Whats the problem with garrosh?

[Falrinn]

The problem with Garrosh is honestly that he was consistently promoted based more on his father's name and pure dumb luck then anything resembling intelligence or tactical skill.

When we first saw him in BC he was obstinately leader of the Mag'har. I say obstinately because he preferred to mope about feeling sorry for himself rather then actually leading, and as far as I can tell it wasn't all that clear why he became leader of Garadar to begin with. He did pull himself out of his stupor thanks to Thrall, but that was at the tail end of the story arc.

Fast-forward to WotLK, Thrall see's fit to place Garrosh in command of the entire Horde offensive into Northrend, more or less because he was Grom's son. Never mind the fact that Garrosh had never really commanded anything remotely similar in scale, and he had never so much as set foot on Azeroth. Garrosh then proceeds to endorse overly aggressive tactics that would of caused the Horde expedition (and possibly the Alliance's as well) to be demolished had he not been kept in check by better Orcs such as Thrall and Saurfang. He also to lobbed petty insults at almost everyone, be they Horde, Alliance, or neutral for no particular reason at all.

Then in Cataclysm he's appointed Warchief! Why? Because the defeat of the Lich King was somehow falsely attributed to him and the common people wanted him. After attaining power he proceeded to attack the Alliance at every possible opportunity despite the fact there was an evil Dragon flying around trying to make the world explode. Sure he had occasional flashes of lucidity, but he still nearly caused the offensive into the Twilight Highlands to be a bust for both factions.

Now he's basically become so consumed by dreams of conquering the world that his own allies are starting to turn on him. The simple fact is world conquest just isn't what most of the other Horde leaders are interested in. Vol'jin and Thrall have already moved against him and Lor'themar is preparing to do the same very soon. It probably won't be long before the other Horde leaders start questioning their Warchief and wondering if there isn't a better way.

[Deleted]

People seem to hate garrosh, but why?

Because people can't separate real life from fiction.

A being like Garrosh wouldn't be popular in real life. But in fiction he could be a normal person, because orcs aren't like humans.
It's just that most players can't understand that and hold Garrosh to the standards of real life.

Garrosh is a normal orc, he does what he thinks is right and what's best for his people. Thrall is the exception, he's raised by humans and that's why it's easier for us to connect to him.

Anyway, besides all that it seems Blizzard has gone out of their way to make Garrosh insane in MoP. Prior to MoP he was reasonable but with the ideals of an orc. In MoP he's just gone crazy, I wonder what's behind that. Bad storytelling or some kind of plottwist?

[Trassk]

Because people can't separate real life from fiction.

Most can actually, as writers give contrast to characters formed from real life bases, where else do you think the ideas for characters come from? Thats how fiction writers have always done so.

A being like Garrosh wouldn't be popular in real life. But in fiction he could be a normal person, because orcs aren't like humans.
It's just that most players can't understand that and hold Garrosh to the standards of real life.

No orcs are not human, but you'd have to have been living under a rock to not notice the warcraft writing team base the characters in warcraft with reflection to people in real life and there society. Tauren? Native maerican culture. Gilnean? British culture. Trolls? Jamaican and tribal culture, all human in reference.

Garrosh is a normal orc, he does what he thinks is right and what's best for his people. Thrall is the exception, he's raised by humans and that's why it's easier for us to connect to him.

Garrosh is not an normal orc. He is a architype of one certain type of orc. His architype fits into the Grom class of characterization.

The Grom Archetype:

Grom Hellscream
The most pig-headed, hard-headed, brash archetype of orc, they are ripe for corruption despite the good nature of some of them. They are the first to voice their disagreement with something, and the first to resort to violence. They are short sighted, short tempered, distrust their new allies and do little to hide this fact. Usually when an orc has this attitude, they're either big enough to back it up, or they don't live long.

http://www.wowwiki.com/How_to_roleplay_an_orc

Anyway, besides all that it seems Blizzard has gone out of their way to make Garrosh insane in MoP. Prior to MoP he was reasonable but with the ideals of an orc. In MoP he's just gone crazy, I wonder what's behind that. Bad storytelling or some kind of plottwist?

You really don't know what your talking about, you simply can't accept this has been his character progression all along, and you failed to notice the cracks and flaws as they grew since wrath days.

[Deleted]

When we first saw him in BC he was obstinately leader of the Mag'har. I say obstinately because he preferred to mope about feeling sorry for himself rather then actually leading, and as far as I can tell it wasn't all that clear why he became leader of Garadar to begin with. He did pull himself out of his stupor thanks to Thrall, but that was at the tail end of the story arc.

He was holding back his urges because he feared what he might become. He had heard of what Grom caused to his race and that's why he felt ashamed.
Garrosh was already a born leader at this time, he just held back his emotions because he feared himself. And once Greatmother Geyah got sick, he really fell in a depression because he had nobody to guide him on the right path. Nobody to protect him from himself. Once he learns of his father's redemption of his race he embraces his own feelings as well. That's why he becomes more aggressive. He finally learns that to be aggressive doesn't mean he'll only do bad things.

Fast-forward to WotLK, Thrall see's fit to place Garrosh in command of the entire Horde offensive into Northrend, more or less because he was Grom's son. Never mind the fact that Garrosh had never really commanded anything remotely similar in scale, and he had never so much as set foot on Azeroth. Garrosh then proceeds to endorse overly aggressive tactics that would of caused the Horde expedition (and possibly the Alliance's as well) to be demolished had he not been kept in check by better Orcs such as Thrall and Saurfang. He also to lobbed petty insults at almost everyone, be they Horde, Alliance, or neutral for no particular reason at all.

Garrosh commanded the Mag'har for years and kept them alive against attacks from Ogres up until Greatmother Geyah got sick. It's only then that he screws up.
And it was Garrosh who suggested to go to Northrend right away... but Thrall was only convinced once the Lich King attacked Orgrimmar. If he had listend to Garrosh they might have saved more lives. Also, we don't see it in the game but Garrosh does command the forces in Northrend right up to Icecrown. He might've made a mistake or two, but in the end he did lead his forces into defeating the Lich King. More than most racial leaders could say.

Then in Cataclysm he's appointed Warchief! Why? Because the defeat of the Lich King was somehow falsely attributed to him and the common people wanted him. After attaining power he proceeded to attack the Alliance at every possible opportunity despite the fact there was an evil Dragon flying around trying to make the world explode. Sure he had occasional flashes of lucidity, but he still nearly caused the offensive into the Twilight Highlands to be a bust for both factions.

It was the perfect opportunity. While the enemy is in disarray you take advantage of it. Besides, the Horde was starving, it was now or never.
Yes, he also made some tactical mistakes later. But he also made sure his people gained more land and didn't starve.

I don't see what's so bad about Garrosh... well until MoP that is. Now he's just crazy. Seems out of character to me.

[Shink]

i don't like him because he took part in killing my favorite leader :x even if he didn't mean it....


I hate him

[Flatspriest]

People seem to hate garrosh, but why?

He's a major douchebag.

[Deleted]

Most can actually, as writers give contrast to characters formed from real life bases, where else do you think the ideas for characters come from? Thats how fiction writers have always done so.

So players are now on par with fiction writers?

No orcs are not human, but you'd have to have been living under a rock to not notice the warcraft writing team base the characters in warcraft with reflection to people in real life and there society. Tauren? Native maerican culture. Gilnean? British culture. Trolls? Jamaican and tribal culture, all human in reference.

And Orcs are based on ancient sparta. Yes I see the resemblance. But they're also more savage.

And those archetypes you're talking about aren't official. They only take into account leaders. What about the general population? Most seem to follow Garrosh easily. Most followed Doomhammer easily as well. Thrall? Quite a few had problems with Thrall, we've seen that in the game. So I come to the conclusion that the common Orc is more like Garrosh than like Thrall.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 01:46 AM ----------

You really don't know what your talking about, you simply can't accept this has been his character progression all along, and you failed to notice the cracks and flaws as they grew since wrath days.

If it had been his progression all along then he wouldn't have shown honour in Cataclysm. It does not add up.

[JhanZ]

Garrosh is a roller-coaster of bad writing.

[Justignoreme]

I play Night Elves almost exclusively, he wants to commit genocide against them for not giving up their ancestral homeland to allow it to be clearcut, raped and turned into a polluted cesspit like Durotar and saw the Cataclysm as a perfect opportunity to strike at a nation already reeling from the destruction Deathwing unleashed. There's no honour in kicking someone while they are down. He confirmed everything the Night Elves were rightfully suspicious of the Orcs.

[Trassk]

He was holding back his urges because he feared what he might become. He had heard of what Grom caused to his race and that's why he felt ashamed.
Garrosh was already a born leader at this time, he just held back his emotions because he feared himself. And once Greatmother Geyah got sick, he really fell in a depression because he had nobody to guide him on the right path. Nobody to protect him from himself. Once he learns of his father's redemption of his race he embraces his own feelings as well. That's why he becomes more aggressive. He finally learns that to be aggressive doesn't mean he'll only do bad things.

Its so bloody ironic and yet you still said it outloud.

Garrosh commanded the Mag'har for years and kept them alive against attacks from Ogres up until Greatmother Geyah got sick. It's only then that he screws up.
And it was Garrosh who suggested to go to Northrend right away... but Thrall was only convinced once the Lich King attacked Orgrimmar. If he had listend to Garrosh they might have saved more lives. Also, we don't see it in the game but Garrosh does command the forces in Northrend right up to Icecrown. He might've made a mistake or two, but in the end he did lead his forces into defeating the Lich King. More than most racial leaders could say.

You have no proof of that to even back it up. The only evidence of Garrosh's happenings in nagrand was he was a weak, sickly orc who developed the red pox and was throwing up blood. After that, nothing, no sign of what he did for the mag'har until we run into him in tbc, and here we hear from other orc clansmen how useless a leader he is.
Again, you don't have any proof of your claims and just going on your own speculation on the forces in northrend.

It was the perfect opportunity. While the enemy is in disarray you take advantage of it. Besides, the Horde was starving, it was now or never.
Yes, he also made some tactical mistakes later. But he also made sure his people gained more land and didn't starve.

I don't see what's so bad about Garrosh... well until MoP that is. Now he's just crazy. Seems out of character to me.

If you have any clue about Groms legacy, you'd be very much aware of how the way Garrosh is acting now, is very much in line with how Grom acted, and all that has happened is while Grom managed to pull back from the brink of darkness he stepped into, Garrosh has not. He dived full on into it, and you don't seem to notice this.

you only see the minor points of Garrosh and ignore the rest.

[Hitei]

Most can actually, as writers give contrast to characters formed from real life bases, where else do you think the ideas for characters come from? Thats how fiction writers have always done so.

I'm sorry but this is just a bad argument.
If you look at the entire history of the human race, the number of leaders who had only the best interest of their people at heart is almost entirely non-existant in comparison to power-hungry, bloodthirsty leaders like Garrosh.

Characters like Thrall and Velen and Anduin are far more fairy tale than Garrosh is.

[Trassk]

I'm sorry but this is just a bad argument.
If you look at the entire history of the human race, the number of leaders who had only the best interest of their people at heart is almost entirely non-existant in comparison to power-hungry, bloodthirsty leaders like Garrosh.

Characters like Thrall and Velen and Anduin are far more fairy tale than Garrosh is.

So people who want to act on good intentions and try and make for peace are fairy tail. Man, you must be in a repressed society.

[babo7000]

He was holding back his urges because he feared what he might become. He had heard of what Grom caused to his race and that's why he felt ashamed.
Garrosh was already a born leader at this time, he just held back his emotions because he feared himself. And once Greatmother Geyah got sick, he really fell in a depression because he had nobody to guide him on the right path. Nobody to protect him from himself. Once he learns of his father's redemption of his race he embraces his own feelings as well. That's why he becomes more aggressive. He finally learns that to be aggressive doesn't mean he'll only do bad things.



Garrosh commanded the Mag'har for years and kept them alive against attacks from Ogres up until Greatmother Geyah got sick. It's only then that he screws up.
And it was Garrosh who suggested to go to Northrend right away... but Thrall was only convinced once the Lich King attacked Orgrimmar. If he had listend to Garrosh they might have saved more lives. Also, we don't see it in the game but Garrosh does command the forces in Northrend right up to Icecrown. He might've made a mistake or two, but in the end he did lead his forces into defeating the Lich King. More than most racial leaders could say.



It was the perfect opportunity. While the enemy is in disarray you take advantage of it. Besides, the Horde was starving, it was now or never.
Yes, he also made some tactical mistakes later. But he also made sure his people gained more land and didn't starve.

I don't see what's so bad about Garrosh... well until MoP that is. Now he's just crazy. Seems out of character to me.

You answered your very own question in your first paragraph.Though Garrosh is naturally kinda dickish (Hellscream genes), he is very much a tragic character.

In BC, he did great protecting his people and whatnot, but was scared about the though of actually leading them. Garrosh is an exceptional commander, but fails as a politician; He is naturally aggresive, and was never taught diplomacy. When handed the reins as Warchief, he immediately did what any General would do, he took advantage of a natural disaster and attacked his enemies. All the gains made in Cata were all due to him.

But this was desntined only to last momentarily. Once Cata was over, the Horde no longer needed a warrior like Garrosh, as there isnt much need to have war in the first place. But Garrosh got corrupted by the power. He no longer views the Horde as his people, bur HIS army, a weapon that he can use whenever he pleases. His inexperience in diplomacy led the Horde to fracture, which forced him to tighten his grip on it, which is what we have in MoP.

At the end of the day, Thrall put in someone he knew would naturally be hotheaded and brash, who had zero experience as a diplomat, im charge of an entire faction, just cause his last name is very famous and respected amongst orcs. Not the greatest move Go'el.

[Justignoreme]

If you look at the entire history of the human race, the number of leaders who had only the best interest of their people at heart is almost entirely non-existant in comparison to power-hungry, bloodthirsty leaders like Garrosh.

That's not true at all. The majority of leaders were filler material. They did nothing outstanding and just maintained equilibrium within their lands before dying boring deaths of old age or falling off their horses.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 12:59 AM ----------

Once Cata was over, the Horde no longer needed a warrior like Garrosh, as there isnt much need to have war in the first place. But Garrosh got corrupted by the power. He no longer views the Horde as his people, bur HIS army, a weapon that he can use whenever he pleases. His inexperience in diplomacy led the Horde to fracture, which forced him to tighten his grip on it, which is what we have in MoP.

And his defeats have moved him to more and more desperate and underhanded tactics.

[Pum]

He also treats his allies, such as Kael'Thas with little to no respect..

...was merely a setback!

[Wolfster]

I play Night Elves almost exclusively, he wants to commit genocide against them for not giving up their ancestral homeland to allow it to be clearcut, raped and turned into a polluted cesspit like Durotar and saw the Cataclysm as a perfect opportunity to strike at a nation already reeling from the destruction Deathwing unleashed. There's no honour in kicking someone while they are down. He confirmed everything the Night Elves were rightfully suspicious of the Orcs.

You got some facts wrong there, first of all, not all orcs agree to the way garrosh is handling things around, if you play horde u will clearly that, even thrall (somewhere during the dominance offense questline) fights off garrosh's guards and questions his methods, second, durotar is not a "polluted cesspit" it might not have lots of trees and such, but since the founding of the horde durotar was desert like (at least that how it is shown in founding of the horde campaign in WC 3) and him deciding to strike on a nation already reeling from the destruction Deathwing unleashed, well guess what they were all on the same boat here

[Hitei]

So people who want to act on good intentions and try and make for peace are fairy tail. Man, you must be in a repressed society.

No, but it's pretty clear if you look at historical examples (especially from the time period in question, where monarchy was the norm) that most leaders aren't altruistic. There are more bad leaders in human history than there are good ones.

[babo7000]

That's not true at all. The majority of leaders were filler material. They did nothing outstanding and just maintained equilibrium within their lands before dying boring deaths of old age or falling off their horses.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 12:59 AM ----------

And his defeats have moved him to more and more desperate and underhanded tactics.

Not his defeats, moreso the Alliances persistence, which once again roots back to his diplomacy issues. When he no longer needed to keep attacking the Alliances, he continued to do so because they would fight back, and he doesn't really know how to open up negotiations with them. Add into that a naturally quick temper, and you have a very dangerous leader

[Justignoreme]

You got some facts wrong there, first of all, not all orcs agree to the way garrosh is handling things around, if you play horde u will clearly that, even thrall (somewhere during the dominance offense questline) fights off garrosh's guards and questions his methods, second, durotar is not a "polluted cesspit" it might not have lots of trees and such, but since the founding of the horde durotar was desert like (at least that how it is shown in founding of the horde campaign in WC 3) and him deciding to strike on a nation already reeling from the destruction Deathwing unleashed, well guess what they were all on the same boat here

I don't have any facts wrong at all.
We're talking about Garrosh here, not Orcs in general.
Durotar is a polluted cesspit, a watershed that can't be used to water crops or even drink because the goblins ruined it = polluted cesspit (and one of the reasons garrosh invaded Night Elf land)
I'm aware Thrall took part in aiding the Echo Isles rebellion, that has dick to do with the events of Cataclysm
And who was all on the same boat? Night Elves didn't invaded Durotar... Orcs, at large, have even less respect for Night Elves than they do humans. Thrall told them such hatred was unfounded and wrong, Garrosh capitalised upon it to the point where Orcish generals murdering schools full of Night Elf children was construed as "acting on his command".

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 01:17 AM ----------

Not his defeats, moreso the Alliances persistence, which once again roots back to his diplomacy issues. When he no longer needed to keep attacking the Alliances, he continued to do so because they would fight back, and he doesn't really know how to open up negotiations with them. Add into that a naturally quick temper, and you have a very dangerous leader

You do realise that storywise the Orcs lost Ashenvale, got nowhere in the Barrens and the nuking of Theramore only resulted in a new, more heavily fortified *Northwatch* right on Orgrimmar's doorstep? The Horde's advances were repelled and defeated all over Kalimdor. Only the Forsaken have held their holdings, which was pretty much only Lordaeron. Each defeat drew Garrosh to use more and more underhanded tactics. Alliance resist the Horde invasion, murder civilians, burn homes and kill kids in a school to attempt to hurt morale. Lose in Ashenvale, nuke Theramore. Nuking Theramore results in stronger Alliance presence than ever before, try to weaponise the sha. Fail at that because of alliance intervention and we've yet to see what bigger atrocity is going to be committed.

[Torunscar]

I read this: http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/04/kn...scream-part-1/ and part 2 on WoW Insider and feel that Garrosh is a bit misunderstood. I like him. And I feel sorry for him.