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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Read my post again. It have nothing to do with how often it proc, but the duration of it. I also stated that cha-ye is properly(read more than likely) better, but not because of combustion gains. If you cant understand why a 10s proc is really really bad for fire, there is not point in arguing.
    In a way Wushoo proc is only 5 secs when considering combustion, so its far worse, plus on pulls, you do have most procs for those very first 10 seconds, and they start to fade away when wushoo is at 15 secs. Plus neither wushoo or cha-ye's are really reliable for combustion timings, hence there is no reason to wait for them, but Cha-Ye's procs like mad as fire due to our haste being 15-20% and our crit being way over 40%. I have way over 20% uptime on Cha-ye's atm. And 10 seconds is more than enough to build combustion unless you do not get any crits, which is unlikely with a 7k int proc and 41-45% buffed crit..

  2. #382
    So ive been through a couple pages of this thread and Im wondering if someone could tell me if BotH and Cha-Ye's is BiS for fire hands down? also how does the VP trinket stack up against them? Sorry if this has been asked a million times

  3. #383
    Most of you are overvaluing combustion. Combustion isn't really a great single target ability anymore. It is a decent dps cooldown, but it is not the end all, be all of our dps that it used to be.

    As gear levels get higher, we pyro more and more. Pyroblast is averaging 30-40% of our dps at higher gear levels, with combustion often being only 10%. Therefore, we should be focusing on increasing our pyroblast damage over combustion. Wushoolay's is a great trinket for this, probably better than BoH. I got lucky and coined a heroic thunderforged one, and I really like it. With full stacks, its giving me ~8% crit (iirc) and my pyroblasts are hitting like trucks.

    Breath of Hydra might be better at lower gear levels where pyroblast isn't as high on the damage breakdown, but I really think that Wush will be best in slot

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakaleon View Post
    Question: As fire from some dummie tests i had beter dps with Light of the Cosmos2/2 + Volatile Talisman0/2
    than Volatile Talisman0/2 + Relic of Yu'lon2/2 but im not convinced with that option
    Why not Relic + LotC?

  5. #385
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Your argument of 10s proc being "bad" for Fire is just stupid, that's why.

    Wushoo's gives 1333 Int per stack every 2 seconds, with a maximum of 10 stacks, which you benefit from for 2 seconds.

    For Wushoo's to even match Cha'Ye's Int gain, you have to have 6 stacks, meaning you have to wait 12 seconds into the proc for it to be as good as Cha'Ye, and then you only get "better" gain for 8 seconds.
    Not to mention you get an overall better uptime on Cha'Ye, leading to an overall increased Intellect level and crit level. Your argument is just fundamentally flawed from every angle. The proc duration is less important (again, this is outside of Combustions) if you get an overall better uptime - what's so hard to understand about that?
    I still think your understanding of the buffs are skewed.

    Wushoolay gives 1333 per stack for a total stacking buff of 20s, so yea you have to wait 12 sec to get the same amount (actually 7998int) but then you get another 8s of 5332 int more than what you would get with BotH and Che-ya (and I would get more since I use TF in which I would get 6767 more int for those 8s).

    BotH has a 7333 Int proc for 20s static with passive haste (reforged to crit) which is nice and a direct upgrade from LoTC.

    and my % from both?? 24.4% for Wush and 18.2% for BotH so I have more uptime with Wush AND its giving me more int = SP/Crit which in turn gives + to DPS, I'm not to good with numbers but I am kinda seeing more of a benefit from Wush than the other trinkets specially BotH.

    Now don't get me wrong I still think BotH is a good trinket and I have yet to use Che-ya so I can't compare uptime or whether its easier to time it with burns so I can't comment on the whole 10s proc thing (kinda rude of you to call someone else's opinion stupid lets try to keep this civil yea?) But I have no intention of replacing my Wush with it and BotH will most likely be on the chopping block.

    And after a cursory glance at top Mages with full clears the trinkets I most find are Wush/Che-ya. If the trinket is bad for Fire as you say then why are top mages using it? and if your argument is that they have the gear to supplement them using bad trinkets for Fire then saying its bad for Fire NOW but when you get more gear its GOOD? but as you say in your opinion its bad for Fire compared to the other trinkets and I can respect that I just don't see it from where I am looking.

  6. #386
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    On the Discussion of Cha-ye and woo. You say Woo need good rng. But so do Cha-ye 10s procs are ridiculously bad for fire mages.

