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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and neither of us was misunderstanding, or (worse) missing something.

    Cheers.

    Now that this thread is WELL off-topic, carry on gents.
    Fail to see how this is off-topic as the topic is how to max dps on bosses and we are talking about which glyph is useable on which fight.

    I for one see Dprot just as situational as DJ is.

    And you know me, I am all about opening peoples eyes to other ideas. That is mostly my main goals with a lot of my posts. To get people to consider other possibilities, question their cookie cutter builds, ask themselves "Is my build actually the best?". I think a lot of people are using sub-par glyphs and talents and gear on a lot of fights simply because it is "standard" and it is what guides says. (read as: PoJ, HA, not utilizing unconventional gear, ghost iron dragonling etc)

    Not saying that what I suggest often is the best either (except for maybe PoJ, makes no sense to use that talent). Though I think stuff like HA has it's uses. However I believe HA is more situational than SW.
    People using the mastery trinket from Elegon for any other reason than "I want higher item level so I can epeen show off in stormwind/orgrimmar". There are very few exceptions depending on peoples gear where Elegon trinket can be viable, but in 99% of the cases it is not. Basically if your gear forces hit and expertise cap even after reforging away from them, then it can be worth it, if you somehow got hit/exp on like all your gear.

    Now that was a bit off-topic...

    @OP

    If you are talking about tank swap fights, on fights where you have a fixate ability like Gara'Jal, you can spam taunt when the other tank is tanking to get vengeance. You can also utilize fast taunts and taunt backs if your vengeance falls low. I.e. communicate with your other tank, throw up a taunt and he instantly taunts back. Taunting a boss gives you 50% of the vengeance that the MT have.

    We often utilize this on WotE, we taunt eachothers bosses during the dance with a macro. Can be abused on most fights tbh.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-14 at 07:24 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #22
    Off topic in terms of glyph discussions rather than damage between tank classes. Interesting, informative, but not what the OP was discussing originally.

    At any rate, given your status on these forums as one who challenges the norm, which is why I brought up your contention of GID as a BiS item in the main prot compendium. Horrible syntax there, but CBA to fix right now.

    That said, I appreciate having someone in the community who likes to argue against conventional wisdom. Doesn't mean I agree with all of your suggestions, but it certainly makes for better conversation and discussion on both sides of whatever topic is at hand. As so much of the PVE endgame can vary wildly based on comp, raid size, group skill, raid dps/hps, etc it truly becomes difficult to have a "best in X" list.

    Case in point: POJ. I use that talent almost exclusively as Prot, as I feel it works better for me and allows better, more controlled use and delivery of speed when needed. As an Engineer, I have my on-demand sprint, should I need it; mostly why I ignore SoL. Long Arm is nice, and its uptime is quite high (neighborhood of 55%), but it's more of an on/off speed increase instead of the slower but constant POJ. Dodging rings on HC Vizier, for example, control is better than speed. I've seen our disc priest accidentally kill DPS with Body&Soul by running them into trailing orbs. Granted that using J is YOUR decision, and unlikely to catch you by surprise like the previous scenario, you may find you have to hold J to not outpace the orbs, or stagger/stutter (effectively rendering the talent pointless at that moment). TL;DR, I haven't found anything that I couldn't dodge, avoid, move into or out of with 115-130% speed, so I stick with POJ. Could I do the same content with LAotL? Probably; 100-145%@55% uptime speed ends up averaging around the same overall velocity, but I prefer the smooth nature of POJ and being able to hold onto 3 HoPo for perma 130% when needed.

    I suppose we could dive into a HA vs SW debate regarding usefullness in terms of survival, dps contribution, ShotR uptime, and any number of other things. I doubt though, that either of us would change our preferences. Both talents (I suppose ALL) are situational, which is part of what makes this tier so interesting to talk about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  3. #23
    PoJ had 2 uses this tier. Dodging rings on vizier. (however still prefer LAotL as it is far superior for intercepting the beam on Vizier and switching platforms)
    And Emperors dance (arguably). I found PoJ better while learning the dance but LAotL after that.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nd-discussions

    As for HA vs SW, rather sure I could convince you to atleast swap between HA and SW for some fights given a 2 page blog post about it.
    HA is extremely situational, has some uses.
    However that is a discussion for another thread Maybe the prot paladin guide. We will see. Thing is, I can't make that point without first defining tanking, tank damage, tank stats and what is important as a tank. The actual why SW is better is quite short, however laying the foundation to the argument would take me several hours to write up :P
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-14 at 07:49 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #24
    Tiny necro, but i find that to be a really healthy discussion about thinking outside the box and trying different stuff. I really enjoy your posts firefly (like everyone else likely does). I rerolled from warrior to paladin after the content was cleared and for example i've found that HA, Holy Prism and LaotL are amazing on heroic sha.

