Page 5 of 26 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
15
... LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    RPPM isn't some "new" thing; it's been in the game since 5.0

    Haste won't have enough of an effect on RPPM to make it viable for Fire, or indeed any other class/spec combo to stack PURELY for trinket gains.
    Your underestimating thE effect

    Example - if I start at 5250 taking 5900 away from crit and adding it to haste go get to 11150 I increase the value of my meta by 13%, increase the value of my hydra trinket by 15%, increase the value of proc on crit trinket 6% while increasing total value from stat weights considered by 2%

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Your underestimating thE effect

    Example - if I start at 5250 taking 5900 away from crit and adding it to haste go get to 11150 I increase the value of my meta by 13%, increase the value of my hydra trinket by 15%, increase the value of proc on crit trinket 6% while increasing total value from stat weights considered by 2%
    And yet it decreases the ammount of pyroblasts by a shit ton.. It is true that you will prolly get increased values with haste, but 15% increase to hydra trinket is what? 300 int? 6% from on crit trinket is around 100 int and 13% on the meta equals to around 270 haste?

    So lets see you want us to sacrifice 12.76% crit for ~400 int and 270 haste gain on procs?

  3. #83
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    When it's finished casting, not when it hits.

    However, some spells, like Scorch, Fire Blast, and Arcane Blast hit at the same time they're finished casting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:58 AM ----------



    Is the 5k Haste cap our 5032 rating (with 5% raid buff of course) for our 4th tick of Combustion (Glyphed)? Just curious what the significance of 5k is :3
    It's 5036 (check my c# program below ) and i already reach it nowadays with full reforge. Dunno why you're all talking to reach that cap with 5.2 or should I go on full crit/mastery after 3056? Simmed both, haste slighty better.
    Last edited by Smaikiii; 2013-02-19 at 05:47 PM.
    Fire Mage 14/14 25H <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  4. #84
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Your underestimating thE effect

    Example - if I start at 5250 taking 5900 away from crit and adding it to haste go get to 11150 I increase the value of my meta by 13%, increase the value of my hydra trinket by 15%, increase the value of proc on crit trinket 6% while increasing total value from stat weights considered by 2%
    Please, underestimating the effect?

    11150 gives you a raid haste rating, buffed, of ~30%.

    For a 0.5 PPM trinket, the maths is like this:

    (0.5*1.3*10)/60 = 10.8% chance to proc

    Compare this to 10% at 20% haste.

    So, at best you're increasing chances to proc by what, 0.8%?

    Also, can you show your maths to get the values that you did? I think, if anything you're overestimating the value gain from Haste.

    Haste allows you to cast spells faster and DoTs to tick more over the duration, nothing else. So you can cast more Fireballs, great. The fact that these are going to be critting a LOT less as Fire means you will lose DPS, end of discussion unless you can provide maths that suggests otherwise.

    I'm being stubborn here, but I really think you've done your maths wrong.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    It's 5036 (check my c# program below ) and i already reach it nowadays with full reforge. Dunno why you're all talking to reach that cap with 5.2 or should I go on full crit/mastery after 3056? Simmed both, haste slighty better.
    Well come 5.2, majority of crit gear will have haste on them rather than mastery, so getting to 5036 should be pretty easy..

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    And yet it decreases the ammount of pyroblasts by a shit ton.. It is true that you will prolly get increased values with haste, but 15% increase to hydra trinket is what? 300 int? 6% from on crit trinket is around 100 int and 13% on the meta equals to around 270 haste?

