Reqfu's MoP Windwalker BiS list & Theorycraft

[Braithe]

Hey guys. Posting virgin here and I have a lot of questions. So please be gentle
Been playing since BC- but I fell in love with WW Monk in MoP PTR and never went back. I'm determined to stick it out and agree- we're not bad, just poorly understood and therefore not utilized well (if at all) in raids. I lean on you guys heavily because SimCraft really confuses me and I struggle to interpret the results of all the graphs and spreadsheets. I'm just trying to get a succinct plan for 5.4

Character: Braithe
Server: US Sargeras
(being my first post- i cant include my armory or WoL link yet. GG)

Currently built for RoRo (which I cant wait to stop doing). My priority is standard and I know why I'm doing what I'm doing (RSK on CD, BoK as much as possible between RSK cool downs, chi wave as filler, TeB at 10+ stacks with RoRo whenever possible, FoF rarely- IF the stars align on RSK and energy and i don't have to move etc., Big Cat with and on CD, Fort Brew and Karma to bounce damage and live, TP and RSK buff/debuff up 100% of the time and jab bla bla).

BUT 5.3 was rough and left me nothing to show for myself in terms of DPS parses. I'm an ok player but my DPS has been embarrassing! If I'm ever going to have a shot in a progression guild on my monk, I need to get those numbers up where I know they CAN be. I really need and would LOVE your help.

Since I'm forced to move A LOT (raid strat / environment is not great), I don't use FoF very often and gravitate towards the High Haste build. But I really like the idea of more TeB with the mastery build. In 5.4 PTR I noted what seemed like a modest distinction between the 2, but not enough to really inform a decision. In your opinions- What should I be shooting for in terms of stat weights / haste caps? What talent plays best with a high haste versus mastery build? What trinket can I grab QUICK to replace RoRo if I go haste>mast come 5.4? I see ppl suggesting that we restore / go buy the Bloodlust Talisman as a hold over. Is that really true cuz it's hard to imagine?

Any and all suggestions or advice on how to use simcraft and your theory craft data to boost my performance is so so so welcomed you have no idea. I'm just stuck staring at my logs and meters thinking "I KNOW I'm better than this!"

Thanks a million for being the Yodas of the Monk Community.

[Greencap]

The more you have to move, the less valuable haste becomes. After all, while moving you are not attacking, while you are not attacking you are not spending energy. If you really have to move as much as you claim to, I would recommend lower haste.

I see ppl suggesting that we restore / go buy the Bloodlust Talisman as a hold over. Is that really true cuz it's hard to imagine?

No, if you don't have HC Juju I would get http://www.wowhead.com/item=94511. It is a really good trinket if it doesnt put you over the hit cap.

As for general advice to improve your DPS: To me it sounds like you should focus more on your rotation and less on your gearing. Outside of keeping RSK & TP up and mastering the use of TEB with your RoRo procs (this is big though) it doesn't really make a huge difference in what order you press your buttons in 5.3. So if your DPS feels really low in 5.3 and you manage to keep up RSK & TP, you probably are not using your RoRo procs correctly.

[Braithe]

Thank you for the info Greencap. My RoRo/ TEB timing isn't perfect but it's not that bad. The spikes are nice, but excessive raid movement means I cant always take advantage of them. Hence having the most powerful component of my DPS output tied to RNG in this environment looks like low overall performance. So I was hoping to dump RoRo and start cranking out more consistently acceptable numbers. But it sounds like a high haste build and a lesser trinket would be even worse? From what I gather based on Salty's charts and posts, high haste is better with Chi Brew before T16 4 pc (Im SO sorry if i have that wrong- Please correct me). In any case, I was hoping to take advantage of that and get guidance on how best to do it.

If High Haste is better with Chi Brew, is Ascension better for High Mastery?