    I am not saying woo is better, it properly is not. But when discussing this dont bring the "witch trinket can i use with combustion". Because they are both not reliable for it, and i would even say that woo got the highest chance of giving you some Int gain during ignite build up, unless Cha-ye procs and you get all your crits right after.
    Proccing on Crit AND giving 2.4% Crit is HUGE for Fire.

    The Hit that Wu gives is nothing close to the Crit that CY gives.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  7. #387
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Proccing on Crit AND giving 2.4% Crit is HUGE for Fire.

    The Hit that Wu gives is nothing close to the Crit that CY gives.
    But would you use BotH over Wush with Che-ya? and if so explain why you wouldn't want 5332 more int for 8s than the other two trinkets.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    In a way Wushoo proc is only 5 secs when considering combustion, so its far worse, plus on pulls, you do have most procs for those very first 10 seconds, and they start to fade away when wushoo is at 15 secs. Plus neither wushoo or cha-ye's are really reliable for combustion timings, hence there is no reason to wait for them, but Cha-Ye's procs like mad as fire due to our haste being 15-20% and our crit being way over 40%. I have way over 20% uptime on Cha-ye's atm. And 10 seconds is more than enough to build combustion unless you do not get any crits, which is unlikely with a 7k int proc and 41-45% buffed crit..
    Again please read my post and the context it was posted in. the whole point is to forget about combustion when discussing these trinkets..... I am not saying Woo is better. people just refuse to read my post, and continue to talk about combustion.

    10 seconds is not enough to build combustion when you can't choose when it procs. Its a crit gain, and a Bomb buff when it procs, huge i agree, but again NOT THE POINT. If you feel like 10s is enough build up time for you so be it, i often find even with 20s procs it can be a close call.
    and talking about uptime is irrelevant woo also see 20-25%+ uptime, and when talking about combustion id rather have a few stacks or the possibility of many stacks of woo than having to align the stars within 10s of proc'ing cha-ye, but again my point is to leave combustion out of the equation when evaluating the trinkets, as it is far from reliable and the gains from bombs and nuking is going to make a way bigger difference than the few times where it aligns with combust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Proccing on Crit AND giving 2.4% Crit is HUGE for Fire.

    The Hit that Wu gives is nothing close to the Crit that CY gives.
    at least you somewhat got the point(by not mentioning combust), but informing me of stuff i already know and acknowledge is kinda pointless.




    So ill say it again, yes Cha-ye is better but you guys have tunnel vision. and over value Cha, and under value woo.
    I got Woo last raid while trying to coin roll gloves, and i was a sad panda..

    Any way, i wont comment on this any more.. its pointless and i am sure you wont get the point this time around either. People on the interwebz ftw.

  9. #389
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    at least you somewhat got the point(by not mentioning combust), but informing me of stuff i already know and acknowledge is kinda pointless.




    So ill say it again, yes Cha-ye is better but you guys have tunnel vision. and over value Cha, and under value woo.
    I got Woo last raid while trying to coin roll gloves, and i was a sad panda..

    Any way, i wont comment on this any more.. its pointless and i am sure you wont get the point this time around either. People on the interwebz ftw.
    I'm not undervaluing Wu. I'm just saying compared to Cha-Ye, it's going to lose, and ANYTHING compared to BoH just flat out loses instantly. (Cha-Ye would be > BoH if CY also had a 20s duration). I'm well aware of Wu's value; it's just a smidge under the superior trinket choices.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  10. #390
    as this seems to be (mostly) dedicated to fire, i think everyone can agree that cha- ye is best in slot.

    again, ill say that wushoolays is most likely better then boh. looking at the main stat of the trinket in this case is fairly useless, and if you were going to do that, i would tell you that I would take wushoolay's hands down over BoH. Boh means im stuck with haste, reguardless of what i decide to reforge too. Having more hit rating means i can reforge out of hit somewhere else, most likely for more crit, so in the the comparison of of the base stat values, wush wins hands down because it will most likely lead to more crit.

    as far as procs go, dont overvalue combustion. sure its nice to burst up to 450k dps, but your opening combustion is not a huge part of your damage at all, and sitting on a combustion at some point in a fight waiting for adds to spread to will most likely mean your missing procs anyway. i stand by saying wushoolays is better, but regardless of which one ACTUALLY is better, the difference is probably so minimal that it doesnt matter anyway. if you can grab a thunderforged version of either one of the two, take it and be done with it.