    So lets see you want us to sacrifice 12.76% crit for ~400 int and 270 haste gain on procs?
    Revising, at the mentioned haste numbers, the meta is 13 better on uptime with haste and 30% better on value

    But yes you got it 5900 haste plus the ~700 more hate on the meta and the 284 more int on the trinkets is worth more then 5900 crit

  7. #87
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Well come 5.2, majority of crit gear will have haste on them rather than mastery, so getting to 5036 should be pretty easy..
    My point was that I already have now enough haste to reach the 5036-cap (with ilvl 499) and not just with 5.2. With 5.2 we might get the next higher cap (@7073 haste) if it's better than mastery.
    Nevertheless, just to mention it a third time: most ignites will divide into 3 ticks...
    Fire Mage 14/14 25H <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Revising, at the mentioned haste numbers, the meta is 13 better on uptime with haste and 30% better on value

    But yes you got it 5900 haste plus the ~700 more hate on the meta and the 284 more int on the trinkets is worth more then 5900 crit

    What are the values of the relative stat weights you are using?



    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    My point was that I already have now enough haste to reach the 5036-cap (with ilvl 499) and not just with 5.2. With 5.2 we might get the next higher cap (@7073 haste) if it's better than mastery.
    Nevertheless, just to mention it a third time: most ignites will divide into 3 ticks...

    I did my normal mode ideal gear set and I ended up with:

    Hit: 5100
    Haste: 5744
    Crit: 13801
    Intellect: 14862


    Without enchants and mastery to haste.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizophreni View Post
    What are the values of the relative stat weights you are using?






    I did my normal mode ideal gear set and I ended up with:

    Hit: 5100
    Haste: 5744
    Crit: 13801
    Intellect: 14862
    I am at a smiliar number in gear for 522 bis -21500 stat points split between haste and crit (with blacksmithing and enchants)

    The stay weights I am using are crit:3.1 haste:2.6 int :4.8


    And I want to emphasize again simcraft comes out with trinket and meta support soon - and those results will be much more conclusive then Averaging proc rates and finding out equilavant value in at weights. I'm goin to let this rest until I can run confidant sims and get a solid conclusion
    Last edited by ArchitechSK; 2013-02-19 at 10:31 PM.

  10. #90
    Like serene already said, Haste will not effect the RPPM in any big way.

    (x*1.y*z)/60=

    x=rppm
    y=Hastevalue
    z=Seconds Proc

    30% Haste:(0.5*1.3*10)/60=10.8%
    20% Haste:(0.5*1.2*10)/60=10%
    10% Haste:(0.5*1.1*10)/60=9.16%

    The reason for this mechanik is not to let more haste cause more procs, its to give Specs with less haste the same chance to proc/uptime.
    Last edited by Ascylia; 2013-02-20 at 01:30 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascylia View Post
    Like serene already said, Haste will not effect the RPPM in any big way.

    (x*1.y*z)/60=

    x=rppm
    y=Hastevalue
    z=Seconds Proc

    30% Haste0.5*1.3*10)/60=10.8%
    20% Haste0.5*1.2*10)/60=10%
    10% Haste0.5*1.1*10)/60=9.16%

    The reason for this mechanik is not to let more haste cause more procs, its to give Specs with less haste the same chance to proc/uptime.
    10.8/9.16 =1.17

    that rppm at 10.8 is 17% better the the rppm @ 9.16% - adds up

    with a proc that average 1167 int - its worth about 200 int more
    Last edited by ArchitechSK; 2013-02-20 at 04:00 AM.

  12. #92
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    10.8/9.16 =1.17

    that rppm at 10.8 is 17% better the the rppm @ 9.16% - adds up

    with a proc that average 1167 int - its worth about 200 int more
    Why are you comparing to 9.16? We've already discussed Fire will probably shoot for 5056 which is ~20% Haste when buffed.

    10.8/10 = 1.05, so actually 5% better.

    So you will get ~5% more uptime on 1167 Int (even though that's probably wrong due to PPM model)

    1167*1.05 = 1225.35
    1225.35-1167 = 58.35 Average Int.

    So, sacrificing 5900 crit for Meta Proc (will wait on numbers) and for 58 extra Int? No.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-02-20 at 11:25 AM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Why are you comparing to 9.16? We've already discussed Fire will probably shoot for 5056 which is ~20% Haste when buffed.