Thanks again. Sorry to be a pain

[Greencap]

Honestly, at this moment we don't know yet. It looks like haste is actually still very good, even with 4pc T16 and Ascension. That said, Blizzard is hinting at us that we are doing it wrong and we value haste too much, so we are desperately trying to figure out what they are doing and how we can achieve the best DPS with low haste, but so far we don't have a lot of success and outside of practical reasons (i.e. movement, etc) haste still seems to be our strongest stat and especially if you use Chi Brew, the haste cap will be really high.

Luckily in 5.4 we wont be so reliant on a trinket proc, so our rotation will be a lot more forgiving. If you want to prepare for 5.4 I recommend you to download it and start hitting a target dummy to practice your rotation. If you don't have it already make sure you set up WeakAuras (or something similar) so you can track your RSK debuff, TP buff and trinket procs. Just follow and perfect the rotation you mentioned above and use TEB whenever a trinket procs (dont bother waiting for 10).

[Braithe]

...use TEB whenever a trinket procs (dont bother waiting for 10).

Don't bother waiting for 10 stacks! THANK YOU! That is the first time anyone has told me that definitively. Changes a lot for me and makes me feel dumb for not getting the nerve to ask someone earlier. DAMN.

I've been running different builds and stat weights in PTR- but seeing as im only comparing what I see in logs and meters and not crunching data...I don't fully trust my own interpretation of what im seeing. Im a Weak Auras junkie! So all cool downs and trinket procs and ICD's are covered. Honestly- not waiting for 10 Stacks of TEB is gonna make a massive difference. I've been itching to do that intuitively, and already do it in a jam if I have over 5 rather than loose the proc. But I never made a practice of it. Thank you so much!

[Greencap]

If you miss out on RoRo procs today, because you wait for 10 stacks, you are taking a -massive- DPS loss (I dare say it might even be better not to use RoRo at all then depending on how often you miss it). I expect your DPS will go up a lot, simply by using TEB whenever RoRo procs. One thing to keep in mind though is that with RoRo it is best to wait as long as possible (so try to use TEB 1 to 2 seconds before the RoRo proc expires).

In 5.4 you simply want to hit TEB as soon as anything procs.

[Senusret]

Using Reqfu's list, but using Hellscream's Cleavers as weapons and TEB instead of AoC, I managed to create a profile that puts us in a reasonable position compared to the other profiles which have already been created (though I think the profiles from the other classes are far from perfect still):


I don't think I managed to get the most out of it yet, but I'm also not sure how good simcraft is simulating windwalkers at the moment. It still seems to really like haste & ascension. In this profile I'm running 12k Haste + Ascension (I didn't manage to make it sim higher using Chi Brew). No matter what I do, AoC is always a huge DPS loss when simming with it.

The profile I used:

New poster so I could not quote any links or code sorry for those that have to look back at Greencap's original post to look.

Question about the Simc string above I see where it gains the 2 Tigereye brew stacks, but where does it account for the 2 chi gain also? Sorry while I use Simc often I don't often modify profiles as I leave that to the more experienced Theory craters.

[Braithe]

Green- you're savin' my life here! Thank you. Apart from being totally embarrassed at having followed bad advice all this time...I'm actually a tad excited to see what happens to my numbers. Can not thank you enough. Ill keep you posted.

EDIT: Live Realm Normal Mode ToT last night showed a DPS increase of roughly 15K. Can't thank you enough Green.

[Deleted]

If you look at the main page you will see



You can see that the gear without any reforges is pretty close to the Hit and Expertise caps, The Cloak enchant I might change back to Critical Strike it will depend completely on how soon an accurate reforging tool can see the gear.

You can prove me wrong but it looks like as if you used Reality Ripper Ring in the picture but your first posts still mentions Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy.

One maybe needs to be corrected. I guess you wanted to use Reality Ripper Ring to maximize crit but forgot to change it in the list.

[Requital]

You can prove me wrong but it looks like as if you used Reality Ripper Ring in the picture but your first posts still mentions Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy.

