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  1. #41
    The same argument was used for T14, and yet good WW's always found a good timing for FoF use. Yes, it's clunky, but it's manageable.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krethos View Post
    Yay Reqfu!

    I also changed from Ret to WW within the first month of MoP. It pleases me extremely that you have taken up the Mantle of WW theory Req as I have followed your Ret advice for years and look forward to being able to count on someone with a deep understanding of game mechanics to point us in the right direction for WW monks.

    Just be careful not to take the Anaxie road. While Anaxie is an amazing theorycrafter, it is frustrating when the go to guy gets Banned and you lose 2 weeks of being able to get some top-notch information.

    Good luck with 5.2 and I look forward to following your rise in the new Monk community!
    Hahah I was on the Anaxie road before he was on that road so I already know how it all ends up! But thanks!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 10:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eznor View Post
    On EJ they are giving a different stat priority than yours being Haste > Mastery > Haste over soft cap > Crit.

    They seem pretty confident about the haste soft cap (19,20%). I assume it s to remove FoF from the rotation.

    What do you think about this ?
    It's going to depend on the fights quite a bit yes, The more haste the better you are for not needing FoF but at the same time there will be fights where the haste cap will have a constant flow of energy that you won't need so that way you are wasting the additional haste. We'll have to see as we progress into T15 content and see where the haste sits between fights.

    I never use had over 4k haste in T14 and I doubt i'll be pushing high haste in T15 only enough to keep from energy capping.
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  3. #43
    You've probably played ptr or know about this, but with the change to mastery our starting damage per stack of tigers eye brew will be at 1% per stack. From my understanding current WW is reforgeing out of mastery so my question is will you immediately reforge into as much mastery as possible or will you just wait until gear upgrades? Will your current mastery be enough to overcome that 1% damage per stack? Follow up question, since our "burst" is somewhat unique in the sense that its more controllable on how consistent we want it t be, will it be viable outside of phases where damage is increased or hero is poped to use Tigers eye brew at lower stacks to keep dps stable rather then bursting every so often when stacks reach 10?

    I apologize if my questions seem a tad awkward. Played Mw over recent patches and setting up a WW offspec.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    You've probably played ptr or know about this, but with the change to mastery our starting damage per stack of tigers eye brew will be at 1% per stack. From my understanding current WW is reforgeing out of mastery so my question is will you immediately reforge into as much mastery as possible or will you just wait until gear upgrades? Will your current mastery be enough to overcome that 1% damage per stack? Follow up question, since our "burst" is somewhat unique in the sense that its more controllable on how consistent we want it t be, will it be viable outside of phases where damage is increased or hero is poped to use Tigers eye brew at lower stacks to keep dps stable rather then bursting every so often when stacks reach 10?

    I apologize if my questions seem a tad awkward. Played Mw over recent patches and setting up a WW offspec.
    You will want to reforge into heavy Mastery on 5.2 patch and away from Crit, Haste on the other hand it's going to take a little bit to figure out. Most speculation is around 5-6k but that also might be based on 5.2 gear more so then current gear. I would suggest doing some test dummy practice while it's not the perfect method on 5.2 it will be a solid method to figure out how much haste you need to have a good fluid rotation.

    In theory no you won't want to pop it with a lower stack. However that will depend on the situation and that will be a boss by boss basis not really a perfect answer for it. Best practice will be using a 10 stack.
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  5. #45
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eznor View Post
    On EJ they are giving a different stat priority than yours being Haste > Mastery > Haste over soft cap > Crit.

    They seem pretty confident about the haste soft cap (19,20%). I assume it s to remove FoF from the rotation.

    What do you think about this ?
    I haven't updated the second draft in some time - right now I just have notes. I'll be adding a note about whether mastery > crit - it seems that there's still some data to gather on that end, but it appears to me that they'll both be very strong stats - math just suggests that crit scales better until 9K (but after PTR testing, I'm not sure that I'd even want that much haste - probably no more than 5-6K). I intend to update the draft this weekend - thus why I pulled the link from the 5.1 guide for now.

    In addition, Mastery's weight will be different depending on your TeB uptime, which will be affected by a number of factors - including but not limited to whether or not you have your 4set, the type of fight (that is, how you use your TeB, as that can vary from fight to fight), and trinket choice (note that I wrote the stat prio before Rune trinket was announced). Of course - the stat weights right now are pretty speculative, but I believe that a haste/crit build will be fine at patch launch (given that the MAJOR change to our TeB uptime will come with our T15 4set, in addition to higher item level).

    FoF scales with haste; having that much haste will not remove it from the rotation. However, with higher energy regen, I can foresee energy regen to be a moot point as far as FoF useage (as most people tend to use it rather than AA for a time). I'm not sure where this belief that it'll fall out of our rotation came from, given that it will give us a full stack of TeB upon useage and its channel duration will be shortened. Other than the rampup math I did a while back, except that was based around a 3.5s channel - a higher amount of haste will decrease channel time greatly (mine is ~2s right now at 4K haste during Lust), so I imagine the 5.1 fix to it will make it scale better - and a quicker channel will give it more useage, even in movement fights.
    Last edited by Alysmera; 2013-02-27 at 08:27 PM.

  6. #46
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    I tend to enjoy about 500 haste more than most due to playstyle (that and I don't use the 4-piece which would also bring down the amount of haste I need). So I would be aiming for ~6500 Haste Rating. Am I correct in the sense that secondary stat gems; at least at the start of the patch; would be more valuable than straight agility to reach our new haste points?
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-02-27 at 08:47 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    I tend to enjoy about 500 haste more than most due to playstyle (that and I don't use the 4-piece which would also bring down the amount of haste I need). So I would be aiming for ~6500 Haste Rating. Am I correct in the sense that secondary stat gems; at least at the start of the patch; would be more valuable than straight agility to reach our new haste points?
    I do believe that secondary gems are becoming more useful come patch, yes - though, I haven't personally mathed out how much stronger they'll be in comparison to agility (I should probably do that...)

    I've seen people aiming for 6500 without the 4set, and I can agree with the line of thought - the fact that we scale well with haste in ways other than energy regen just makes sense to me. I've personally only favored higher item-level gear, and gear with better itemization, though with a preference to retain 2set. It just makes the most logical sense when you take into account tiger strikes/attack speed rather than just energy regen for haste.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I do believe that secondary gems are becoming more useful come patch, yes - though, I haven't personally mathed out how much stronger they'll be in comparison to agility (I should probably do that...)

    I've seen people aiming for 6500 without the 4set, and I can agree with the line of thought - the fact that we scale well with haste in ways other than energy regen just makes sense to me. I've personally only favored higher item-level gear, and gear with better itemization, though with a preference to retain 2set. It just makes the most logical sense when you take into account tiger strikes/attack speed rather than just energy regen for haste.
    That is a double edged sword, Do you really think the value of haste is going to be so great that when you are energy capped it's still going to be ok to waste more haste for a 8% proc chance? I personally am going to have to disagree with that but if it turns out to be a dps increase more power to ya.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    That is a double edged sword, Do you really think the value of haste is going to be so great that when you are energy capped it's still going to be ok to waste more haste for a 8% proc chance? I personally am going to have to disagree with that but if it turns out to be a dps increase more power to ya.
    Not sure what you're getting at there - EB doesn't have any procs that I'm aware of I was simply commenting that haste is more beneficial to us than having an increased duration on Energizing Brew given the fact that things such as FoF and tiger strikes, in addition to our attack speed, scale with haste, and that haste is more than just energy regeneration.

    I personally wouldn't go beyond 6K haste, but I have considered forging into a little bit more simply because - even with the best EB and FoF usage for most fights - I've just found myself less comfortable with my energy. It does coincide with me transferring servers, though, so my lack of lag just leads to more actions per minute, leading to just more energy useage.

    Edit: wanted to add that the people I mentioned who are going as high as 6K haste also happen to be monks I know that are ranking on fights. So it's not like they are bad players - I'll be the first to admit that they are much better than I am.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    No I was talking about the Tiger Strikes comment, Overall once you get to a point where generation keeps the rotation fluid and dynamic I can't see a reason to keep stacking into haste. I haven't seen many high parses with high haste players I'll probably have to do some more digging and research this week since it was a fast raid week!
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    You will want to reforge into heavy Mastery on 5.2 patch and away from Crit
    Do you have any evidence support this statement ? I'd love to compare our calculations/numbers/methods/analysis. Unfortunately, unless i missed something, i didn't find messages about it in this thread.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Do you have any evidence support this statement ? I'd love to compare our calculations/numbers/methods/analysis. Unfortunately, unless i missed something, i didn't find messages about it in this thread.
    The majority coming form PTR testing, Definitely getting better dps with more Mastery on PTR so I can only assume it's going to stay that way when it's live. However it could be changed again. I noticed that simcraft has Mastery @ .50 stat value which can't be right but I'm not sure the cause of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  13. #53
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    The majority coming form PTR testing, Definitely getting better dps with more Mastery on PTR so I can only assume it's going to stay that way when it's live. However it could be changed again. I noticed that simcraft has Mastery @ .50 stat value which can't be right but I'm not sure the cause of it.
    Well working with the latest release of SimCraft (just released yesterday) and setting it to PTR. I found going to 6500ish haste rating and setting my ability to Good (down from expert) I was getting about even on both haste, Crit, and mastery.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17595079/results.html

    Granted they currently have a bug on their latest release that makes Chi Wave not do damage. This was just "hack" fixed (meaning it works but not the most clean solution) a few minutes ago so adding in the line:

    actions.st+=/chi_wave,if=talent.chi_wave.enabled

    Should work next release and improved our dps by a bit.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-03-01 at 08:00 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    The majority coming form PTR testing
    Oh, PTR dummy. Well, it's hardly appropriate, you must know that unless you make dozens of identical tests, it's not really relevant. As far as i'm concerned, my PTR tests, my calculations and my simulations (and apparently Simcraft simulations) show crit>mastery, unless you already have a high crit level via agi and crit rating. Besides, the value of mastery goes down when there's some aoe as SCK slows TEB stacking.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Oh, PTR dummy. Well, it's hardly appropriate, you must know that unless you make dozens of identical tests, it's not really relevant. As far as i'm concerned, my PTR tests, my calculations and my simulations (and apparently Simcraft simulations) show crit>mastery, unless you already have a high crit level via agi and crit rating. Besides, the value of mastery goes down when there's some aoe as SCK slows TEB stacking.
    Dummy? No, Raids testing not dummy testing, beating on a dummy just doesn't give much conclusion to anything. Simcraft isn't calculating something right, There is no way after our changes that Mastery will be valued @ .50 that just isn't happening. From all my raid testing on the PTR I had better results out of higher Mastery and balanced Crit and Haste.

    However yes I'm testing at a Heroic geared level so it is possible I'm showing Mastery with a much larger gain as i'm at 10.98 Haste ( 4668) & 32.19% Crit ( 6618 ) so my values might be different than yours.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Well working with the latest release of SimCraft (just released yesterday) and setting it to PTR. I found going to 6500ish haste rating and setting my ability to Good (down from expert) I was getting about even on both haste, Crit, and mastery.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17595079/results.html

    Granted they currently have a bug on their latest release that makes Chi Wave not do damage. This was just "hack" fixed (meaning it works but not the most clean solution) a few minutes ago so adding in the line:

    actions.st+=/chi_wave,if=talent.chi_wave.enabled

    Should work next release and improved our dps by a bit.
    Ya well from playing vs simming there is still something wrong in simcraft. I don't know what it is but I do know that Mastery is having a bigger impact than simcraft is reporting. However I'm sure whatever the issue is they will get it ironed out sooner or later but for now I'm trusting what I see and not what I sim.
    Last edited by Requital; 2013-03-01 at 05:57 PM.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Dummy? No, Raids testing not dummy testing
    Still, it's not much better, PTR raid testing might even be worse than dummies to compare two stats that are so close. You can't get much quantitative reliable data, because it's hard to fight a boss 20 times, then come back with more mastery and less crit, do 10k more dps and say "proof !".
    All you can get from PTR raids is qualitative comparisons, like "this boss favors burst damage so mastery is good", or "there is a lot of aoe on this boss so mastery is bad". You just cannot fight a Thunder Throne boss for a sufficiently long period of time to make conclusions.
    There is no way after our changes that Mastery will be valued @ .50 that just isn't happening
    I suggest you made some calculations. Having somebody's opinion is good, but certainly not sufficient to claim that crit or mastery is better.
    However yes I'm testing at a Heroic geared level
    I do observe a high mastery stat weight for very high gear levels. What were your stats like when you did your testing ?

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Still, it's not much better, PTR raid testing might even be worse than dummies to compare two stats that are so close. You can't get much quantitative reliable data, because it's hard to fight a boss 20 times, then come back with more mastery and less crit, do 10k more dps and say "proof !".
    All you can get from PTR raids is qualitative comparisons, like "this boss favors burst damage so mastery is good", or "there is a lot of aoe on this boss so mastery is bad". You just cannot fight a Thunder Throne boss for a sufficiently long period of time to make conclusions.

    I suggest you made some calculations. Having somebody's opinion is good, but certainly not sufficient to claim that crit or mastery is better.
    There are no calculations to make it's simcraft not me. However you are replying about crit and Mastery to a post where neither were compared so no idea what you are going for with that one.

    I do observe a high mastery stat weight for very high gear levels. What were your stats like when you did your testing ?
    Raid buffed 15% Haste, 40% Crit or in that range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  18. #58
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    I discovered a new item which is not on the dungeon journal loot lists: Tia-Tia, the Scything Star

    Dropped from Council of Elders (and looks awesome).

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/97130-tia...-scything-star / http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=97130 is the heroic thunderforged version which i looted, but it doesn't seem to be in wowdb/wowhead yet.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2013-03-02 at 03:40 PM.

  19. #59
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    I thought there was another thread talking about Tia-Tia?

    Persionally, though - meh. Hit/Exp? We will be swimming in that, from the looks of the loot list. Either way, though, the variety of weapon choices is wonderful. I don't see any reason to go 2H, unless one were in a 10M and just had bad luck with 1Hs.

    Also, Req, I think what you're missing is that the things saying crit > mastery have math behind them. Not just simulations. Yes, math isn't perfect - but there's a very good explanation for it: our mastery ONLY affects us while TeB is active. It will probably not be active 100% of the time. However, our crit will be active 100% of the time - meaning that it will be affect every hit. That is why at higher levels of haste, mastery will overtake crit - but probably not before that. My estimate - now that CB:TP is fixed - is that our 4P will make Mastery much stronger to stack over crit. I can't see that being mathematically logical prior to that.

  20. #60
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Agree about the hit/exp, but its the BiS transmog option at least!

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