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  1. #361
    picked up LFR Unerring Vision (502).
    I have the shadow pan assault and relic (unupgraded).
    for fire, should I switch out one for Unerring?
    And what about for frost? Is it useful?

  2. #362
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    For Fire, go Shadow-Pan Assault and Relic, Unerring is pretty piss-poor.

    Again, for Frost, because of Shatter Unerring isn't great. In fact, it's a pretty useless trinket all-round for Mages.

  3. #363
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    I use TF Wush and N BotH (waiting to replace with N Che-ya) I building off what I have seen from high end mages such as Ataxus and going off what their advise and DPS is reflecting. IMO Shadow-pan isn't very good (speaking for fire) and yea id agree with Dragon H LoTC was pretty fantastic but the size of buff from new trinkets just over shadows the more procs from lesser trinket.

    Unerring is kinda sucky from what I can tell so shouldn't be on any mages trinket list.

    Pretty much either Wush/Che-ya/BotH are going to be main focus for trinkets with progression mages and really they all shine given certain circumstances so non of those are really bad trinkets as far as I can tell.

  4. #364
    Is this possible that flr version of Cha-Ye's is better than 522 Volatile Talisman or Woshoolay in fire spec? I'm confused -.-"

  5. #365
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Envyadams View Post
    I use TF Wush and N BotH (waiting to replace with N Che-ya) I building off what I have seen from high end mages such as Ataxus and going off what their advise and DPS is reflecting. IMO Shadow-pan isn't very good (speaking for fire) and yea id agree with Dragon H LoTC was pretty fantastic but the size of buff from new trinkets just over shadows the more procs from lesser trinket.

    Unerring is kinda sucky from what I can tell so shouldn't be on any mages trinket list.

    Pretty much either Wush/Che-ya/BotH are going to be main focus for trinkets with progression mages and really they all shine given certain circumstances so non of those are really bad trinkets as far as I can tell.
    Wushoolay's, even TF, is fairly bad for Fire. As you can't guarantee that it'll proc at perfect times for your Combustion building (compared to, say, Cha'Ye or BotH which both simply need to proc) it ends up being very frustrating, and can actually lead to a dps loss. Just because a high-end Mage takes the trinket, doesn't mean it's necessarily worth taking, they just may not have had an option.
    I'm not saying it's useless; the times it does proc properly for you, it's insane, but if you're planning on replacing either of your trinkets with N Cha'Ye, it should still be your TF Wushoo. BotH and Cha'Ye are both better for Fire, period.

  6. #366
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Wushoolay's, even TF, is fairly bad for Fire. As you can't guarantee that it'll proc at perfect times for your Combustion building (compared to, say, Cha'Ye or BotH which both simply need to proc) it ends up being very frustrating, and can actually lead to a dps loss. Just because a high-end Mage takes the trinket, doesn't mean it's necessarily worth taking, they just may not have had an option.
    I'm not saying it's useless; the times it does proc properly for you, it's insane, but if you're planning on replacing either of your trinkets with N Cha'Ye, it should still be your TF Wushoo. BotH and Cha'Ye are both better for Fire, period.
    Oh I fully plan on testing both and will use whichever gives the best output but really timing the proc is the same as the others, just needs to proc. Now granted yea it might take a min to proc and sometimes it doesn't line up with your burn but mine seems to always proc about 10s into a fight so for my first AT burn its there.

    BotH procs alot too and so when they both are up omgerd the numbers just fly and really at this time its what I have like you said.

    I still think its a decent trinket for fire and shouldn't be ignored.

  7. #367
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Envyadams View Post
    Oh I fully plan on testing both and will use whichever gives the best output but really timing the proc is the same as the others, just needs to proc. Now granted yea it might take a min to proc and sometimes it doesn't line up with your burn but mine seems to always proc about 10s into a fight so for my first AT burn its there.

    BotH procs alot too and so when they both are up omgerd the numbers just fly and really at this time its what I have like you said.