One maybe needs to be corrected. I guess you wanted to use Reality Ripper Ring to maximize crit but forgot to change it in the list.

Good catch missed that update on the 1st page thanks! I'm still not 100% satisfied with the list but I'm satisfied with the offset helm, I really don't think it's going to make or break the set using legs over helm either.

[ruga]

Yo Requital, thanks a lot for the BiS list.
I'm really far from a theory crafter myself and thus I have to follow the lead of others in such regards.

My question: Could/would you generate a BiS list going from 5.3 to 5.4? I'm all torn up about wether to stick to my T15 bonuses or just swap them in favour of offset Thunderforged gear.

[Golforth]

Yo Requital, thanks a lot for the BiS list.
I'm really far from a theory crafter myself and thus I have to follow the lead of others in such regards.

My question: Could/would you generate a BiS list going from 5.3 to 5.4? I'm all torn up about wether to stick to my T15 bonuses or just swap them in favour of offset Thunderforged gear.

Use your offset thunderforged equipment, T15 Boni are just bad with 5.4.

[Greencap]

For what it's worth, ran another T16HC sim with fixed Xuen (assuming I fixed him correctly ). Looks like they made some big changes to ferals, not sure if it is bugged now, or if it was bugged before:

[Professor Hurt]

What was your stat focus in T16? Mastery?

[Greencap]

Haste up to about 12k, then crit, as little as possible in mastery.

[Vishiz]

This is what I mean with that stupid graph. 12k haste? that's ridiculous, why would you ever want that much? Are you just trying to see how high you can get the sim to go regardless of if it will ever even reflect actual results? Most monks will end up with half that haste when the games live. Why don't you try simming realistic values and posting those results.

This is what we call bad information. STAHP, there is NO reason for it.

[Greencap]

This is what I mean with that stupid graph. 12k haste? that's ridiculous, why would you ever want that much? Are you just trying to see how high you can get the sim to go regardless of if it will ever even reflect actual results? Most monks will end up with half that haste when the games live. Why don't you try simming realistic values and posting those results.

This is what we call bad information. STAHP, there is NO reason for it.

If you look at some of the testing that has been done on the PTR you can actually see that people have some good results with high haste... Simcraft would have me go higher than 12k, so I already chose to stay a bit lower. With 12k haste and Chi Brew you are still quite far from our haste (soft)cap.

As always, lag and raid mechanics are really hard to model well, so yes, this profile -is- created to get the best results on a totally unrealistic scenario. This is what it is now and this is what it always will be. If people misinterpret that, then so be it. Keep in mind though that all other classes face the same challenge and are also optimizing their Simc profile for these conditions.

[Ezyah]

I like the fact that it s sunday and NOONE seems to agree on how we should reforge

[Professor Hurt]

I like the fact that it s sunday and NOONE seems to agree on how we should reforge

I don't think that's true; people are just confusing results in T15 with results in T16. There are only two suggestions in T15 gear as far as I know, and it's up to personal preference.

See: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...paring-for-5-4

[Callypso]

I don't think that's true; people are just confusing results in T15 with results in T16. There are only two suggestions in T15 gear as far as I know, and it's up to personal preference.[/URL]

"Personal preference" is just a nice way of saying "No one has a clue how to prove the other guy is wrong".

In the thread you linked are several suggestions for low haste builds with Ascension, but also for high haste builds with Chi Brew. I'm inclined to agree with Eznor: We still don't have a definite answer to what is 'best' sofar. Simcraft is completely useless for SoO imo, as there is barely a boss in there that relies mostly singletarget dps and the non-patchwork modes are murky at best.

Personally i'm going to take the following approach, in this order:

1. Chi Brew over Ascension. (Chi Brew gave me a lot better results than Ascension in all my tests)
2. Stack haste until a level that feels 'comfortable' on energy on most fights, both cleave and singletarget. Probably around 8-10k.
3. Stack mastery until TEB generation feels solid enough (might be very fast judging from testing sofar)
4. Get more crit.