    First off for picking up orbs LaoTL wins out easily, it has very good uptime (40-45% was it?) and increases with haste. It feels incredible for orb duty, and in phase two it's such a reliable talent to get out of implacable strike, even if implacable strike never was hard to avoid it just feels very natural to me since you stand still a lot of that fight. An on demand speed boost with a lot greater uptime than speed of light is exactly what you want for this fight.

    Same goes for holy prism, it's a utility talent that can actually dish out a lot of healing on platforms as it consistently hits all 5 players unlike lights hammer with it's tiny radius, and then you simply use it on yourself whenever adds are in cleave range in phase 2.

    HA makes too much sense in P1 for me to try out SW, because there's consistently right around 2 minutes between the pull and coming back again to the main platform. I'm ashamed to say i haven't played with SW much at all since i started my paladin, but i would like to do it a bit more next tier. Any current fights where it's especially good, or is it always consistent?

    Wanted to simply share how i reasoned when picking my talents for a fight like sha, even if it's offtopic.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Tiny necro, but i find that to be a really healthy discussion about thinking outside the box and trying different stuff. I really enjoy your posts firefly (like everyone else likely does). I rerolled from warrior to paladin after the content was cleared and for example i've found that HA, Holy Prism and LaotL are amazing on heroic sha.

    First off for picking up orbs LaoTL wins out easily, it has very good uptime (40-45% was it?) and increases with haste. It feels incredible for orb duty, and in phase two it's such a reliable talent to get out of implacable strike, even if implacable strike never was hard to avoid it just feels very natural to me since you stand still a lot of that fight. An on demand speed boost with a lot greater uptime than speed of light is exactly what you want for this fight.

    Same goes for holy prism, it's a utility talent that can actually dish out a lot of healing on platforms as it consistently hits all 5 players unlike lights hammer with it's tiny radius, and then you simply use it on yourself whenever adds are in cleave range in phase 2.

    HA makes too much sense in P1 for me to try out SW, because there's consistently right around 2 minutes between the pull and coming back again to the main platform. I'm ashamed to say i haven't played with SW much at all since i started my paladin, but i would like to do it a bit more next tier. Any current fights where it's especially good, or is it always consistent?

    Wanted to simply share how i reasoned when picking my talents for a fight like sha, even if it's offtopic.
    Teks the necromancer! Nah, just kidding

    Ehr, yeah, thats exactly what I mean, people are looking for a cookie cutter build when there are none. Too few people do like you and look at a fight and change talents accordingly. HP is very good on Sha platforms, and that is one of the niches for HP.

    There are talents that are "generally" better, however most talents got some valid uses in a fight or two depending on the strat you use.

    My LaoTL is currently sitting at about 65-70% uptime. Though as I always say and mentioned in the Tier 1 talent thread I linked, it is the effective uptime that counts. Most often, you can adjust your movement so that you move when you have the buff up, and most movements are shorter than 3 seconds. It doesn't matter if LAotL is down when you are standing still, if it is up for say 90-95% of the time when you actually gotta move, well then the actual move speed increase is 41.5 or 43.75%. And on a lot of fight the effective uptime is 100%. PoJ can't even remotely compete with that except on some exception fights like Vizier and Emperor where I know that some people prefer PoJ (for very valid reasons), though as I have no issue avoiding the orbs or the devestating combos with LAotL, I never bother changing. LAotL is superior for the remainder of Vizier, though for Emperor PoJ is probably the best choice, though as long as you do not fail on the swings, then it does not matter really which talent you have.

    About HA. Ye talking about defensive CDs.

    HA is better if the portion of the fight you are using the CD for is LONGER than 15-25 seconds (depending on your haste values, more haste, higher, 25 seconds = 50% haste).

    Or if there are damage heavy phases less often than every 2 minutes though more often than every 3 minutes.

    For any other fight SW is superior for survivability. And SW can still be superior even if these 2 above statements are true, basically depends on how the fight is designed. If you really have nowhere else to use your CDs then other CDs in combination with SW makes SW pull ahead. i.e. lets say I have enough haste for SW to cover 20 seconds of a damage heavy phase, however the phase lasts 30 seconds exactly. Then HA would be better right? Well, yes, if HA was the only CD you have.

    However lets say you do not need to use your cds anywhere else in the fight, if you then can use Dprot/Stoneform(dwarf yo)/Ardent Defender or maybe get an external CD like Pain Sup, than SW automatically pulls ahead as SW scales better together with other CDs than HA does.

    This is why I believe that SW is the standard cooldown and is useable on every single fight in this tier, and HA is a niche spell that has some uses on some fights however still less reliable than SW.

    I have not done Sha Heroic yet so, though what makes you prefer HA in P1? You have enough HoPo to cover every Thrash, so the effectiveness of both HA and SW should be really low. Neither of them would really do a lot of work, as all you would do is cover more regular auto attacks with SotR. I mean, I really think Sha P1 it doesn't matter which you choose.
    HA ofc got the benefit of beeing available every tanking phase, however as I said, I do not really think either HA or SW does alot of work in P1. If nothing is drastically different other than more damage from normal, I would think that the last phase would be the decider of SW vs HA. No idea how the damage is in P2 though so can't really say which I would prefer. Just find it strange basing the decision on P1.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I have not done Sha Heroic yet so, though what makes you prefer HA in P1? You have enough HoPo to cover every Thrash, so the effectiveness of both HA and SW should be really low. Neither of them would really do a lot of work, as all you would do is cover more regular auto attacks with SotR. I mean, I really think Sha P1 it doesn't matter which you choose.
    HA ofc got the benefit of beeing available every tanking phase, however as I said, I do not really think either HA or SW does alot of work in P1. If nothing is drastically different other than more damage from normal, I would think that the last phase would be the decider of SW vs HA. No idea how the damage is in P2 though so can't really say which I would prefer. Just find it strange basing the decision on P1.
    A lot of interesting points, but as far as HA vs. SW goes on Heroic Sha i just don't feel it makes any difference.
    Phase 1 isn't particularly tough by any means, and the way HA lines up and adds to your boss DPS at 2 points in the phase seems ideal. Avenging Wrath actually comes off cooldown right before the second time i get ported (which is almost right when he phases), but i have noticed i'm not getting the full uptime on the boss. So realistically, if i could get it to expire before i'm ported they're practically even with the only difference being what contributes more to your DPS during that window.

    Phase 2 is the tougher phase, but for a paladin you only ever need a ShotR and DP up for dread thrash and you literally can't die. With unbreakable spirit DP is up for each one adding some rhythm and consistency to it which is all i ever need to stay alive. I view either of the talents as DPS cooldowns at that point, and i'm not certain which adds more DPS. I would think HA. But i suppose that can be argued? You might actually even have proved otherwise in another thread, sorry in case i missed it.

    Thrash is literally all about timing your ShotR anyway, even when it's dread thrash. But i will definitely try SW out tonight and see how it feels and let you know.

    Edit: Oh man, forgot the fact that it extends Avenging Wraths duration to begin with. Will still try it out but i suspect a lot of it's duration will be wasted in P1.
    Last edited by Teks; 2013-02-18 at 06:04 PM.

  7. #27
    I believe that the dps difference is very very minor between them. Depends how many you get off per fight probably. If you are under expertise cap as I am, then AW wins dps hands down. Though for anyone at caps, the difference is just non existant. It will all depend on how much vengeance you have when you use the spells and such. I believe if you look on paper HA is like 100 dps or so ahead of SW, though in a real fight, that can change in either way depending on how long the duration is and when you actually use the cds. You don't always use HA or SW on cooldown exactly. Very possible that you use HA and SW the same amount of times in a fight, all depends how to fight looks.

    So you gotta think yourself how you use the different spells to figure out which is best for purely dps.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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