  11. #391
    imo cha-ye is the best trinket because it pretty much procs 100% @pull and 10s is enough to get a good combustion.
    for Boh and wushu to proc 100% you need to wait like 7 minutes pre pull.
    any other combustion is just pure luck and i dont wait for procs.

    i didnt have the chance to test boh with my mage yet, but i really dont think its alot better than wushu. typically i cast 2-3 pyros with wushu @8-10 stacks. that probably outweights the avg int you get from boh.

    therefore ill just take the first thunderforged version of either trinket.

  12. #392
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I'm not undervaluing Wu. I'm just saying compared to Cha-Ye, it's going to lose, and ANYTHING compared to BoH just flat out loses instantly. (Cha-Ye would be > BoH if CY also had a 20s duration). I'm well aware of Wu's value; it's just a smidge under the superior trinket choices.
    I would LOVE you to try to explain why BotH is better than both Cha-ye AND Wushoolay because the numbers just doesn't show it at all, lower uptime and less int than Wushoolay and passive Crit > passive haste anyday for Fire specially with same int proc, yea BotH is 10s longer but id rather have the 2.4% that is constant.


    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    imo cha-ye is the best trinket because it pretty much procs 100% @pull and 10s is enough to get a good combustion.
    for Boh and wushu to proc 100% you need to wait like 7 minutes pre pull.
    any other combustion is just pure luck and i dont wait for procs.
    As explained before Combustion is nice and all but more than likely our lowest DMG done vs FB and Pyro's and even Mage Bomb and id say every pull my Wush proc's in the first 10s of the encounter plenty of time for me to time my first AT burn.

    I agree Cha-ye is a Better trinket than BotH but still imo stands well with Wushoolay's.

  13. #393
    it depends on how fast you pull after a wipe/trash. in my experience wushu isnt proccing every time, so i AT without my second trinket sometimes. cha-ye in comparison procs every time, because it has ~2 times the procs thus a much higher proc chance.
    combustion is not everything thats right. you shouldnt wait for trinket procs to use it.

  14. #394
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Envyadams View Post
    I still think your understanding of the buffs are skewed.

    Wushoolay gives 1333 per stack for a total stacking buff of 20s, so yea you have to wait 12 sec to get the same amount (actually 7998int) but then you get another 8s of 5332 int more than what you would get with BotH and Che-ya (and I would get more since I use TF in which I would get 6767 more int for those 8s).

    BotH has a 7333 Int proc for 20s static with passive haste (reforged to crit) which is nice and a direct upgrade from LoTC.

    and my % from both?? 24.4% for Wush and 18.2% for BotH so I have more uptime with Wush AND its giving me more int = SP/Crit which in turn gives + to DPS, I'm not to good with numbers but I am kinda seeing more of a benefit from Wush than the other trinkets specially BotH.

    Now don't get me wrong I still think BotH is a good trinket and I have yet to use Che-ya so I can't compare uptime or whether its easier to time it with burns so I can't comment on the whole 10s proc thing (kinda rude of you to call someone else's opinion stupid lets try to keep this civil yea?) But I have no intention of replacing my Wush with it and BotH will most likely be on the chopping block.

    And after a cursory glance at top Mages with full clears the trinkets I most find are Wush/Che-ya. If the trinket is bad for Fire as you say then why are top mages using it? and if your argument is that they have the gear to supplement them using bad trinkets for Fire then saying its bad for Fire NOW but when you get more gear its GOOD? but as you say in your opinion its bad for Fire compared to the other trinkets and I can respect that I just don't see it from where I am looking.
    What makes you think that my understanding of the buffs is skewed?

    You have to wait 10s to get a greater amount of Int than Cha'Ye/BotH (first stack is applied on-proc I believe), which leaves 10 seconds of increased Intellect.
    For the first 2 seconds, you only have 665 increased Intellect, for the next two you benefit from 1998, for the next two 3331, then 4664 then 5997.

    Yes, granted Wushoolay's might have a higher uptime than BotH, I recalled something similar (although your BotH uptime seems fairly low - looking at our Megaera HC attempts where Ignite/Pyro drop off and have to be re-applied, my uptimes seem far better - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6b.../21/?enc=wipes), but you have to remember that, effectively, half of this uptime is worse-off than BotH's, as only half of Wushoo's uptime is "valuable".

    What you do with your trinkets is completely up to you. But I'm telling you (with good reason), that you are playing Fire suboptimally if you're not looking to replace Wushoolay's.
    Yes, in pure single-target terms, Combustion isn't as strong as it once was. Yet, funnily enough, there isn't a great deal of single-target this tier. Horridon (heroic), you're spreading Combustion amongst the adds (or should be, unless you're padding meters), Council you can spread it, Tortos you can and should be spreading it, the list goes on, really.
    I can still show you logs where Combustion comes out incredibly well in Single Target damage, even if it's technically skewed data as it's a damage buff fight and I got some ridiculous RNG, but even so, http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r5...e/?s=716&e=993 and considering that it's on a 1.5m CD, for it to comprise ~10-15% of our overall damage is pretty disgusting.

    Combustion is very important to Fire DPS. It's as simple as that. Fire has, and always will, be played around Combustion.

    I never said Wushoo's was bad, I said it was comparatively bad. Another thing you should notice when you look at all the top Mages is that they have an Arcane spec setup as well, and Wushoolay's happens to be BiS for Arcane, and from my understanding Arcane is used on Ra-Den. It's a wild theory, sure, but ever occurred to you that this could be why they're taking it? I even see Daewyn from Paragon and the ScrubBusters Mages all running Arcane properly, too. They could be playing Fire on select fights, you don't actually know if you're not in the guild with them.

  15. #395
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
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    Sorry to chime into this here, but I'm a bit out of touch with my mage and could use some advice. I don't raid atm, but still trying to make wise decisions.

    I'm playing a fire mage and am getting to the point where I have nothing to spend VP on. Looking at the Volatile Talisman VP trinket. Currently have 2/2 upgraded LotC (normal, reforged to crit) and 2/2 upgraded Relic.

    Should I buy it? And if so, which do I switch out?

    Haste seems less important, but it's quite a big proc/jump in intellect. As I said, out of touch with mage. All help appreciated.

  16. #396
    Volatile Talisman is way better than a 2/2 upgraded Relic. i didnt see your other gear, but it most probably would have been the best upgrade of all vp items. in addition to that it works very well with LotC because it is also on a 45s ICD.

  17. #397
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    Volatile Talisman is way better than a 2/2 upgraded Relic. i didnt see your other gear, but it most probably would have been the best upgrade of all vp items. in addition to that it works very well with LotC because it is also on a 45s ICD.
    Tyvm for the reply! My gear is a mess.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Envyadams View Post
    I still think your understanding of the buffs are skewed.

    Wushoolay gives 1333 per stack for a total stacking buff of 20s, so yea you have to wait 12 sec to get the same amount (actually 7998int) but then you get another 8s of 5332 int more than what you would get with BotH and Che-ya (and I would get more since I use TF in which I would get 6767 more int for those 8s).
    wushoolay's final choice(N) gives the user a 20 second buff stacking 1333 int every 2 seconds and one stack the first time the buff is applied to you.
    --> you have 6 stacks after 10 seconds = 7998 int
    10 seconds with less int than boh and 10 seconds with more int than boh.

    you most probably will get better combustions on pull with boh. but the first combustion is not all of your damage. as already said i didnt have the chance to test boh with my mage, but my personal feeling is that casting 2-3 pyros at 9-10 stacks of wushoolays will outdps boh.

  19. #399
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I never said Wushoo's was bad, I said it was comparatively bad. Another thing you should notice when you look at all the top Mages is that they have an Arcane spec setup as well, and Wushoolay's happens to be BiS for Arcane, and from my understanding Arcane is used on Ra-Den. It's a wild theory, sure, but ever occurred to you that this could be why they're taking it? I even see Daewyn from Paragon and the ScrubBusters Mages all running Arcane properly, too. They could be playing Fire on select fights, you don't actually know if you're not in the guild with them.
    Just to clarify I HAVE talked to Ataxus and others who use the trinket and they have all said Wush is better than BotH...not by much but is better and this is for Fire mind you, I used to be on Illidan and so I am well versed of how amazing he plays a mage and when he tells me Wush and Che-ya are good that's who's advice I am going to follow.

    It comes down to what you want to use really my dps is good enough to still be competitive doing HM bosses and to continue progressing so personally I think to each their own and use what ya want really, and so I see no reason to continue discussing a topic that really looking at logs can be argued both ways.

  20. #400
    Sigh, are we really still going with this. BotH is only better if you hero and combustion on pull and you have Cha-Ye's and Wush is better almost always if not, the fights currently are around 50/50 with them though. So which ever you get, be happy abt it. Ultimately you want both and pick on fight basis..

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