Page 1 of 26
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1

    5.2 Trinket Discussion

    Edit: These numbers are invalid as they have changed the proc rates and added in bad luck protection


    Decided to check out all the trinkets with the new PPM system, if anything is in error please let me know.


    Assuming a raid haste of 25%.

    Trinket formula:

    PPM Based Trinket

    [[(PPM) * 1.25(Haste) * Duration of Trinket] / 60] * Stats granted on proc

    Non-PPM based proc

    [Trinket Duration / (ICD + Time expected to proc)] * Stats granted on proc


    5.2 Trinkets (Normal)
    ==================

    Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault

    1467 Intellect
    8800 Haste for 10 seconds

    [10/50] * 8800= 1760 Haste



    Wushoolay’s Final Choice

    1467 Hit
    1333 Spell power every 2 seconds for 20 seconds

    (7331.5 Average Spell power from proc)


    [[.56*1.25 * 20] /60] * 7331.5= 1710.8 Intellect



    Breath of the Hydra

    1467 Haste
    7333 Intellect on Proc for 20 seconds


    [[.5*1.25 * 20] /60] * 7333= 1527.70 Intellect


    Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen

    1467 Intellect
    Damaging Spells have a chance to grant 100% for 4 Seconds

    (Made assumption of a caster with 40% crit so that the trinket grants 60% crit during the duration)

    [[.5*1.25 * 4] / 60] * 60% = 1500 Critical Strike Rating



    Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance


    1467 Critical Strike Rating
    7333 Intellect for 10 Seconds

    Assuming caster with 40% spell crit.

    RPM = [.77* 1.4] = 1.078

    [[1.078*1.25*10] / 60] * 7333= 1646.87 Intellect


    5.1 Trinkets
    ==============


    Heroic Light of Cosmos (510)

    +1312 Haste
    Chance to gain 3935 Intellect for 20 sec.

    [20/50] * 3935 = 1574 Intellect



    Heroic Essence of Terror (517)

    +1400 Intellect
    Chance to gain 8399 haste for 20 sec.

    [20/130] * 8399 = 1292 haste




    TL;DR

    +++++++++++++

    5.2 Trinkets (Normal)
    ==============

    Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault = [1467 Intellect, 1760 Avg. Haste]

    Wushoolay’s Final Choice = [1467 hit, 1711Avg. Intellect]

    Breath of the Hydra = [1467 Haste, 1528 Avg. Intellect]

    Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen = [1467 Intellect, Avg. 1500 Critical Strike]

    Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance = [1467 Critical Strike, Avg. 1647 Intellect] (*Value is highly dependent on individual crit)



    5.1 Trinkets
    ==============

    Heroic Light of Cosmos (510) = [ 1312 Haste, Avg. 1574 Intellect]

    Heroic Essence of Terror (517) = [1400 Intellect, Avg. 1292 Haste]





    With my hopes to go fire looking to hopefully come true with the current itemized gear I wanted to start looking at trinkets. So with what I got out of these trinket values a few things come to mind:

    -Light of Cosmos is so good.

    -The vision of Lei Shen I assumed with 40% crit, a fire mage is more likely to be over 50%+ on fireball to nearing 60% on Pyroblast meaning that the current estimated crit will be climbing down.

    -Lei Shen will be amazingly good for Spriest and Warlocks assuming the few tests done on PTR were correct, those classes seemed to have their crit percent snapshot in contrast to Boomkins which did not.

    -Wushoolay looks like it will be the powerhouse trinket especially if you can line up the perfect alter at 14 seconds in.

    -Breathe of Hydra seems like it could be far more forgiving with a 20 second duration compared to Cha-Ye's but the infrequency of Hydra's proc could also work against it. Assuming Cha will be a fire BiS it has a more frantic style in contrast with Hydra which will be calmer overall, it just seems interesting to see a variance in trinkets like that.

    -Trying to lose hit in forming your gear will be important if you want to use Wushoolay which will probably be a pain to manage.


    2/14
    ------

    Updated Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance with new Crit based RPPM coefficient.

    2/17
    ------

    Changed Non-RPPM trinket calc, need better way to figure out expected time to proc
    Last edited by Schizophreni; 2013-03-23 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Impressive work you have there sir, though have you attempted the numbers for 5.2 Heroic gear?

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    I have different number from WoWhead. Were did you found these one. Maybe, we need to check them on live. But I have only check 535 trinket.

    For your calculation, it's a good job (not really readable).
    The ppm system isn't this simple.
    An interesting number is the proc rate at 10s (from the previous proc). With it, you can make at sheet to show haste influence on it.
    There's also what can proc what. (dot, spell, crit, etc). I have tweet GC to know if Wushoolay can be proc from Waterbolt ...

    For Lei-shen, the power of the trinket came from the 100% crit. As fire, it's a guaranteed free pyro and an huge ignite. As Frost, it's nothing interesting.
    But Cha-Ye is very powerful for Frost, especially if crit capped and for Fire because of the huge crit rating and multiple DoT to proc it.

    edit> I will take my time for calculation (they can change rapidly).
    But the proc rate at 10s for 0%/25%/50% haste are :

    removed because of error in my formula !!!

    I think that 10s/0.5 ppm is very low for trinket.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 11:51 AM ----------

    Interesting things:
    For a 10s duration, the proc rate at 10s is equal to the uptime.

    And the number of spell that can proc it also have an influence.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 11:52 AM ----------

    Interesting things:
    For a 10s duration, the proc rate at 10s is equal to the uptime.

    And the number of spell that can proc it also have an influence.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 11:53 AM ----------

    and ppm system will not help the haste scaling issue for Frost.
    Last edited by Nathyiel; 2013-02-14 at 06:57 PM.
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Can confirm that Warlocks and Shadow Priests get crit% snapshot upon application. Boomkins and Mages don't.

    Lei Shen will still be strong for Fire due to 4s being turned into 8s with Alter Time (at least on pull). Don't even *need* (obviously better) to have HU/Pyro! up when you AT it, as during the duration you have 100% crit anyway. This allows for potentially maximum-damage Combustions if you can line it up with other trinket procs; as you can get 4 Guaranteed crit Pyroblasts! off during this time.

    That is where the strength for Fire will be; yes it's slightly diminished returns considering Fire is massively stacking crit anyway, but the interaction with Alter Time and Combustion still keeps it strong.

  5. #5
    I think it is a very powerful trinket which used in combination with AT (like Serene said) would give us around 7-8 pyro crits. I would wait until I get a Pyro!+HU proc then proceed with casting a fireball which I would end with a macro containing the trinket + AT + Pyro at the end. So I get 8 seconds of 100% crit in which I squeeze as many pyro's as I can out of which all will crit. Dunno if I should use Combustion after the 3rd Pyro or I can squeeze in a 4th before the ignite from the first pyro falls.

  6. #6
    Shame it drops off Lei Shen
    Fortunately(?) the proc is identical between Normal, Heroic and LFR

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Shame it drops off Lei Shen
    Fortunately(?) the proc is identical between Normal, Heroic and LFR
    yea thats bit odd the proc is EXACTLY the same for lfr,normal,Heroic

    kudos to Schizophreni for the proc details

    its VERY nice to see 4 different trinkets to choose from rather than dull 2 (t14 derp)
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2013-02-14 at 11:59 AM.
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

    5172-1206-0622 pokemon FC Lets Battle!!

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Shame it drops off Lei Shen
    Fortunately(?) the proc is identical between Normal, Heroic and LFR
    This could potentially see it fall behind other trinkets in their HC versions, but for Normal/LFR (LFR wtf -.-) it certainly incredibly strong. Get it off LFR and while you get diminished Int gain the proc is pretty ridiculous

  9. #9
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Germany/BW
    Posts
    901
    Hey guys, I wanted to do some math with Sinister Primal Diamond myself, but I think I missed the whole RPPM discussion. My formula looks like:

    Haste * PPM / 60 = % for the first hit? (stacking every additional hit)

    That leaves me with 30% haste

    1.30 * 0.84 / 60 = 1.82% chance to proc for the first hit and therefore 18.2% for the tenth?

    Got my formulars and numbers from research via google, if they are wrong, a little guide would be nice, how to math out proc chances. Because, I would like to have a proper addon to track my trinkets (it´s bread and butter for a proper damage dealer imho).

    Based on my knowledge, RPPM is a complete nightmare for a damage dealer (mage).

    Thanks in advance

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    Blizzard seem to have made some good work on trinket.

    The choice of the trinkets will have a influence on how to reforge stuff.
    A fire mage with Lei-Shen/Hydra could prefer less crit for more haste and NT over LB. But the same mage with Wushoolay/Cha-Ye will maximise Crit.
    The same will be true for Frost mage with a haste/NT build for Hydra, and a crit caping build for Cha-Ye.

    I'm thinking of they're influence for Arcane.
    If Hydra will be limited to NT user, Lei-Shen can do monstrous burst at 4-stack/full mana.

    My question is about cooldown and trinket proc.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 02:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Hey guys, I wanted to do some math with Sinister Primal Diamond myself, but I think I missed the whole RPPM discussion. My formula looks like:

    Haste * PPM / 60 = % for the first hit? (stacking every additional hit)

    That leaves me with 30% haste

    1.30 * 0.84 / 60 = 1.82% chance to proc for the first hit and therefore 18.2% for the tenth?

    Got my formulars and numbers from research via google, if they are wrong, a little guide would be nice, how to math out proc chances. Because, I would like to have a proper addon to track my trinkets (it´s bread and butter for a proper damage dealer imho).

    Based on my knowledge, RPPM is a complete nightmare for a damage dealer (mage).

    Thanks in advance
    There's the formula that I use:
    For proc rate :
    • [proc_rate] = [ppm]*[haste]*[time_since_last_proc]/60
    with [time_since_last_proc] capped at 10s maximum
    with [haste] in the 1.xx form (for xx%)
    with [proc_rate] in %

    With ppm, the proc rate change with the time since the last proc. So at the start, you will have 1.82% chance and 18.2% after 10s. It's the maximum.
    So every hit after 10s will have the same proc rate.

    In theory, you can chain proc but it's rarely the case. Except under Bloodlust,
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  11. #11
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Germany/BW
    Posts
    901
    Thank you Nathyiel, your formula is saved : ) So it´s seconds and not hits with a cap of 10s. It puts RNG to the table, doesn´t it? Addons like ExtraCD are useless then, you will never now, when it could proc and save Cooldowns like IV, Pots, Mana Gem or whatever.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    Yep, it's not an ICD so it can be predicted.
    You can easily test it with Jade spirit enchant. It's 2ppm, near 50% up-time depending of fight and haste.

    But for tracking, it will be reaction instead of prediction.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 03:46 PM ----------

    I just found out some calculation that I have made for my guild forum.
    At 2 ppm, it's a proc every ~25s
    I have use something like this : interval=60/(ppm*haste)

    For 25%/30%/35%/50% haste :
    • 0.50 ppm - 96s/92s/89s / 80s
    • 0.56 ppm - 86s/82s/79s / 71s
    • 0.84 ppm - 57s/55s/53s / 48s
    • 1.00 ppm - 48s/46s/44s / 40s
    • 2.00 ppm - 24s/23s/22s / 20s

    It's not very accurate but I have good result with it.
    For Jade enchant, it explain why it chain proc under BL/TW because it will proc every 20s on average for a 20s duration.
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    There's the formula that I use:
    For proc rate :
    • [proc_rate] = [ppm]*[haste]*[time_since_last_proc]/60
    That is wrong. It is [time_since_last_chance_to_proc] which is quite different from [time_since_last_proc]. Your chance does not increase the longer you go without a proc, it increases the longer you go without casting (to a max of 10 seconds).
    Last edited by Tickspoon; 2013-02-14 at 03:39 PM.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    That is wrong. It is [time_since_last_chance_to_proc] which is quite different from [time_since_last_proc]. Your chance does not increase the longer you go without a proc, it increases the longer you go without casting (to a max of 10 seconds).
    Sounds right, but wouldn't that mean that if I spam FB with ~1,9s (18% haste), the proc chance with 0.5 RPPM will never be higher than

    0.5 * 1.18 * 1,9 / 60 = 1,86833% per FB hit?

    Seems quite low for me! (And if dots also trigger the trinket, it would be even lower due to more frequently damage dealing = more proc chances with low percentages)
    Smaiki <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    That is wrong. It is [time_since_last_chance_to_proc] which is quite different from [time_since_last_proc]. Your chance does not increase the longer you go without a proc, it increases the longer you go without casting (to a max of 10 seconds).

    Good catch !!!
    It explain why I have so high proc rate. It buzz me all day.

    @Smakaii: yes, ppm proc rate have to be very low. A 0.5ppm is design to proc every 2 minutes.
    Example for a "proc on dot" trinket with "Firmage", a fire mage with NT:
    Firmage is dealing in 3s a lot of "proc event" : 3 from NT, 1 from pyro's dot, 3 from ignite. It's 7 proc event in 3s, with 0 haste (for more easy calculation). For making simple, it's ~2 dot by second. 1 proc event every 0.5s.
    So we have proc rate = ppm*haste*t_since_last_chance/60 = 0.5*1*0.5/60 = 0.42%.

    Now, with Arcmage (a arcane mage with NT). He only have 1 dot per second with NT. It's proc rate is 0.5*1*1/60 = 0.83%
    And we have Frosmage (frost mage with LB), with 1 tick every 3s. It's proc rate is 2.5%

    On 12s, they have, respectively, 24, 12 and 4 proc chance. It give them 10.08% in 12s, 9.99% and 10%. (proc chance is really so easy to math but it's for the demonstration, and it's a good approximation)
    It explain why all spec, even with only 1 dot, can use "proc on dot" trinket with good result.

    but why dot class have always better result with this type of trinket ?
    Simply because, they much more dot than other with only 1 dot. Even with a lower proc rate, the more proc event you have, the more chance to proc there is.

    It will e the same with the glyph of Icy veins and the "proc on crit" trinket. W/o the glyph, it will proc on IL/FFB with the shatter crit (~80%) with a 2s/3s time_since_last_chance. With the gllyph, the 3 minibolt will give 3x80% chance to crit and even if the 3 crit, the first will have a good proc rate with the 2s/3s time_since... and the other two will also have a chance to proc but with a time_since of 0.2s.

    Conclusion :
    The number of proc event have a influence on the uptime but limited in comparison of haste. Just keep in mind that haste increase the proc rate but decrease the time between proc event.

    Why blood/TW/hero boost so much the proc rate ?
    because the GCD cap is at 1s and because you launch every thing you have (combu, frozen orb, missile, etc).


    Finally, a big thanks to Tickspoon for showing my mistake.

    proc rate :
    [ppm]*[haste]*[time_since_last_proc_chance]/60

    approximated interval :
    60/([ppm]*[haste])

    approximated up-time :
    [ppm]*[haste]*[duration]/60
    personal note : the dev that design the ppm system is a genius !!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 07:56 PM ----------

    GC announce some chance to the trinket is more likely to happen, especially Cha-Ye who can made scaling with crit.
    It will be interesting.
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Can confirm that Warlocks and Shadow Priests get crit% snapshot upon application. Boomkins and Mages don't.

    Lei Shen will still be strong for Fire due to 4s being turned into 8s with Alter Time (at least on pull). Don't even *need* (obviously better) to have HU/Pyro! up when you AT it, as during the duration you have 100% crit anyway. This allows for potentially maximum-damage Combustions if you can line it up with other trinket procs; as you can get 4 Guaranteed crit Pyroblasts! off during this time.

    That is where the strength for Fire will be; yes it's slightly diminished returns considering Fire is massively stacking crit anyway, but the interaction with Alter Time and Combustion still keeps it strong.
    Any reasons why the crit would be snapshotted for warlocks / shadow but not boomkins and mages? Odd behaviour...if true.
    Smaiki <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  17. #17
    Do you have proof because Crit% in the game, World of Warcraft, does not snapshot for any classes. Why would a trinket make a class work 100% different from how the game has for 7 years unless it's a bug. Crit is a dynamic stat, when the buff goes away so does extra %. Haste and SP/Int are snapshot, but maybe you're thinking about the interaction they have with extending their dots?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    I have different number from WoWhead. Were did you found these one. Maybe, we need to check them on live. But I have only check 535 trinket.
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/items?filter=sl=12;minle=522

    The hover tool tips are broken but if you click on each trinket you can see the current stats.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dominian View Post
    Do you have proof because Crit% in the game, World of Warcraft, does not snapshot for any classes. Why would a trinket make a class work 100% different from how the game has for 7 years unless it's a bug. Crit is a dynamic stat, when the buff goes away so does extra %. Haste and SP/Int are snapshot, but maybe you're thinking about the interaction they have with extending their dots?
    You can confirm it by getting the lucky do crit buff from the red jars along the Burlap Trail and clicking it off, warlocks and spriests are definitely keeping the crit chance for dots casted with it.

  19. #19
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominian View Post
    Do you have proof because Crit% in the game, World of Warcraft, does not snapshot for any classes. Why would a trinket make a class work 100% different from how the game has for 7 years unless it's a bug. Crit is a dynamic stat, when the buff goes away so does extra %. Haste and SP/Int are snapshot, but maybe you're thinking about the interaction they have with extending their dots?
    Well I know for a fact Mage DoTs are vastly different from Warlock ones, so I wouldn't be surprised if Crit worked differently.

    For instance, putting NT on an add on Sha of Fear and then going back to the center will make him deflect the DoT. (NOT referring to the "arcane fish")

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 12:21 AM ----------

    UPDATE ON A TRINKET EVERYONE!

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    - Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance – [0.77*(1+SpellCritChance)] RealPPM on critical harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.
    ^ is the one that proccs from crits.

    In addition, Unerring Vision trinket (the one that grants 100% crit for 4s) may be on Flaskataur for us to try out.

  20. #20
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6?page=92#1834


    They changed how the RPPM coefficient is calculated for Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance, I changed the main post but I used a crit value for what I'm assuming a full normal ToT fire mage will have.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •