mastery stacking ww for rune of origination?

[Areohotah]

you at least clarify how Rune of Re-Origination would work? Wording on the trinket is not very clear.
Warning: technical mumbo jumbo follows.

At proc time, it checks how much crit, haste, and mastery you have (yes, this is a snapshot, and does NOT include the mastery raid buff). It finds which is the highest of those 3 (tie breaking rule: crit trumps haste trumps mastery), and gives you a buff of +[sum of lowest two stats] to your highest stat, and -[lowest stat A] and -[lowest stat B]. For example, if you have 6000 mastery, 3000 crit, 2000 haste, and the proc goes off, it gives you a buff that provides [+5000 mastery, -3000 crit, -2000 haste]. It does not continue adjusting that buff as stats change during its duration. Yes, this means that if you have a temporary buff to a stat that is not your highest (even with the temporary buff), and that temporary buff falls off during Re-Origination, you *could* end up with negative rating. In this obscure edge case, negative crit does reduce your crit chance, negative mastery does reduce whatever it normally does, and negative haste is ignored.

copied from a blue post on how the trinket works. seems like this is going to be interesting to play with and while my original thought was that it will suck for ww (doubling up on haste isnt going to work and i guess crit could kind of be beneficial if we dont energy starve) it could actually prove beneficial. now this is just plain thinking I havent done any numbers so dont jump down my throat if im wrong.

what if we put mastery as our highest stat to gain the buff doubling our mastery then using tigerseye brew and clicking the trinket proc off. what do you guys think?

[Dreyo]

Windwalkers are going to be one of the specs where this might, might be useful. Considering you get to press a button that says "I'm using my mastery now!" maxing on it could theoretically be a very good thing.

[Deleted]

No. you're effectively having to wait for the trinket to proc to use your tiger's eye brew. then its timing it with mechanics that might require burns. its a stupid trinket tbh. reducing other stats to increase another.

[Areohotah]

which is what I was thinking. Like im not saying to go all out on mastery by any means but if you can get your mastery just above your haste and crit it is going to double up your mastery making you tigerseye brew mastery buff double, this could even be considered in pvp because as I said before as soon as you hit tigerseye you could debuff yourself of the trinket and just have that bonus.

make it into a macro and for burst situation it could be useful. think we will have to wait for numbers though

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 01:20 PM ----------

frutality - uptime of tigerseye is much higher in 5.2 being able to stack to 20 stacks only using 10 at a time and getting stacks faster I dont think timing is going to be the problem

[Deleted]

i think the trinket is silly. there a going to be far superior trinkets available in 5.2 without having to use a trinket that you need to cancel the proc in order for it to be effective.

[Callimonk]

[/COLOR]frutality - uptime of tigerseye is much higher in 5.2 being able to stack to 20 stacks only using 10 at a time and getting stacks faster I dont think timing is going to be the problem

Yes and no. Without taking into account Combo Breaker procs, it will still take up to a minute for us to generate 20 stacks. Our T15 will change this somewhat, though - stacking will be quicker and smoother.

Yes, our uptime will be higher - that's just elementary, considering that was the desired effect from moving 1 stack to being 3 chi instead of 4 - but having 20 stacks will simply mean that we can save our mastery and wait to use it when the stars align, per se - for example, save some for a Haste phase, or when we have 2 dancing steels, or perhaps when we have multiple trinket procs.

Overall, I'm not entirely sold on that trinket yet. I think it will be fairly strong for us - especially given that negative haste can be ignored - but... well, I think it's something worth simming. A Mastery proc would certainly be very strong to use TeB on (of course, that's just elementary) but I guess I'm not the fan of possibly having negative crit.

[Areohotah]

Overall, I'm not entirely sold on that trinket yet. I think it will be fairly strong for us - especially given that negative haste can be ignored - but... well, I think it's something worth simming. A Mastery proc would certainly be very strong to use TeB on (of course, that's just elementary) but I guess I'm not the fan of possibly having negative crit.

but unless I am reading it wrong wouldnt you be able to pop tigerseye cancel the trinket and losing the crit wouldn't be a problem? because as soon as you pop tigerseye if mastery is your highest that buff is going to last on you and the rest of the stat from the trinket becomes useless in fact makes it a loss if you arent clicking it off because your going to have empty stats you arent using for that proc time

[Callimonk]

but unless I am reading it wrong wouldnt you be able to pop tigerseye cancel the trinket and losing the crit wouldn't be a problem? because as soon as you pop tigerseye if mastery is your highest that buff is going to last on you and the rest of the stat from the trinket becomes useless in fact makes it a loss if you arent clicking it off because your going to have empty stats you arent using for that proc time

That's true. I suppose if it were equipped, TeB would need to be put into a #cancelaura macro to remove it.

I'd kind of thought of it that way myself, but that would also mean that a proc could ruin it if you were trying to save stacks for a Haste phase. But with that amount of mastery, I suppose it would make up for itself over time.

[Areohotah]

yea the whole idea is that it would have to be used very quickly macrod and the trinket then becomes a increases %damage for 20 seconds or whatever. I dont play on the ptr because im still progression through heroics when I am not at work so I probably won't be able to test this myself till live, if someone else gets a chance we should look into this

[Rockets]

Does the new TeB buff not update dynamically if your mastery changes while it's up? I thought that was pretty much the default nowadays.

[Totaltotemic]

No. you're effectively having to wait for the trinket to proc to use your tiger's eye brew. then its timing it with mechanics that might require burns. its a stupid trinket tbh. reducing other stats to increase another.

And the fact that it'll tank our Energy regen and Crit for the duration of the proc. While it's an interesting idea, it simply can't compete with a proc that adds the same amount of stats without taking any away.

[Tehstool]

Garbage trinket. Needs some sort of multiplier or an actual stat gain not just a stat conversion to be useful imo.

[Areohotah]

ignore the last 2 posts they either don't read or don't understand what is being discussed. the point of this topic is figuring out why blizzard made this trinket and if there is a way to get the increase without the decrease for a better gain than the other trinkets not just commenting it is bad because even though it may look bad until there is some serious testing done with it you cannot prove that.

[Tehstool]

ignore the last 2 posts they either don't read or don't understand what is being discussed. the point of this topic is figuring out why blizzard made this trinket and if there is a way to get the increase without the decrease for a better gain than the other trinkets not just commenting it is bad because even though it may look bad until there is some serious testing done with it you cannot prove that.

I'm 100% sure I understand what is being discussed. The OP states:

you at least clarify how Rune of Re-Origination would work? Wording on the trinket is not very clear.
Warning: technical mumbo jumbo follows.

At proc time, it checks how much crit, haste, and mastery you have (yes, this is a snapshot, and does NOT include the mastery raid buff). It finds which is the highest of those 3 (tie breaking rule: crit trumps haste trumps mastery), and gives you a buff of +[sum of lowest two stats] to your highest stat, and -[lowest stat A] and -[lowest stat B]. For example, if you have 6000 mastery, 3000 crit, 2000 haste, and the proc goes off, it gives you a buff that provides [+5000 mastery, -3000 crit, -2000 haste]. It does not continue adjusting that buff as stats change during its duration. Yes, this means that if you have a temporary buff to a stat that is not your highest (even with the temporary buff), and that temporary buff falls off during Re-Origination, you *could* end up with negative rating. In this obscure edge case, negative crit does reduce your crit chance, negative mastery does reduce whatever it normally does, and negative haste is ignored.

copied from a blue post on how the trinket works. seems like this is going to be interesting to play with and while my original thought was that it will suck for ww (doubling up on haste isnt going to work and i guess crit could kind of be beneficial if we dont energy starve) it could actually prove beneficial. now this is just plain thinking I havent done any numbers so dont jump down my throat if im wrong.

what if we put mastery as our highest stat to gain the buff doubling our mastery then using tigerseye brew and clicking the trinket proc off. what do you guys think?

They aren't asking why blizzard created it, they are asking "what if we put mastery as our highest stat to gain the buff doubling our mastery then using tigerseye brew and clicking the trinket proc off. what do you guys think?" I'm simply saying no it wouldn't be good because of how bad the trinket is in its current design. First it would require you to reforge sub-optimally and then you'd essentially be wasting the proc after clicking it off. There is also no need for testing to be done. Your stats compliment your other stats. You may hit harder every tigerseye brew, but your overall dps will suffer from not critting and attacking as much as you could during the tigerseye brew gaps. It's a terrible trinket and you can see that just by looking at it.

[Areohotah]

First it would require you to reforge sub-optimally and then you'd essentially be wasting the proc after clicking it off. There is also no need for testing to be done. Your stats compliment your other stats. You may hit harder every tigerseye brew, but your overall dps will suffer from not critting and attacking as much as you could during the tigerseye brew gaps. It's a terrible trinket and you can see that just by looking at it.

Ok I was the one to create the post so I realize what I originally asked. What I don't understand is why you think its reforging poorly and critting and attacking less? reforge right now is up in the air with mastery or crit being debatable it isnt going to be hard to hit haste caps we need to so who says we cant get one over the other. and if we do manage to get mastery over I don't see how macroing to pop tigerseye and then remove the buff will cause a loss of crit/haste for anything longer than 1-2 gcd if used properly. as soon as you remove it your stats would normalize with TeB still up. It would not be wasting the proc because the proc of mastery goes towards TeB

[DirewolfX]

They aren't asking why blizzard created it, they are asking "what if we put mastery as our highest stat to gain the buff doubling our mastery then using tigerseye brew and clicking the trinket proc off. what do you guys think?" I'm simply saying no it wouldn't be good because of how bad the trinket is in its current design. First it would require you to reforge sub-optimally and then you'd essentially be wasting the proc after clicking it off. There is also no need for testing to be done. Your stats compliment your other stats. You may hit harder every tigerseye brew, but your overall dps will suffer from not critting and attacking as much as you could during the tigerseye brew gaps. It's a terrible trinket and you can see that just by looking at it.

This ^

It might be good for some classes like Fury Warrior or Fire Mage, where one stat is so much better than the others, except they don't use Agility. It might also be good if the transfer was at a more favorable ratio than 1:1.

If you want to do a simple test, take your character and run it through SimCraft to see what the stat weights are. Now adjust your stats so that your best stat is equal to the sum of your other two stats and the other two stats are 0. The other two stats will shoot up significantly in value.

If for some reason tigerseye brew does not adjust dynamically, it might be possible, but you'd need to run the numbers to see if the increased damage during TB outweighs the loss of DPS at other times and the value added by a different trinket.

[Dreyo]

The point behind clicking it off is that you aren't wasting the proc. You're getting all the benefit of the proc, and your new Mastery count when you hit the Tigereye Brew button.

The idea is if the Tigereye buff doesn't dynamically update and is instead based on a snapshot of your mastery when you hit the button, it might be effective. You'd lose your haste and crit for maybe half a second before your /cancelaura on the re-origination buff, and now you have a new souped-up Tigereye buff with your full normal stat layout.

If, on the other hand, Tigereye does dynamically update, then the trinket will be just as worthless for WW as it is for everyone else.

The suggestion is not to use the trinket and enjoy the full proc, it's to cheese the proc based on the unique nature of the WW mastery.

[Areohotah]

The point behind clicking it off is that you aren't wasting the proc. You're getting all the benefit of the proc, and your new Mastery count when you hit the Tigereye Brew button.

The idea is if the Tigereye buff doesn't dynamically update and is instead based on a snapshot of your mastery when you hit the button, it might be effective. You'd lose your haste and crit for maybe half a second before your /cancelaura on the re-origination buff, and now you have a new souped-up Tigereye buff with your full normal stat layout.

If, on the other hand, Tigereye does dynamically update, then the trinket will be just as worthless for WW as it is for everyone else.

The suggestion is not to use the trinket and enjoy the full proc, it's to cheese the proc based on the unique nature of the WW mastery.

explained clearly what this post is about. there we go.

[Deleted]

think blizz would realise this and it wouldnt go live like this. plus what if the trinket procced from downtime on a boss. or as you're building TeB stacks before a pull, procced on the last one and ran off before the pull. like Tehstool said, you're going to have to reforge sub-optimal just for the sake of 1 trinket. cant see it being BiS for any agility using class if it deducts other stats for its duration.

[Areohotah]

Well I just tested on the PTR that, at least based on the tooltip, the Tigereye Brew buff does NOT update it's proc value due to different Mastery buffs. What I did was I went and got the Dominators Deadeye Badge since it was an easy trinket to get that procs (or in this case On Use) Mastery. I then stacked to 20 on the PTR, activated the badge and took a screenshot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24efrulb12...413_174943.jpg

I then canceled the Mastery buff and took a second screenshot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/110exa1zg4...413_174946.jpg

As you can see both screenshots shows the same value on the Tigerseye Brew buff.

Hinalover posted in the other topic 5.2 ww trinkets/meta consideration about the dynamic update for tigerseye and it in fact does not change.