    10.8/10 = 1.05, so actually 5% better.

    So you will get ~5% more uptime on 1167 Int (even though that's probably wrong due to PPM model)

    1167*1.05 = 1225.35
    1225.35-1167 = 58.35 Average Int.

    So, sacrificing 5900 crit for Meta Proc (will wait on numbers) and for 58 extra Int? No.
    Iirc 5250 is 12.9% haste and 11150 is 28.5% both raid buffed no frost armor

  14. #94
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Iirc 5250 is 12.9% haste and 11150 is 28.5% both raid buffed no frost armor
    Raid buffed? God no, wrong on both fronts.

    Those values are without raid buffs.

    But, hey. Let's do this properly.

    1.129*1.05 = 1.185 = 18.5%
    1.285*1.05 = 1.349 = 34.9% <- my bad; this figure is higher than I was expecting.

    So:

    (0.5*1.185*10)/60 = 9.86%
    (0.5*1.349*10)/60 = 11.2%

    So:

    11.2/9.86 = 1.136

    So 13.6% difference, ~ 13.6% increased uptime.

    1167*1.136 = 1325 Average Int
    1325-1167 = 158.7 Average Intellect Increase.

    So, you're gaining 159 Intellect increase, on average, from a trinket proc due to increased uptime. However, you are sacrificing 5900 Crit to obtain this value. Sure, you're pushing this crit into Haste, but haste =/= crit in terms of weight.

    Stat weights works out that it's ~2.1 Crit / Intellect; therefore for this to be a DPS increase, you would only be able to sacrifice <335 Crit, or 335 crit equivalent; which you aren't. Haste has a ~1.7 value compared to Crit's ~2.1.

    Therefore, giving up (2.1*5900) for a (1.7*5900) increase means you're losing 12390-10030 PP, or 2360 PP

    2360/2.1 = 1123 Crit "loss"; 1123 > 335, therefore still a hefty DPS loss.

    Feel free to check through my maths, could be a little bit off.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-02-20 at 03:37 PM.

  15. #95
    I am pretty confidant my haste numb for with raid huffs are correct, however it's inconsequential ad the raid buffs will divide out.

    Other then that your math seems fine, and we are coming to the same conclusion. Ad mentioned in one of my previos posts the trinket you just worked out is atleast 13% better (I am predicting 14.5% better when accounting for the metas effect on he trinket) the other trinket is 6% better ( ad this one scales with crit and haste) bringing your 1123:335 to ~1123:503 and the meta is 13% better on uptime which is 32% better on compounded effect bringing you ratio to about 1123:1150

  16. #96
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    I am pretty confidant my haste numb for with raid huffs are correct, however it's inconsequential ad the raid buffs will divide out.

    Other then that your math seems fine, and we are coming to the same conclusion. Ad mentioned in one of my previos posts the trinket you just worked out is atleast 13% better (I am predicting 14.5% better when accounting for the metas effect on he trinket) the other trinket is 6% better ( ad this one scales with crit and haste) bringing your 1123:335 to ~1123:503 and the meta is 13% better on uptime which is 32% better on compounded effect bringing you ratio to about 1123:1150
    No they aren't considering I was getting 12.5% Haste raid-buff with 3056 Haste.

    Have they released Meta Proc rates and the like? If so I've missed them but will happily do the Maths for it.

    Another thing to factor in is that with the Meta and your haste you will be under GCD cap while under both BL and Meta proc; leading to DPS loss during this. Lot to factor in.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    No they aren't considering I was getting 12.5% Haste raid-buff with 3056 Haste.

    Have they released Meta Proc rates and the like? If so I've missed them but will happily do the Maths for it.

