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  1. #1

    [Prot] Damage done on tank swap boss

    First of all sorry I havnt got any logs:

    I play with a Monk Tank- on bosses with shared vengence (tank swapping) I seem to be about 10-15k behind him in DPS.

    I just figured this wasn't an issue it has happened before, however looking at the next patch notes it seems like blizzard are not buffing / nerfing monks, becasue I only play with a Monk I was wondering if anyone is having the same problem? (i uslaly sit at around 60k, he sites 70-80k)

    Also on trash (or multiple mobs) he pulls stupid numbers compared to me, don't think I'm doing anything wrong, just wanted to know if anyone has the same issues.

    Dont get me wrong- im not complaining paladins bring alot of amazing utility just seems weird to me.
    Last edited by Tomhvk; 2013-02-14 at 01:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    BrM rather than WW for tanking? Secondly, we can't help tell you why or what's up until you give us an armory link of yourself definitely and if you could get his as well then that's a bonus ^^

  3. #3
    In my experience paladin tanks deal more damage than all the other tanks. DKs have the potential on single target to beat us and BrM can beat us on AE, but generally it feels like paladins win out on most fights.

    Paladins are not so good on trash.

    Though as always, about tank damage, vengeance, vengeance vengeance.

    If one tank soaks up more damage, he will do more damage. I do always twice the damage of my druid co-tank. That is not because I am alot better or because paladins are OP. We just find it better to stack vengeance on 1 tank rather than to share, both for healers and for the tanks.
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  4. #4
    I play both a WW monk i somtimes tank with, and a paladin tank/dd.
    My experiennce differs too regarding tank damage.

    Though i do have higher Ilvl on my paladin, i'm doing disproportionally more damage on him compared to my monk at raiding levels of vengeance.
    On WoE normal, a fight with very little variance to incoming tank damage and execution, i pull about 70k on my monk and 90k on my paladin.

    Paladins scale really well with vengeance, partly due to the fact they gain more vengeance then other tanks to begin with - so the higher it gets, the higher the difference.
    And this gap will only increase with more gear, especially with higher mastery values.

    Lets say a Boss hits a paladin for 300k unmitigated damage for 100k after armor etc.
    He now hits SotR with an additional 50% DR at roughly same time the hit occurs. (In the window of your latency)
    Now for vengeance calculation it will calculate backwards.
    100k Hit occured, 50% DR from SotR is active, so had to have been 200k, resulting in vengenace beeing calculated from an assumed 600k base hit.

    It happens more often then you'd think, as a paladin i often have quite a few real outliers in damage done this issue is cause of.
    Talking about 300k avengers shield HITs for example... where normally, a 250k CRIT would already be high.
    Over a whole fight, this occurances result in an higher then usual average level of vengeance then any other tank, as paladins are the only ones with an infrequently active -%damage.
    Last edited by Envar; 2013-02-14 at 12:57 PM.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    <--- Brewmaster monk here.

    We do silly amounts of damage. Really, really, REALLY stupidly large damage IF PLAYED WELL. A lot of monks are, bluntly, really bad at tanking and either sacrifice their active mitigation to pump their DPS up to insane levels for the short period before they go splat, or do the opposite and crash their damage due to over-zealous usage of Purifying Brew. AoE opportunities are a really good measure here: a Brewmaster has the capacity to blast out hilarious numbers if he spends all his energy on Keg Smash and SCK and all his Chi on Breath of Fire, but unless it's a roflstomp situation he'll basically be similar to trying to heal a plate-wearing DPS.

    Even so, a Brewmaster maintaining his active mitigation without borking his damage-dealing (ie using Keg Smash exactly on cooldown, filling every single blank GCD with Tiger Palm, not wasting Chi on frivolous PB usage, getting full-benefit Expel Harms and not Chi Wave'ing during low-intensity periods, to name a few) is a force to be reckoned with. On single-target and tank-swaps I'm usually sitting just behind the lowest DPS and miles beyond our warrior tank. On AoE I'm at the top; no question about it.

    Basically, don't feel weird about sitting behind a Brewmaster on the logs. I've been saying this ever since the beta, but our damage output is ridiculous.
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  6. #6
    Protadins are killing it as far as single target damage/threat goes among tanks, even over monks.

  7. #7
    I do 170k dps on heroic elegon, because I am tanking the boss for the most part, and tanking the boss in the final phase until 20 seconds before the end, when the other tank takes over (so that he can get some vengeance too, and mine won't expire until the end of the fight).

    It all depends on how long you are tanking the boss for, and whether you take over in a "lull" or a "peak".
    Last edited by Butler Log; 2013-02-14 at 02:25 PM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    <--- Brewmaster monk here.

    We do silly amounts of damage. Really, really, REALLY stupidly large damage IF PLAYED WELL. A lot of monks are, bluntly, really bad at tanking and either sacrifice their active mitigation to pump their DPS up to insane levels for the short period before they go splat, or do the opposite and crash their damage due to over-zealous usage of Purifying Brew. AoE opportunities are a really good measure here: a Brewmaster has the capacity to blast out hilarious numbers if he spends all his energy on Keg Smash and SCK and all his Chi on Breath of Fire, but unless it's a roflstomp situation he'll basically be similar to trying to heal a plate-wearing DPS.

    Even so, a Brewmaster maintaining his active mitigation without borking his damage-dealing (ie using Keg Smash exactly on cooldown, filling every single blank GCD with Tiger Palm, not wasting Chi on frivolous PB usage, getting full-benefit Expel Harms and not Chi Wave'ing during low-intensity periods, to name a few) is a force to be reckoned with. On single-target and tank-swaps I'm usually sitting just behind the lowest DPS and miles beyond our warrior tank. On AoE I'm at the top; no question about it.

    Basically, don't feel weird about sitting behind a Brewmaster on the logs. I've been saying this ever since the beta, but our damage output is ridiculous.
    An equally skilled prot paladin and brm monk, getting the same amount of tank uptime, the paladin will win on single target. Warriors are really far behind currently the other tanks on single target. Often find myself top dps on a lot of fights, and usually always some dps behind me.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    An equally skilled prot paladin and brm monk, getting the same amount of tank uptime, the paladin will win on single target. Warriors are really far behind currently the other tanks on single target. Often find myself top dps on a lot of fights, and usually always some dps behind me.
    Just checking:

    Vengeance is calculated before mitigation yes?
    Using glyphs for AS, TV, Double Jepadry Glyphs (obviously boss dependant) - is the HW glyph a decent dps increase on single target boss?
    Using CS > Judge > X (where is X is AS>AW>Consecration>HW)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomhvk View Post
    Just checking:

    Vengeance is calculated before mitigation yes?
    Using glyphs for AS, TV, Double Jepadry Glyphs (obviously boss dependant) - is the HW glyph a decent dps increase on single target boss?
    Using CS > Judge > X (where is X is AS>AW>Consecration>HW)
    Vengeance is calculated pre mitigation yes.

    Which glyphs is fight dependant. Prot does not have templars verdict so won't do much good. Double Jeopardy is great if you can pull it off, but it require a lot of focus. I have tried mixing it in on emperors using two different hotkeys, one to judge each emperor. Ulitmately more hassle than what it was worth. Though if you can handle it, sure go for it. HW is a bit boss dependant, better on some fights than others. Same goes with focused shield.

    Hard to say "this is the best glyph".

    Common dps glyphs. ( not counting battle healer and dprot ) is alabaster shield, focused shield, final wrath, double jeopardy. Which one is completely fight dependant.

    Which filler is best changes a bit depending on your vengeance levels. Especially after the 5.2 change consecration will be far behind on single target.
    The most important thing is that you use every global and do not overlap consecrations. Which filler you use is not the biggest deal in world. Except prioritising AS and Consecration on multiple targets of course.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomhvk View Post
    Just checking:

    Vengeance is calculated before mitigation yes?
    Using glyphs for AS, TV, Double Jepadry Glyphs (obviously boss dependant) - is the HW glyph a decent dps increase on single target boss?
    Using CS > Judge > X (where is X is AS>AW>Consecration>HW)
    1) Yes, veng is calculated on the damage value going out, not what is received.

    2) Not quite sure what you're referring to here, as TV is a ret-only ability and glyph. If AS means Focused shield, then it is one of our best DPS/threat glpyhs for ST fights. However, it's a severe loss on 2 targets or more. If AS means Alabaster Shield glyph, then it is a DPS increase, but subpar on ST fights or fights that have little to no frequent melee (i.e. Lei Shi). Also not sure what the AW in your "AS>AW>Cons>HW" priority is; Avenging Wrath, aka wings?

    3) Best DPS/threat glpyhs for ST: Focused shield, Focused Wrath, Alabaster Shield. In that order. And frankly, I'd be hard pressed to give up Battle Healer (and DivProt, but thats personal).
    Best DPS/threat for MT: Alabaster Shield, Double Jep, Focused Wrath. In that order, assuming you use a focus macro or something for DJ glyph.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    3) Best DPS/threat glpyhs for ST: Focused shield, Focused Wrath, Alabaster Shield. In that order. And frankly, I'd be hard pressed to give up Battle Healer (and DivProt, but thats personal).
    Best DPS/threat for MT: Alabaster Shield, Double Jep, Focused Wrath. In that order, assuming you use a focus macro or something for DJ glyph.
    Isn't focused wrath the minor glyph? Final wrath is the major I believe.

    Battle Healer is hard to pass up on the fights that you use SoI, but that is not all fights.
    D-Prot is also awesome but also highly fight dependant. I don't like it on Feng, Gara'Jal, Elegon, Lei-Shi, Protectors, Tsulong. Sometimes I don't take it on spirit kings aswell. Other fights I ust don't think it matters like garalon for example so I don't think I even use it for half the fights this tier.

    ( Standard haste vs stamina/mastery argument. Dprot is a survival increase on some fights, but it is big enough that it is worth sacrificing a dps glyph for it? )
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

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  13. #13
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    Its not even worth changing seal anymore Firefly since truth/censure and righteousness both got nerfed into the ground, just sit with SoI up.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Isn't focused wrath the minor glyph? Final wrath is the major I believe.

    Battle Healer is hard to pass up on the fights that you use SoI, but that is not all fights.
    D-Prot is also awesome but also highly fight dependant. I don't like it on Feng, Gara'Jal, Elegon, Lei-Shi, Protectors, Tsulong. Sometimes I don't take it on spirit kings aswell. Other fights I ust don't think it matters like garalon for example so I don't think I even use it for half the fights this tier.

    ( Standard haste vs stamina/mastery argument. Dprot is a survival increase on some fights, but it is big enough that it is worth sacrificing a dps glyph for it? )
    Yeah, I knew I was getting the name wrong, but I figured most people knew what I was referring to. Final Wrath is what I meant.

    I agree the BH is only useful on fights where you use SOI, but for me, that's all fights. DivProt I keep in MOST times, the few that I swap are for Lei Shi, HC protectors, and used to do it for HC feng. Expecting it to see similar use (as in, swapping) in 5.2 given the "thunder-theme".

    In terms of your last point: Its a survival increase on most ANY fight (minus Lei Shi) given that, by and large, the majority of damage that threatens a tank is going to be physical. So having a 40ish sec CD barkskin is pretty damn useful. But, if you're pushing rankings, you most likely have the content on farm and can easily afford to give it up in favor of a DPS glpyh. However, I'd be curious to see how much overall damage a DPS glyph (which is NOT focused shield or alabaster shield, as I'm considering those "mandatory" for the sake of this thread) like DJ or Final Wrath really contributes.

    DJ is a 20% increase on Judgement (which doesn't exactly tickle at high vengeance), but requires certain situations to be present and the player to use/abuse those. Taking Protectors, for example, you'd have to judge a non-kill target to get a 20% bigger judge on the kill target. Cool, bigger judge. Problem is that it's less USEFUL damage on the kill target than just judging x2 on him to begin with.

    Final Wrath is undoubtedly a DPS increase, but it comes only at the last 20% of the fight, which usually lasts for far less than 20% of the encounter when you factor in how many fights require heroism/burn at the end, and execute classes.

    Not trying to say you don't have a point when the issue is pushing WOL rankings, but I'm not (personally) going to forego my base survival requirements to do so. Unless it's farm, in which case nothing matters anyway
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mushedcow View Post
    Its not even worth changing seal anymore Firefly since truth/censure and righteousness both got nerfed into the ground, just sit with SoI up.
    It is in some circumstances. Not even an arguement. Saying otherwise is being ignorant.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #16
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    I OT to a Warrior, and he seems to do excellent dps on many fights where I lack quite a bit. basically if you are not MT you are going to deal less damage. The warrior tank actually has terrible gear and is around 100k less HP than I am buffed up. but he has been the MT for the guild for ever so I just OT, my MS is DPS anyway. I also always run in SOI for the healing even if I am just healing myself the extra 25-30K HPS is hard to pass up for a minimal maybe 5-8K dps increase. Then again I hate pally tanking, it is my OS so I am probably wrong here.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah, I knew I was getting the name wrong, but I figured most people knew what I was referring to. Final Wrath is what I meant.

    I agree the BH is only useful on fights where you use SOI, but for me, that's all fights. DivProt I keep in MOST times, the few that I swap are for Lei Shi, HC protectors, and used to do it for HC feng. Expecting it to see similar use (as in, swapping) in 5.2 given the "thunder-theme".

    In terms of your last point: Its a survival increase on most ANY fight (minus Lei Shi) given that, by and large, the majority of damage that threatens a tank is going to be physical. So having a 40ish sec CD barkskin is pretty damn useful. But, if you're pushing rankings, you most likely have the content on farm and can easily afford to give it up in favor of a DPS glpyh. However, I'd be curious to see how much overall damage a DPS glyph (which is NOT focused shield or alabaster shield, as I'm considering those "mandatory" for the sake of this thread) like DJ or Final Wrath really contributes.

    DJ is a 20% increase on Judgement (which doesn't exactly tickle at high vengeance), but requires certain situations to be present and the player to use/abuse those. Taking Protectors, for example, you'd have to judge a non-kill target to get a 20% bigger judge on the kill target. Cool, bigger judge. Problem is that it's less USEFUL damage on the kill target than just judging x2 on him to begin with.

    Final Wrath is undoubtedly a DPS increase, but it comes only at the last 20% of the fight, which usually lasts for far less than 20% of the encounter when you factor in how many fights require heroism/burn at the end, and execute classes.

    Not trying to say you don't have a point when the issue is pushing WOL rankings, but I'm not (personally) going to forego my base survival requirements to do so. Unless it's farm, in which case nothing matters anyway
    DJ and FW is generally a bigger dps increase than AS, and DJ if used properly is the biggest dps increase of all glyphs. Especially with SW talented.

    FW can be nice on burn phases aswell. Like heroic elegon, the last 20% is arguably the only 'hard' part of the fight. Making it very valuable. On some fights with adds and shit, you get several 20% burn phases.

    I would not say that Dprot is a survival increase for most fights, as on most fights its the physical + magical damage combo that kills you. Having SotR up for the physical and dprot for the magic damage is often the best survival tool. Like Elegon, Dprot for breath and damage in p2 and p4 is awesome. He melees for shit.

    Same goes for gara'jal Dprot for the shadowy attacks is awesome and having sotr for the melee hits. Far more useful than having it glyphed. + Enrage used to be tight on gara'jal, so see no reason glyphing a glyph that lowers your dps and gives you lower survivability on a fight like that.

    Tsulong, breath kills you nothing else, having it glyphed makes absolutely 0 sense.

    I like having it unglyphed during stone guards to be able to clear mines without having cobalt up (if there are alot of mines)
    The physical damage is non issue anyway.

    Not like I have it unglyphed for wind lord or such. Like having it unglyped for bladelord though as the p1 damage is non issue. p2 damage is far more lethal. So rather reduce p2 damage than p1.

    Arguably, noticeable increase in survivability on Vizier, Windlord, Empress, Emperor, Sha. Other fights it doesn't really matter.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #18
    I can see how your value of DJ would go up given that you run SW; we'll have to agree to disagree on that, as I can't bring/force myself to use it over HA. I do think, though, that your talent choice in that tier makes judgement a higher portion of your damage (obviously) and can skew the value of DJ glyph commensurately. Personally, AS is ~ 35% more damage on an encounter than J for me, so DJ has nowhere near the value of FS. Likewise, ShotR is a higher portion of my damage than J as well, putting DJ squarely in 3rd (or 4th) place for my talent setup and gearset.

    But that doesn't change the fact that many fights don't even have a viable second target to proc DJ. Stone Guard, Garalon, Wind Lord, Ambershaper, Protectors (though, as discussed prior, this is "useless" damage) are the only fights where DJ is consistently useful. The following are fights that have situational use of DJ: Feng* (heroic only, and only during shield phase when not Nullifying adds), Garajal* (Spirit realm only), Spirit Kings* (heroic only during transitions, maybe on shadow orb), Elegon* (adds when available), WotE* (adds when available/in range), Shekzeer* (add phase only), Tsulong* (heroic only for night phase, I guess daytime can be used), Lei Shi* (add phase only). Fights with no use ever: Vizier (unless you count heroic and have some REALLY weird strat), Blade Lord, Sha (minus HC, but I can't speak to that).

    Comparing that to FS or AlabShield or FinalWrath, all of which are more-or-less "passive" (i.e. require no outside thought/focus/bindings to use), and do not require a specific target scenario, I don't see how it's really worth using unless you take SW on those specific fights. Assuming you take Battle Healer, you have 2 spots for other options. Would you not take FS-or-Alabaster (depending on fight, obv), and DivProt? Or FS/Alab and Final Wrath?

    I agree on some points of magic versus physical and regret that I didn't give a full run-down of each fight. I've not unglyphed DivProt in MSV in ages, but I suppose it was helpful on Elegon and Garajal progression in its time. That's just a far more obvious, personal and situational change for most people, instead of math-based issues like DPS, which is what I was attempting to focus on. I merely brought it up to point out that for a portion/majority of the fights this tier, there will be times that you have only one option for a DPS glyph, rather than 2-3. And, as such, it is important to figure out which one is worth the most.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  19. #19
    yeah of course in no way saying DJ is a main glyph. It is situational. It is the best dps increase with perfect settings, however that does not happen often. More an exception than a rule
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #20
    Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and neither of us was misunderstanding, or (worse) missing something.

    Cheers.

    Now that this thread is WELL off-topic, carry on gents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

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