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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by dementor View Post
    The point I was making, which you just repeated, is that numbers don't matter just the general trends. If you look at the trends on which playstyles were more favorable for my character copy toon, then you compare to what play styles worked for my premade character, they were rather similar. And I bet they would be for anyones character copy toon vs premade.

    zomgDPS was the only person derailing the thread by flinging unnecessary insults, which I am not sure why he was not infracted. Ill take my knowledge and insight of the mage class to a different thread as well.
    qft

    This thread is pointless.
    When you try to get people to use the same/gear/stats they are like " hey it's all just to see which strategy is best we dont want to look at gear!"
    when you post your gear/stats and try to show the trend between different strategies they are like " hey you dont have braincells we want to test with the same gear here!"

    What is it now?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by dementor View Post
    The point I was making, which you just repeated, is that numbers don't matter just the general trends
    I guess they don't teach kids reading comprehension in their BS degrees nowadays...

    That is not what he is saying, nor is it what I am saying. In fact, no one in this thread is saying the numbers don't matter at all.

    If you get your head out of your pitiful academic experience for one second and actually read what people are writing, you will realize that life isn't an all or nothing.

    Its not that numbers will either not matter at all or that they will only matter if you have them accurate to 10 decimal places.

    The point Shangy is making, is that clamping the GEAR variable is more important than clamping the RACE variable. Your race will effect your overall DPS my a minuscule amount compared to your GEAR. When he says "we are not testing the numbers" he means exactly what I just said above, that the focus of the test is not to get a completely accurate DPS representation of a specs output. (and neither is it to get the maximum DPS throughput of a spec, which is what Moco and PPB want to do).

    We use 'ballpark DPS figures' to gauge relative rotation performance, i.e. casting strategy.

    We have ALREADY shown that the method you, Dementor, use to do this is flawed. You sat there and asserted that mastery invocation is suboptimal to haste invocation. I, as well as many others, have not only shown that it isn't, but have actually been out there testing it in a live environment in the time you spent sitting here and b!tching and moaning.

    But I think deep down inside you understand all this and are in fact just trolling. No one can claim to have a BS degree and be so completely retarded not to see what we are doing here and not realize (even after being explicitly told) that we are NOT doing 'accurate to 9 decimal places' dps test. Yet you still sit here and scream and shout about points that no one is making.

    The thing that has me convinced that you are trolling now, is your prolific use of the strawmans argument. Just the fact that you have to make up what people are saying in order to counter a point that was never made, shows you are on your last straws in this thread. You were on your way of redeeming yourself by doing some tests, but you are back on your way out.


    You know where the door is. Please, show yourself out. The basic point is, the rest of us understand your problem, we do not agree with you, and we are going to continue. So unless you really only want to stay in this thread to sit and scream like a child (which, to be fair, is really all you are doing), I HIGHLY suggest you leave. No one here has the time and patience to walk you through the logic again.


    You are not being productive, you need a vacation from here.

  3. #63
    @zomgdps have you gotten a viable test run with Mastery Invo? I was leery at first but after messing with it for a few hours it actually seemed decent. I pushed my mana to 60% before evocating and it seemed to be a good regen spot to take advantage of your mastery on the lower end but not go so far as lose a chunk of dps. Let me know why you think.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    @zomgdps have you gotten a viable test run with Mastery Invo?
    I have.


    Battle Report
    I have pretty much spent the entire day (literally) raid testing my Mastery Invo Arcane mage (and after a short break, I'm going right back in - though this time with either RoP Arcane or IW Frost - we'll see)
    The results are notbad.jpg
    Not bad at all in fact.

    I was lucky enough to test with a plethora of other mages. We had Haste Invoc Arcanists, Haste IW frosties, Firemages, Mastery RoP Arcanists. You name it, we had it.


    My Mastery Invo worked out very well in the last 3 fights of the new raid tier (Quon, Twins and King), in fact, none of the other Arcane mages could top me. Our RoP mage was getting trampled in the Quon fight (esp phase 1&2). Overall, Frost was very close to my Arcane, but would lose out during lust/AT (Arcane just explodes under CDs - but this isn't new). In fact, the only mage who would handily trounce me was Nabal (a guildy firemage), but he is a complete beast as it is anyway.
    Shazz (our Arcane haste Invoc) was almsot neck and neck with me throughout, though she lost out in the end of most fights. (though I think that was since I knew the fights better than her).

    The only fights where I would lose out were the ones where I was doing the raidleader stuff more (e.g. handling the statues for the Twins fight). So I guess those don't count.

    On trash though, Frost was absolutely decimating things. Even under CDs I couldn't pump out what our frostmages were doing on AoE trash.

    My boss strat was similar to the one I described in the first post. I would use ABr to break stacks till I got to around ~20ish seconds left on the Invoc buff. Then I would go into the traditional "burn and cycle AMs". The difference is noticeable enough. Also, I would save a LOT of time not having to invocate all the time. Shazz (arcane-haste-invoc) was using the traditional "burn ABs and splice AMs in the mix, but maintain full 4 stack and never use ABrs" and she was just straight up loosing out at times.

    I'm conceptualizing Mastery invoc Arcane almost as a more versatile subset of the way IW Arcane plays, just with shorter timeframes. With IW you will 'conserve' till you need to burn down every 2 mins to maximize Evocation usage. Mastery invoc is similar, but the time horizon is 1 min instead (Invoc buff). It is much more versatile since it lets you mess up and recover. It also allows you to deal with boss transitions easier and to ensure you are at the right mana point for the next phase.


    On a completely tangential point. Arcane has been nerfed pretty hard on PTR. Other classes and specs in general were completey destroying all of us Arcane mages.
    Affliction locks need a very very serious nerf and I will be shocked if they don't get it. They are heads and shoulders above many other classes right now. The boomkin buffs are also up on the PTR and it shows. I think they were overbuffed.

    So while mages (maybe except fire) are overall in a bad spot compared to other classes right now, I think Arcane is not yet 'dead' as some claim it to be. I have done many LFRs too and am consistently the highest mage in the group easily (even against other arcane mages, frost mages and fire mages), and can push to top 5 depending on how many locks queued up.




    I will try to convince my GM to release our logs (he is VERY anal about that kind of stuff) just so you guys can take a look, but no promises. We have never released our logs to the public, and I don't have enough pull with him to get him to release our logs just coz I said so.


    On a tangential point, Blazing speed seems to be working well. It really shines for things like phase 2 of Quon where you have to move after the aoe pull. Esp if you use the strat that we use and tank the boss back up by where he spawns. Also on Phase 1 when you need to stack and move from safe spot to safe spot. I kinda like it and haven't really missed PoM or Flows yet. We'll see though.


    More later.



    Edit: Almost forgot

    Build: Arcane | RoP | Mastery build
    Test: 2 "The Stormwind Minute"
    Result: ~80k+
    Strategy: Nothing special. ABx4 AMs and ABrs to break. Kept weaving Fireblasts to 'fish' for procs and lining up Frost bombs for similar effect too.

    I want more gameplay with RoP. I will try to find it.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2013-02-17 at 01:23 AM.

  5. #65
    Hmm... I did a bit of PTR LFR testing today, thus was scaled to 480 ilvl. I was still topping the raid as mastery stacked invo arcane build. Maybe they were all bad players I dunno, but I was pulling about 85K sustained dps through the fights and this was about 5k above the next warlock.

    The rotation is incredibly boring, but I'm not seeing a huge damage nerf compared to other classes, but as I say I might have just been unlucky and been paired with a lot of bad players.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Arcane has been nerfed pretty hard on PTR. Other classes and specs in general were completey destroying all of us Arcane mages.
    Affliction locks need a very very serious nerf and I will be shocked if they don't get it. They are heads and shoulders above many other classes right now. The boomkin buffs are also up on the PTR and it shows. I think they were overbuffed.
    It is extremely shocking to me as well that affliction got a slap-on-the-wrist 5% nerf to the pet sack talent and nothing more in the way of damage reduction. I hate to be the jealous type, but they seriously need to address Kil'jaeden's Cunning with Burning Rush. Being the top overall dps should require some outside variables (like needed to stay still). You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too in my book.

    Which reminds me...

    My worst fear right now is that arcane stays right at par with other dps on standstill fights with the current design philosophy we see in the PTR. The reason it's concerning is because on the move ptr arcane feels like a fish out of water. I agree that ranged dps should be reduced while on the move but I really don't think Ice flows, Arcane Barrage, Fireblast (keep in mind it's 30 yard range), Ice Lance, and Arcane Explosion (10-15 yards) are going to cut it on movement phases. Scorch might be cheesy on live, but at least it's something consistent to do on the move. Arcane needs something in it's toolkit for movement other than a 45second cooldown that's good for all of less than 4 seconds.

    We really need something like scorch but the current design (swimming pool made of duct tape) is so bad that if they give us something like scorch we will be able to break the spec again.

    Edit: I know that you can re-apply your mage bomb, cast mirror images, refresh your Ice Barrier and do all that other stuff on the move too, but it's not optimal usage for the most part and that's why i didn't mention it at first.
    Last edited by Stache; 2013-02-17 at 04:27 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    It is extremely shocking to me as well that affliction got a slap-on-the-wrist 5% nerf to the pet sack talent and nothing more in the way of damage reduction. I hate to be the jealous type, but they seriously need to address Kil'jaeden's Cunning with Burning Rush.
    I don't think its really a question of jealousy at this point, its a pretty simple matter of game balance. Affliction locks need a nerf. Its really obvious (the way it was for Arcane a patch ago). A few other specs too, but affliction locks are pretty big offenders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    My worst fear right now is that arcane stays right at par with other dps on standstill fights with the current design philosophy we see in the PTR.
    Arcane's movement issues were something our guild mages were discussing in depth just last night after heavy raid testing. Now obviously, everyone knows Arcane sucks the most when movement is concerned, but we wanted to be able to articulate exactly what the issue is (above and beyond just "it sucks" or "its because of AM channel").

    For light, intermittent movement (it doesn't even have to be regular, it just has to line up with blink/BS cds), I think Arcane is will be fine. Its when anything other than that is concerned that things get absolutely painful for Arcane.

    The new Qon fight is a good example of this. In phase 1 (and even 2 if you are smart), you can pretty much RoP Arcane blast away for the win, but as soon as phase 3 comes along and you have to constantly re-position yourself (due to boss shields), you start seeing how absolutely hard Arcane fails with even medium movement.

    That being said, fire mages just do not have this issue. Nabal, our resident firemage, would be perfectly happy even during moments of heavy movement. Couple this with the fact that if things stay the way they are (and since the next set of Arcane PTR changes are actually, according to the numerical theorycraft, turning out to be more of a nerf) I'm pretty sure Fire will be the defacto spec for 5.2.


    Unfortunately, it seems we have just run out of time to get Arcane fixed. Its current weak state (and weaker still with the next set of changes) I just do not see how it can remain competitive. Remember, we have about a week left now till live.


    Frost is the wild card here. It will dominate (even more than it currently does) in challenge modes and all forms of PvP (the frostbolt change is absurd right now for PvP - I feel like I'm going around globaling people). For add fights, I can see Frost being a worthwhile offspec to keep, but I just do not see it competing with Fire right now.


    We are going to be doing ~half a day of testing today, but I'm almost ready to call 5.2 it in favor of Fire at this point. Lets see if anything changes.

  8. #68
    Warchief Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    That being said, fire mages just do not have this issue. Nabal, our resident firemage, would be perfectly happy even during moments of heavy movement. Couple this with the fact that if things stay the way they are (and since the next set of Arcane PTR changes are actually, according to the numerical theorycraft, turning out to be more of a nerf) I'm pretty sure Fire will be the defacto spec for 5.2.

    Unfortunately, it seems we have just run out of time to get Arcane fixed. Its current weak state (and weaker still with the next set of changes) I just do not see how it can remain competitive. Remember, we have about a week left now till live.

    We are going to be doing ~half a day of testing today, but I'm almost ready to call 5.2 it in favor of Fire at this point. Lets see if anything changes.
    So, basically we are back to where we were at the start of 5.0 again, where Arcane was completely unviable and Fire overpowered, with no chance to get Arcane buffed back to the level it currently is on live before 5.3?

    Well that's quite ridiculous then. I'll still refuse to switch to Fire though, no matter what.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    So, basically we are back to where we were at the start of 5.0 again, where Arcane was completely unviable and Fire overpowered, with no chance to get Arcane buffed back to the level it currently is on live before 5.3?

    Well that's quite ridiculous then. I'll still refuse to switch to Fire though, no matter what.
    Well fire aint op, yet.. It really a bit lower than what it is atm, but we got to remember fire atm is actually a good spec, arcane is just redic. And you dont have to do fire, frost is just as good on single target, just a bit weaker as a raid spec..

  10. #70
    Warchief Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Well fire aint op, yet.. It really a bit lower than what it is atm, but we got to remember fire atm is actually a good spec, arcane is just redic. And you dont have to do fire, frost is just as good on single target, just a bit weaker as a raid spec..
    Arcane performance on live is justified where it is (without using scorch of course), if you consider how low live Arcane drops in movement fights. If Arcane weren't any higher than Fire/Frost on stationary and single target fights then there would be absolutely no point in ever choosing Arcane, performance-wise. It's the only thing it's good at, even right now on live.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Arcane performance on live is justified where it is (without using scorch of course), if you consider how low live Arcane drops in movement fights. If Arcane weren't any higher than Fire/Frost on stationary and single target fights then there would be absolutely no point in ever choosing Arcane, performance-wise. It's the only thing it's good at, even right now on live.
    And like I have said/argued/begged/cried many times before, the solution is not to simply bump arcane dps to heaven. Arcane would need a complete rework(again), and while going down from 6 stacks to 4 stack will certainly help, the spec is still missing the essentials that make specs good in raids.. And yes if arcane, frost and fire are all at level on single target, fire comes out as a clear winner for raiding. The answer though aint to keep fire lower, but to make arcane and frost work better in certain situations. And that is sadly not going to happen until 6.0, and might not even happen then unless we get our butts moving and actually make an effort as a community to make blizzard notice we are not happy with the specs we are given atm. And yes its kinda 1 sided to say "we are not" as there are people that like the current system..

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Arcane performance on live is justified where it is (without using scorch of course), if you consider how low live Arcane drops in movement fights. If Arcane weren't any higher than Fire/Frost on stationary and single target fights then there would be absolutely no point in ever choosing Arcane, performance-wise. It's the only thing it's good at, even right now on live.
    ?? Arcane drops in movement fights? lol There isn't one fight on live with movement enough to hurt arcane that you shouldn't top meters.

  13. #73
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolKidKaos View Post
    ?? Arcane drops in movement fights? lol There isn't one fight on live with movement enough to hurt arcane that you shouldn't top meters.
    Nice try. Well, not really. Get your facts straight, or get out.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Nice try. Well, not really. Get your facts straight, or get out.
    Name one fight, and I will show you someone that knows how to play on it. Also, don't let the door hit ya where Raptor Jesus split ya <3

  15. #75
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    So by your logic, Raidbots should show Arcane as the top dps on every fight as "There isn't one fight on live with movement enough to hurt arcane that you shouldn't top meters." My point stands, and you adding a mage sig at the bottom isn't going to validate your non-existent point.

  16. #76
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Take it easy boys and girls, we're not here to argue in this way. Let me get you back on the right track:

    Methusula: I don't agree with you KoolKidKaos, please give me some arguments for your standpoint.

    KoolKidKaos: I still believe I'm right, please give me an example of any raid encounter and there will be a mage who knows how to avoid movement dps loss on it.

    Methusula: According to your original statement, Arcane should be highest on every fight on Raidbots, but since it's not, I don't think that your argument is accurate.

    ____

    I might have made it sound too formal but for the sake of the discussion let's pretend that it went that way and nobody has to get hurt in the process.

  17. #77
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Take it easy boys and girls, we're not here to argue in this way. Let me get you back on the right track:

    Methusula: I don't agree with you KoolKidKaos, please give me some arguments for your standpoint.

    KoolKidKaos: I still believe I'm right, please give me an example of any raid encounter and there will be a mage who knows how to avoid movement dps loss on it.

    Methusula: According to your original statement, Arcane should be highest on every fight on Raidbots, but since it's not, I don't think that your argument is accurate.

    ____

    I might have made it sound too formal but for the sake of the discussion let's pretend that it went that way and nobody has to get hurt in the process.
    Well at least from my end, you seem to have hit the nail on the head :P

  18. #78
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Oh I wasn't arguing anyone's side, I just rephrased the last three posts into versions which aren't borderline infractable

  19. #79
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Oh I wasn't arguing anyone's side, I just rephrased the last three posts into versions which aren't borderline infractable
    I know. I was just letting you know you didn't lose anything in the translation. If you think that's borderline infractable, I'd hate to see how much extra work you are giving yourself.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    So by your logic, Raidbots should show Arcane as the top dps on every fight as "There isn't one fight on live with movement enough to hurt arcane that you shouldn't top meters." My point stands, and you adding a mage sig at the bottom isn't going to validate your non-existent point.
    Never added it, it's been there for months. Raidbots show a collective of players, most that don't play mage well and how they did on certain fights in the past month. They may not even be that geared. Half the post on this forum almost sound like they're made up on the spot. There are less than 5 fights this tier that stacks can't be kept up the entire fight Stoneguard tile duty, Heroic Will, Vizier Zor'lok Last Phase Heroic, Heroic Sha, Heroic Tsulong all situational. No arcane mage on live, should ever, ever have a problem with movement fights. Like stated above there isn't enough movement "required" to hurt your dps, and hinder you to the point you can't out-perform your peers. That's all I was stating, in more productive news, testing fire and arcane tonight

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