    I still think its a decent trinket for fire and shouldn't be ignored.
    No, Wushoolay's doesn't just "need to proc". If it procs too "early" you'll have an automatically weaker Combustion than the other two. It literally has to proc at almost the exact right time for it to be better than the other two. It's worth it if you're extremely lucky, else it's a DPS loss.

  8. #368
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    For Fire, go Shadow-Pan Assault and Relic, Unerring is pretty piss-poor.

    Again, for Frost, because of Shatter Unerring isn't great. In fact, it's a pretty useless trinket all-round for Mages.
    Unless you get some godlike luck on it lining up with a Combustion, I'd say Arcane is the only specc to get some minor use out of it, but even then, you're gimping yourself unless you don't have same-tier trinkets.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    No, Wushoolay's doesn't just "need to proc". If it procs too "early" you'll have an automatically weaker Combustion than the other two. It literally has to proc at almost the exact right time for it to be better than the other two. It's worth it if you're extremely lucky, else it's a DPS loss.
    Serene, what would you say are BiS for Frost as I'm starting to take it more seriously?

    I'm thinking BoH and Wushoolay, but I'm guessing I'm wrong there.

    (And yeah, Wushoo is way too RNG for Fire. Tried and hated it. Too RNG like everything else, lol)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-21 at 12:44 PM.

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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Unless you get some godlike luck on it lining up with a Combustion, I'd say Arcane is the only specc to get some minor use out of it, but even then, you're gimping yourself unless you don't have same-tier trinkets.
    Arcane has better alternatives (Wushoo, Cha'Ye), and lining up one "godly" Combustion per fight isn't worth taking a trinket for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Serene, what would you say are BiS for Frost as I'm starting to take it more seriously?

    I'm thinking BoH and Wushoolay, but I'm guessing I'm wrong there.

    (And yeah, Wushoo is way too RNG for Fire. Tried and hated it. Too RNG like everything else, lol)
    You're correct, as far as I'm aware. I think it's fairly close between Cha'Ye and BotH as Frost does have a significant amount of crit at later gear levels, but I think it's the static Haste on BotH that makes it preferable. Wushoo's is really strong for both Frost and Arcane.

  10. #370
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Arcane has better alternatives (Wushoo, Cha'Ye), and lining up one "godly" Combustion per fight isn't worth taking a trinket for.

    You're correct, as far as I'm aware. I think it's fairly close between Cha'Ye and BotH as Frost does have a significant amount of crit at later gear levels, but I think it's the static Haste on BotH that makes it preferable. Wushoo's is really strong for both Frost and Arcane.
    Oh I'm aware it has better alternatives. I'm just saying if you had like NOTHING in T15, it might be worth it purely for the 2 ABL Crits you'll get, on top of the stat stick Intellect.

    So Wushoo is BiS for Frost? Bah. Was hoping I could just use BoH and Cha-Ye while I wait to get a bit more gear to go back to Fire (sick of the shitty RNG I keep getting and the meta being garb for it doesn't help)

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  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Oh I'm aware it has better alternatives. I'm just saying if you had like NOTHING in T15, it might be worth it purely for the 2 ABL Crits you'll get, on top of the stat stick Intellect.

    So Wushoo is BiS for Frost? Bah. Was hoping I could just use BoH and Cha-Ye while I wait to get a bit more gear to go back to Fire (sick of the shitty RNG I keep getting and the meta being garb for it doesn't help)
    I can't confirm 100% that it's BiS for Frost, but considering Frost can a) hold procs (FoF, not BF) and b) doesn't have Combustion, I can imagine it being very strong.

  12. #372
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I can't confirm 100% that it's BiS for Frost, but considering Frost can a) hold procs (FoF, not BF) and b) doesn't have Combustion, I can imagine it being very strong.
    Yeah true.

    I plan to go back to Fire though, so meh. I won't take Wushoo from our Lock (when we finally get it to drop :| our drops have been garbage all tier)

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  13. #373
    On the Discussion of Cha-ye and woo. You say Woo need good rng. But so do Cha-ye 10s procs are ridiculously bad for fire mages.