    Another thing to factor in is that with the Meta and your haste you will be under GCD cap while under both BL and Meta proc; leading to DPS loss during this. Lot to factor in.
    Okay serious question - I have chugging along with the assumption that 425 hate rating is 1% haste. If that's true then 3056 haste is 7.19% unbuffed haste percent

    Meta is afaik .86 rppm for 30% haste for 10 secs. Big thing to watch out for is the the trinket rppm scales with it own proc afaik

  18. #98
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Okay serious question - I have chugging along with the assumption that 425 hate rating is 1% haste. If that's true then 3056 haste is 7.19% unbuffed haste percent

    Meta is afaik .86 rppm for 30% haste for 10 secs. Big thing to watch out for is the the trinket rppm scales with it own proc afaik
    1.0719 * 1.05 (raidbuffed) ~ 1.125
    Why shouldn't the meta rppm scale with its buff if afaik the current haste is used?
    Last edited by Smaikiii; 2013-02-20 at 04:47 PM.
    Fire Mage 14/14 25H <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  19. #99
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchitechSK View Post
    Okay serious question - I have chugging along with the assumption that 425 hate rating is 1% haste. If that's true then 3056 haste is 7.19% unbuffed haste percent

    Meta is afaik .86 rppm for 30% haste for 10 secs. Big thing to watch out for is the the trinket rppm scales with it own proc afaik
    You are correct - 425 Haste rating is 1%.
    5056/425 = 11.89%, so infact my numbers are still wrong; but I doubt they will change the conclusion.

    Ok, .86 RPPM

    11,150/425 = 26.24%

    So base Haste values are 11.89% and 26.24% respectively.

    Therefore on the Meta proc (as we know the trinket proc won't change much)

    11.89% Haste is 17.5%
    26.24% Haste is 32.5%

    (0.86*1.175*10)/60 = 16.8%
    (0.86*1.325*10)/60 = 18.99%

    18.99/16.8 = 13% difference, confirming what you said.

    30% Haste proc

    1.175*1.3 = 1.5275
    1.325*1.3 = 1.7225

    So under proc; 52.75% Haste and 72.25% Haste respectively

    52.75*425 = 22,418 - 5056 = 17,362.75 Haste gain for 10 seconds
    72.25*425 = 30706.25 - 11150 = 19556 Haste gain for 10 seconds

    at 0.86 PPM; over 6 minute fight, will proc ~5.16 times throughout a fight by default.

    5.16*10 = 51.6 seconds

    51.6/360 = 14.33% Normal uptime
    0.1433*1.13 = 16.2% uptime

    Therefore @ 5056 Haste; average gain from Meta is 2488.66 Haste
    However, @ 11150 Haste; average gain from Meta is 3166.68 Haste

    Therefore averaging to a Haste gain of 678.02 Haste

    IGNORING the increased chance to proc during Meta Proc (maths would get too complex; feel free to do it yourself though);

    The gains are (with one specific trinket as specified above):

    158.7 Intellect and 678.02 Haste + 5900 Haste

    The losses are 5900 Crit

    If we put everything into 'Crit value'.

    Intellect is 2.1*Value, Haste is ((1.7*Value)/2.1)

    Therefore gains are (333.27 + ((6578.02*1.7)/2.1))
    Losses are 5900

    Gains = 5658.33
    Losses = 5900

    Therefore, still DPS loss.

    Feel free to check through Maths and methods; quite tired so easily could have made a mistake.

    EDIT: Re-did my Maths; noticed it was wrong
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-02-20 at 05:14 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    1.0719 * 1.05 (raidbuffed) ~ 1.125
    Why shouldn't the meta rppm scale with its buff if afaik the current haste is used?
    okay I found the error resulting from my confusion - while I am confidant that haste is better then crit up to the point where the stay weights change, this change happens much sooner then previously calculated. This is a significant error in my math.

    And I thinker meta proc rate should be expected to increase with the haste gained my the proc - we are on the same page with that


    Ibappoligize aginnfor my typos and poor English it's hard to correct them on my phone :/

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •