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  1. #401
    I'm using the VP trink + Relic 2/2, and just got an LFR Unerring Vision. Should I replace the Relic with it?

    I'm frost, gonna switch over to fire once I get a little bit more crit.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahz View Post
    I'm using the VP trink + Relic 2/2, and just got an LFR Unerring Vision. Should I replace the Relic with it?

    I'm frost, gonna switch over to fire once I get a little bit more crit.
    My advice is to vendor the leishen trinket. Its god awful for mages

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Wushoolay's, even TF, is fairly bad for Fire. As you can't guarantee that it'll proc at perfect times for your Combustion building (compared to, say, Cha'Ye or BotH which both simply need to proc) it ends up being very frustrating, and can actually lead to a dps loss. Just because a high-end Mage takes the trinket, doesn't mean it's necessarily worth taking, they just may not have had an option.
    I'm not saying it's useless; the times it does proc properly for you, it's insane, but if you're planning on replacing either of your trinkets with N Cha'Ye, it should still be your TF Wushoo. BotH and Cha'Ye are both better for Fire, period.
    After playing around with a wuusholays, I'm not sure anymore. Not only does my average uptime match BoTH, but the increase in pyroblast damage seems to make up for sometimes missing out on a combust during the proc.

  4. #404
    VP trinket vs Cha-Ya LFR for fire? I'm leaning towards Cha-Ya

    (Other trink is BotH normal)
    Last edited by MattRas; 2013-04-24 at 11:07 AM.

  5. #405
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    Advice on less-than-optimal trinkets?

    I'd appreciate a little advice on my less-than-optimal trinkets, and I didn't notice any questions earlier in the thread comparing this specific combination.

    I'm currently using the (522) Shadow-Pan Assault, and a (484, 2/2 upgraded) Relic of Yu'lon. For various reasons, I never got any version of LotC, only the (483/LFR) version of EoT, and I haven't gotten any version of Wushoolay's or Cha-Ye's yet. However, I did just get the (502/LFR) version of Breath of the Hydra.

    SPA (522) is better than 502 BotH, right? But what about (502) BotH versus (484) Yu'lon? I ran across some info that said a (484) Yu'lon was still a hair better than even the (522) BotH, but I'm not sure I trust the source (Maxdps.com), and I don't really have time to try and find a tool and sim it myself.

    FYI: I'm Frost, currently at 511 iLvl, and I'm still rocking 4-PC T14 until the RNG gods deign to grant me a 2nd T15 piece.

    Thanks in advance for any input.
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  6. #406
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    502 BotH is much much better then the vp trinket for frost. Yu'lon vs the vp trinket I'm really not sure.
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  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    502 BotH is much much better then the vp trinket for frost. Yu'lon vs the vp trinket I'm really not sure.
    This is the question I'm also wondering as Frost, once I get a Breath of Hydra or Wush reg version which do I sub out, 2/2 Relic of Yulon or Vp trinket?

  8. #408
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Since multiple people asked I just simmed it. Here's a rough trinket list for frost:

    502 Wushoolay > 502 BotH > 502 Cha-Ye > Vp trinket > 484 RoY.

    Remember it could certainly be different for you depending on gear and if in doubt sim it. According to the sims I did BotH and wushoolay are easily the best for frost.
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  9. #409
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattRas View Post
    VP trinket vs Cha-Ya LFR for fire? I'm leaning towards Cha-Ya

    (Other trink is BotH normal)
    Cha-Ye's wins hands down over the VP trinket. It has a damn nice uptime, base crit on it and the proc is miles ahead of the VP proc.
    I'll take an int proc over a very short haste proc for fire any day of the week.

    Now I'm curious. I currently am running Cha-Ye's+Wushoolays. I see a lot of mages around my ilvl(519 currently) running the same instead of using BoTH over Wushoolays. I'm curious about if I should bother trying to get BoTH or just stick with what I have currently. I'm liking the hit and have adjusted to the stacking int on wush, making sure to overwrite NT when it hits 10 stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
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  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Cha-Ye's wins hands down over the VP trinket. It has a damn nice uptime, base crit on it and the proc is miles ahead of the VP proc.
    I'll take an int proc over a very short haste proc for fire any day of the week.

    Now I'm curious. I currently am running Cha-Ye's+Wushoolays. I see a lot of mages around my ilvl(519 currently) running the same instead of using BoTH over Wushoolays. I'm curious about if I should bother trying to get BoTH or just stick with what I have currently. I'm liking the hit and have adjusted to the stacking int on wush, making sure to overwrite NT when it hits 10 stacks.
    BotH is better than Wush if they're the same ilvl for fire at least.

  11. #411
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    BotH is better than Wush if they're the same ilvl for fire at least.
    Kind of what I was thinking. Can reforge the haste to crit and having all the int up front works out better for combustion that having to wait for it to stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Kind of what I was thinking. Can reforge the haste to crit and having all the int up front works out better for combustion that having to wait for it to stack.
    That and the stacking int doesn't really benefit fire that much unless it lines up perfectly with a combustion which is rare.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    That and the stacking int doesn't really benefit fire that much unless it lines up perfectly with a combustion which is rare.
    Techically true, but given that Wush usually procs on pull, your initial combustion will benefit from the stacking int. So there's that.

    But just to clarify, only using Wush as I don't have BotH yet. But it's still a good trinket.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    BotH is better than Wush if they're the same ilvl for fire at least.
    To quote Vykina (method's mage):

    Actually, I had a good think last night about the trinkets and did a bit of napkin math, Wushoolay is 100% BiS, after that I'm not sure whether Breath or Cha-ye will be BiS, the 10 second window on Cha-ye is pretty awkward, and Breath seems to maintain a much higher uptime and align better with Wush. Hopefully I get access to Cha-ye this week just to confirm it.
    In my eyes, what people are forgetting is the fact that Wushoolay doesnt have the same RPPM as Breath of the Hydra, it has a higher RPPM. You cant compare the procs and say 'this proc is better' when you do not consider the uptime of both trinkets. The uptime of Wushoolay is higher, so even if its proc would be worse it could still pull ahead of BotH.

  15. #415
    Wush has way higher uptime than breath for us atm.. So, in a way Wush is better for most fights, only fights that BotH is better is when you luck out really high uptime or hero + combustion on pull, Currently on pulls with HC-TF BotH I have over 60k sp with procs and pot+ raid buffs and with Wush that number is way lower since it has a ramp up that means your first procs run out before it really ramps up. On pulls that start dps doesn't really matter for what ever reason, Wush is indeed better as it procs more over time in the fight, but where you get that massive start burst, BotH is immensly strong, given it has to proc and you have to get high crits for maximum benefit.

  16. #416
    Could someone tell me why Cha'ye would be rated over BoH for frost? Imo the periodic chance to proc for BoH (esp. for frost) should have more uptime than the proc from crits on Cha'ye, or am I looking at it a way I shouldn't?

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    To quote Vykina (method's mage):
    Vykina is wrong abt Cha-Ye's, it has higher uptime than either Breath or Wush for fire due to our crazy base crit. Plus it has 60% more crit rating than either BotH or Wush. And 10 second's is small window, but not something that is too small. Plus you can't delay your combustion for these trinkets so it will go at abt the same spot each time, procs are just benefits if they happen to align with combustion(wont happen much).

  18. #418
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keejos View Post
    Could someone tell me why Cha'ye would be rated over BoH for frost? Imo the periodic chance to proc for BoH (esp. for frost) should have more uptime than the proc from crits on Cha'ye, or am I looking at it a way I shouldn't?
    It's easy. Cha'Ye proc rate increase with haste (like all PPm trinket) and with Crit. As frost, 2 spell are always Critting : IL and FFB. And the other have around 25% chance to Crit. This is why this trinket is good.
    In other hand, Breath need NT or LB to work. And Frost don't have any other DoT.
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  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Vykina is wrong abt Cha-Ye's, it has higher uptime than either Breath or Wush for fire due to our crazy base crit. Plus it has 60% more crit rating than either BotH or Wush. And 10 second's is small window, but not something that is too small. Plus you can't delay your combustion for these trinkets so it will go at abt the same spot each time, procs are just benefits if they happen to align with combustion(wont happen much).
    He's not wrong about it according to my logs.


    Horridon heroic
    Cha - 21 procs - 24.8% uptime
    Breath - 9 procs - 21.5% uptime

    Tortos Heroic
    Cha - 11 - 20.4% uptime
    Brea - 9 - 38.5% uptime

    Council heroic
    Cha - 15 - 26.8%
    Brea - 7 - 27.7%

    Megaera Heroic
    Cha - 14 - 19.8%
    Brea - 9 - 30.2%

    Primordius Heroic ( DC'D mid kill so take it as you will)
    Cha - 11 - 22.1%
    Brea - 4 - 17.8%

    Durumu Heroic
    Cha - 15 - 23%
    Brea - 17.3%

    Dark Animus Normal
    Cha - 7 - 29%
    Brea - 4 - 33.2%

    Iron Qon Heroic
    Cha - 14 - 19%
    Brea - 9 - 28.7%

    Twins Heroic
    Cha - 13 - 23.1%
    Brea - 7 - 20.3%

    Jin Heroic, Ji-kun Heroic, LeiShen normal all didn't log for some reason or another (think our logger was out those fights and the Ji-kun log bugged and counted normal not letting me access the data)

    Overall it looks like Breath was better. (when breath beats cha its about a large percentage on most fights)

    This was done with around 15400 crit and 6500 haste.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Roidzilla View Post
    He's not wrong about it according to my logs.

    (Snip)
    Overall it looks like Breath was better. (when breath beats cha its about a large percentage on most fights)

    This was done with around 15400 crit and 6500 haste.
    Then again I'm getting the exact opposite.

    Cha-Ye's / BotH

    Jin'rokh 19.3% / 18.2%
    Horridon 30.0% / 22.9%
    Council 14.3% / 5.2%
    Tortos 31.6% / 29.3%
    Megaera 18.3% / 21.3%
    Ji-kun 19.3% / 9.3%


    This all was with around 13.3k crit and 6800 haste rating

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