    I am not saying woo is better, it properly is not. But when discussing this dont bring the "witch trinket can i use with combustion". Because they are both not reliable for it, and i would even say that woo got the highest chance of giving you some Int gain during ignite build up, unless Cha-ye procs and you get all your crits right after.

  14. #374
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    On the Discussion of Cha-ye and woo. You say Woo need good rng. But so do Cha-ye 10s procs are ridiculously bad for fire mages.

    I am not saying woo is better, it properly is not. But when discussing this dont bring the "witch trinket can i use with combustion". Because they are both not reliable for it, and i would even say that woo got the highest chance of giving you some Int gain during ignite build up, unless Cha-ye procs and you get all your crits right after.
    Because Fire stacks crit and Cha'Ye procs off crit at a comparatively high RPPM, it a) gives you better uptime, b) doesn't give conditional Intellect.
    You say "don't bring Combustion into the discussion" but there's no way not to - Combustion is integral to Fire and therefore it forms a large basis of the argument against Wushoo, it's as simple as that.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    On the Discussion of Cha-ye and woo. You say Woo need good rng. But so do Cha-ye 10s procs are ridiculously bad for fire mages.

    I am not saying woo is better, it properly is not. But when discussing this dont bring the "witch trinket can i use with combustion". Because they are both not reliable for it, and i would even say that woo got the highest chance of giving you some Int gain during ignite build up, unless Cha-ye procs and you get all your crits right after.
    ^These are my thoughts as well as far as Wushoo vs Cha-ye goes. What do they call that? Catch 22? Yea...

    I haven't received a Cha's yet so I have no first hand experience with it, but I currently use Wushoo's (and Breath). For all the bad luck I get, I get good luck too. I bet Cha's 10-second buff would feel the same way.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Because Fire stacks crit and Cha'Ye procs off crit at a comparatively high RPPM, it a) gives you better uptime, b) doesn't give conditional Intellect.
    You say "don't bring Combustion into the discussion" but there's no way not to - Combustion is integral to Fire and therefore it forms a large basis of the argument against Wushoo, it's as simple as that.
    Read my post again. It have nothing to do with how often it proc, but the duration of it. I also stated that cha-ye is properly(read more than likely) better, but not because of combustion gains. If you cant understand why a 10s proc is really really bad for fire, there is not point in arguing.

  17. #377
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Read my post again. It have nothing to do with how often it proc, but the duration of it. I also stated that cha-ye is properly(read more than likely) better, but not because of combustion gains. If you cant understand why a 10s proc is really really bad for fire, there is not point in arguing.
    Your argument of 10s proc being "bad" for Fire is just stupid, that's why.

    Wushoo's gives 1333 Int per stack every 2 seconds, with a maximum of 10 stacks, which you benefit from for 2 seconds.

    For Wushoo's to even match Cha'Ye's Int gain, you have to have 6 stacks, meaning you have to wait 12 seconds into the proc for it to be as good as Cha'Ye, and then you only get "better" gain for 8 seconds.
    Not to mention you get an overall better uptime on Cha'Ye, leading to an overall increased Intellect level and crit level. Your argument is just fundamentally flawed from every angle. The proc duration is less important (again, this is outside of Combustions) if you get an overall better uptime - what's so hard to understand about that?

  18. #378
    You just refuse to read(understand) my point so ill stop arguing as it is pointless. I understand and already know everything you posted, but that is besides the point!..

    facepalm

  19. #379
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    You just refuse to read(understand) my point so ill stop arguing as it is pointless. I understand and already know everything you posted, but that is besides the point!..

    facepalm
    Your original point was "Cha'Ye needs good RNG as well"; which isn't true. It's a higher RPPM (especially for Fire). It's far, far more likely to proc when you need it to than Wushoo's is, which was what I was getting at with "it leads to higher uptime". If I'm still missing your point, to avoid me calling you stupid again (and in future), just spell it out.

  20. #380
    Question: As fire from some dummie tests i had beter dps with Light of the Cosmos2/2 + Volatile Talisman0/2
    than Volatile Talisman0/2 + Relic of Yu'lon2/2 but im not convinced with that option

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