict how many Hot Streaks you'll get (Which can increase or decrease the time on each cycle of an Alter Time).

    Cha-Ye's, Hydra, and LotC are going to be best for us, no doubt, and personally, I just like LotC's reliability to be (almost always) lined up with our Combustions. Didn't get to play with Hydra yet as I passed our only one to our Warlock (felt bad I won 3 pieces previous >.>), and while I do like Cha-Ye, I dislike it's reliability due to needing a Crit (unless it's pretty much guaranteed to procc on our first crit on a pull, in which case I'd be tempted to pull using Pyro-IB).

    Until I get Cha-Ye or Hydra, I'll be sticking with H LOTC (non-upgraded, QQ) and the SPA trinket; replacing the latter with Cha-Ye or Hydra. Once I get both, I'll have to do some decision making.

    Cha-Ye and Hydra (both on Heroic) is pretty much a given to be our BiS. Unerring sucks so bad for us unless you get the fucking stars to align during a full blue moon, and Hot Streaks! are too unreliable for Wushoolay because there's no way to tell how long you'll get.


    So, based on all of this: H Hydra > H Cha-Ye > H LotC 2/2 > N Hydra > H LotC > N Cha-Ye, but that's just my opinion based on reliability and how Fire works.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-03-22 at 07:34 AM.

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  10. #250
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartiv View Post
    Guys, i have tested the Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR and Relic 2/2 in 5 10-minutes sessions on dummy. Frost mage, 500ilvl.

    Probably the Wushoolay is BUGGED, with Relic i do more dps than the first one. So until Blizzard fixes this issue, use Relic 2/2 instead of Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR.
    So do you have any numbers? Trinket Proc uptimes? Amount of FoF/BF procs? Armory link so we know what you tested with gear wise(total)? Anything besides "I do more dps"?

    You do realize that even though you tested for 50 minutes, which is still a very, very small sample, you have a large number of variables to consider before coming to the conclusion that it is bugged.

    Edit- I'm not saying the trinket is good, but I have strong doubts that it is bugged in any way.

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  11. #251
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Hmm, it's interesting because I get ~30% uptime on Wushoolay's. The uptime from that is, sure, slightly lower than LotC HC, but the overall Intellect gain is still better. Considering Wushoolay's is an apparent 0.56 RPPM I don't understand where your logic is coming from.
    I'm just saying, the Intellect gain MAY be better, but if you only get it for a string of non-crit Fireballs or even some Hot Streaks, but not contributing towards a Combustion, does it really matter?

    LotC is ~95% of the time ready when you're gonna do a Combustion. Its lovely 45s ICD makes it line up nearly perfect for every Combustion (PoM'd or PoM/AT, and even unglyphed, if you're actually not using the glyph). Unless you get unlucky and don't get 2 crits (1 to get your HS with IB, another for your HU) in ~14-16s of the trinket's duration (or even getting them early and holding them), your Combust will benefit from it.

    The RPPM trinkets may be "overall better" statwise, but that doesn't mean it's a DPS increase for Fire. For Arcane or Frost, yes, it doesn't really matter as much, but for Fire specifically, things NEED to align with your Combustions. A 522 Trinket procc on Fireball spamming/Pyroblasts NOT towards a Combustion won't be as strong as a 502 trinket procc for Pyroblasts going towards a Combustion.

    In addition to Wushoo being on the RPPM, it's even worse because you have no idea of how many Hot Streaks you'll get during your Pre-Combust cycle, making it hard to time. (Also, I haven't tested it because I don't have it, but I'd love to know how Wushoo interacts with Alter Time...)


    TL;DR: Fire needs reliable trinkets because of Combustion. Wushoo is not only unreliable due to RPPM, but its weird ramp-up system makes it a PITA to align with Alter Time/Random-number-of-Hot-Streaks. For Frost and Arcane, it's a fine trinket to use.

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  12. #252
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    The rppm trinkets like wushoolay still have plenty of rng after the changes. I've had 4 procs back to back and other times no procs for a good few minutes. Even on pulls sometimes it just doesn't proc for quite a while but I think part of it might be because the chance to proc increasing while out of combat is a bit slow.

    Testing on a dummy would be an incredibly bad way to try and test it. Just a reminder but you really need to be using nether tempest to get the most out of wushoolay as frost.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2013-03-22 at 08:54 AM.
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  13. #253
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    LotC is ~95% of the time ready when you're gonna do a Combustion. Its lovely 45s ICD makes it line up nearly perfect for every Combustion (PoM'd or PoM/AT, and even unglyphed, if you're actually not using the glyph). Unless you get unlucky and don't get 2 crits (1 to get your HS with IB, another for your HU) in ~14-16s of the trinket's duration (or even getting them early and holding them), your Combust will benefit from it.
    Yeah, that's why I'm also very sceptical towards the new RPPM trinket. For Combustion and AT I'd like to have "more predictable" procs than the RPPM procs. And as good as crit is for firemage on Cha-Ye, the 10s duration proc seems also a bit risky to get some crits for combustion whereas it should proc twice as much as the other trinkets.
    Questions upon questions...
    So in conclusion, I guess it's a personal decision as the trinkets are more or less of the same value. Pros here, cons there.

  14. #254
    Can I ask how all you guys with the SPA Trinket are finding it? I currently have EoT upgraded twice to 504 and the first day of ToT I bought the SPA one as it was a direct upgrade.

    However, when I went on the dummy, I found that I just couldn't time it with my Combustions very often, less then 50% of the time in-fact as the 10 secs just wasn't long enough for me to build an ignite, not getting crits etc.

    I suppose as it has an ICD and not RPPM, I could make a WA to show when it's off CD and try to line it up before the Trinket prods but that is quite RnG also. In additon, as the ICD is less than half EoTs, I found it usually proced before my glyphed combustion was off CD... Another question on that, are people running with Combustion un-glyphed with this trinket?

    In the end, I gave sold it back to the Vendor and got a different Piece but I'm just about to Cap VP again and need a sick for it, the only other piece thats really good for me from them is the Legs but I'm hopeful of Tier Legs this week

    Thanks

  15. #255
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    Can I ask how all you guys with the SPA Trinket are finding it? I currently have EoT upgraded twice to 504 and the first day of ToT I bought the SPA one as it was a direct upgrade.

    However, when I went on the dummy, I found that I just couldn't time it with my Combustions very often, less then 50% of the time in-fact as the 10 secs just wasn't long enough for me to build an ignite, not getting crits etc.

    I suppose as it has an ICD and not RPPM, I could make a WA to show when it's off CD and try to line it up before the Trinket prods but that is quite RnG also. In additon, as the ICD is less than half EoTs, I found it usually proced before my glyphed combustion was off CD... Another question on that, are people running with Combustion un-glyphed with this trinket?

    In the end, I gave sold it back to the Vendor and got a different Piece but I'm just about to Cap VP again and need a sick for it, the only other piece thats really good for me from them is the Legs but I'm hopeful of Tier Legs this week

    Thanks
    Yeah, the SPA trinket isn't that great, but it's way better than EoT methinks.

    I've gotten it to align with most of my Pull Combustions, unless I get really unlucky with crits. The low ICD on it is so nice. FUCK EoT for that long ass shit.

    The 10s duration though, fuck that noise x.x;

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  16. #256
    Well I'm gona try with LoTC and Wushoolayi instead of VP trinket 522. Seems better

  17. #257
    Hey guys,
    Glad I'm back to playing Fire!
    What I have is 2/2 Relic, 2/2 N LotC, and SPA. I feel like SPA is pretty strong on fights where bloodlust is used on pull or shortly after. After the first combustion it's really hard, and sometimes impossible, to combust during the haste proc. With that said, will N-LotC's proc contribute more to my overall dps than SPA's static int? And isn't Relic better than both of these?

    I haven't seen a Hydra or Cha-Ye's drop yet. I see these as bis. (I don't have HLotC and I'm not going back to get one, unfortunately)

  18. #258
    Hello Again,

    I aquired Wushoo before they made the changes. My questions are the new proc rates apply to it or do i need another one :O Sounds silly so forgive me.

    Currently Using Wushoo and VP trinket as Frost Mage dont got anything else 522, my RoY is 1/2 and my EoT 0/2 normal. I wanted to comment on Wushoo. The proc is really really low or am just really unlucky. Any advice for a frost mage 505 ilvl ?

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    So do you have any numbers? Trinket Proc uptimes? Amount of FoF/BF procs? Armory link so we know what you tested with gear wise(total)? Anything besides "I do more dps"?

    You do realize that even though you tested for 50 minutes, which is still a very, very small sample, you have a large number of variables to consider before coming to the conclusion that it is bugged.

    Edit- I'm not saying the trinket is good, but I have strong doubts that it is bugged in any way.
    Hello Saegno, thank for your interesting answer.

    After this, i decided to give a try: I did a run at Terrace LFR with the 2 trinkets (Relic and Wushoolay). The results of this raid is here worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sjq25v4aeipdjldf/details/6/ .

    You can see that in (say) 35 minutes (2100 seconds) i had 34 procs of Relic 2/2 and 17 procs of Wushoolay LFR.
    So the average intellect of Relic 2/2 is : 1030 + ( (3262 * 510secs of proc) / 2100 secs of raid ) = 1822,2 int.
    The average intellect of Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR: ( 3044 (the average int of proc) * 351.8 secs of proc ) / 2100 secs of raid = 509,9 int!!!

    So according to my maths (if are right! And yes are right, i checked it): 1 Relic 2/2 > 3 x Wusholay's Final Choice LFR!!

    So after the 50-minutes on dummy and 35-minutes on raid, i'm totally sure for that, my friend.
    Personally, I cant trust Simcraft or something like it, because i prefer the results of experiment in real conditions of raid.

    Thank for your time,
    Sartiv.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 11:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mrlooolz View Post
    Hello Again,

    I aquired Wushoo before they made the changes. My questions are the new proc rates apply to it or do i need another one :O Sounds silly so forgive me.

    Currently Using Wushoo and VP trinket as Frost Mage dont got anything else 522, my RoY is 1/2 and my EoT 0/2 normal. I wanted to comment on Wushoo. The proc is really really low or am just really unlucky. Any advice for a frost mage 505 ilvl ?
    Check my post i just made and you will understand i believe.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Sartiv View Post
    Hello Saegno, thank for your interesting answer.

    After this, i decided to give a try: I did a run at Terrace LFR with the 2 trinkets (Relic and Wushoolay). The results of this raid is here worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sjq25v4aeipdjldf/details/6/ .

    You can see that in (say) 35 minutes (2100 seconds) i had 34 procs of Relic 2/2 and 17 procs of Wushoolay LFR.
    So the average intellect of Relic 2/2 is : 1030 + ( (3262 * 510secs of proc) / 2100 secs of raid ) = 1822,2 int.
    The average intellect of Wushoolay's Final Choice LFR: ( 3044 (the average int of proc) * 351.8 secs of proc ) / 2100 secs of raid = 509,9 int!!!

    So according to my maths (if are right! And yes are right, i checked it): 1 Relic 2/2 > 3 x Wusholay's Final Choice LFR!!


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't the average of LFR Wushoolay's like ~6k int for 20 secs/proc? And you compared static int+ proc of relic just against the proc of wushoolays?

    So the real value of Wushoolay's should be around 0,16(taken from your WoL)*6088,5=974.16 int PLUS 1218 hit, which takes it to around 1750-1900(depending on your current gear) int on value

    But still sample size of 2100 seconds is WAY too low to smooth out all the rng.

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