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  • Orcs

    75 26.41%
  • Forsaken

    209 73.59%
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  1. #301
    Forsaken are more evil than Orcs, but Garrosh is more evil than Forsaken. How's that?

  2. #302
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Neither races are evil. Sure there are few exceptions like Gul'dan, and Putress that are indeed very evil. The races overall are not evil they are doing what is neccessary to survive. Similar to how tigers and lions are eating other animals in the wild to survive are their method savage and brutal? yes but are they evil? nope they just want to survive in this world.

  3. #303
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And where is your proof that they have been mentally altered?
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.

  4. #304
    There are quite a few good orcs, and quite a few bad orcs. There are a lot of bad orcs right now!

    There are very very few good Forsaken, and many many bad Forsaken. Statistically, as a percentage, Forsaken are more evil.

    The Forsaken rarely do anything good. They are almost always trying to do something terrible.


    If I were really on Azeroth, I would certainly Crusade to end the Forsaken. Even if I were a Horde. Forsaken are honorless scum, and Azeroth certainly doesn't need them.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Their sole purpose was revenge against the LK. Once that happened, their sole purpose is survival. Sylvanas saw a vision of the future where they were invaded and exterminated by the Alliance. They are just securing their territory to ensure their survival.

    Their methods may be sinister and taken too far on the torture, but they are doing it for self preservation.
    While I agree that they're doing it for self preservation; what they're doing is wrong. The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead. They don't take pride in the fact that they bent over to Arthas not too long ago. They're doing exactly what Arthas was doing to them to others, and while it is ''all for self preservation'' it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're hypocritical on their own choices.

  6. #306
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.
    With that all that lack of positive emotions you would think that the majority of the undead would hate their new state.
    Fact is, as seen in the game, that most of them don't mind and are okay with it.
    To them it's just a second life.

    So their new life changed them, which is something else as brainwashing them to accept their undead state.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbandonThread View Post
    While I agree that they're doing it for self preservation; what they're doing is wrong. The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead. They don't take pride in the fact that they bent over to Arthas not too long ago. They're doing exactly what Arthas was doing to them to others, and while it is ''all for self preservation'' it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're hypocritical on their own choices.
    "The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead."
    Where exactly is that stated in the game? Most undead I see don't really mind about it.

    Arthas was torturing them into Banshees or used them as mindless zombies, which is quite the opposite from what they are doing now.
    The only comparison between Arthas and the current Forsaken is that they both resurrect undead.

  7. #307
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    No they're not. It's Garrosh.

    The Orcs wouldn't do anything if it wasn't for that fuckwad.
    Yeah, like he's alone forcing every single orc to do his bidding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    The demon blood did not rob them of free will.
    Not more than an injection of pure testosterone mixed with radioactive heroine. Rabies and roofies technically do not take away free will, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.
    Their amorality stems from the fact that they have experienced death. Their hormones no longer work, because they are no longer alive, hence the supposed lack of emotionality, both positive and negative. For someone who is undead, pain and misery of others is laughable compared to what the undead himself has been through. It's like mandatory conscription: most people fear it, but once you've been through this shit, you laugh at them.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-02-18 at 12:04 AM.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  8. #308
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbandonThread View Post
    While I agree that they're doing it for self preservation; what they're doing is wrong. The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead. They don't take pride in the fact that they bent over to Arthas not too long ago. They're doing exactly what Arthas was doing to them to others, and while it is ''all for self preservation'' it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're hypocritical on their own choices.
    Most Forsaken are either resigned to or don't terribly mind it. If you do the first five quests in the new Forsaken starter zone, you see the four major schools of thought among newly-risen Forsaken: acceptance, refusal, denial, and insanity. Forsaken who accept their new status have a period of disorientation and terror, but calm down and resolve to make the best of their situation. Forsaken who refuse the second life are allowed to return to death, as seen on occasion when one of the other val'kyr raise a body and they demand to be allowed to return to their rest. Forsaken in denial have trouble accepting that they're undead, and if they refuse to join Sylvanas, are allowed to go on their way unmolested so long as they don't mobilize against the Forsaken--those who do, like the Rotbrains, are dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Some Forsaken simply get unhinged by their revival, and go mad, like Marshal Redpath. Whether these join the Forsaken or deny their offer tends to be up to the individual in question.

    CDev also noted that newly-risen Forsaken tend to be suggestible, and sufficiently-charismatic individuals like the player character, Sylvanas, or val'kyr can get them to mobilize as seen in Silverpine and the Western Plaguelands, but this state is rarely permanent and once they reassert themselves, they're given the same offer all others are.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I reject the premise of the question. Neither are evil.
    The races themselves are not evil however their leaders are defining the race.

    Garrosh is a giant war-loving idiot.

    Sylvanas on the other hand is just looking for a way to continue her people.

    In the end I think both races are full of idiots not evil.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-PvP'er at the moment-Loving it-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Larwood View Post
    No, I'm blaming the rest of the Forsaken. "We wouldn't have gone and killed all those people if Sylvanas was here!" does not make them good, it makes them bad.
    By your logic, humans are bad because they slaughtered everyone in Stratholme under Arthas.

    They didn't want to do it (for self preservation). Lydon tried to oppose Garrosh, but he was too weak to do it. It's not like they could refuse when Garrosh has an entire Horde army there.

    Also, they have a genuine grievance against Gilneas which Garrosh used in his speech to rile them up. Gilneas abandoned them to die in the Third War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larwood View Post
    Completely irrelevant to this discussion. They would do anything to escape, the reason they want to escape doesn't make them any less likely to lie to and manipulate Sylvanas.

    So the Val'kyr have the ability to show people visions of the future but they don't have the ability to include events happening in the current time? Makes sense!

    They needed her alive to escape. Do you understand this? They need her alive, so they show her terrible things that happen supposedly as a result of her not being alive! Wow it's ingenious!
    They are doing it for her. They willingly sacrifice themselves to keep her alive. One sacrifices herself to resurrect Sylvanas at ICC. Three sacrifice themselves to resurrect her in Silverpine. And they aren't going to a peaceful afterlife. They knowingly taking her place in eternal torment.

    If it was a fabrication, how exactly would they be aware of what is happening at Gilneas?

    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    Its hard to call people slaves when they willingly follow and vote im a leader that is obviously batshit insane.

    Like I said, the demon blood cursed the orcs and robbed them of free will. However, it was there own decision to follow Gul'Dan planned attack on the Draenei (with no proof of them ever plotting against the orcs), and to drink the blood because it was going to make them all the more powerful.
    Gul'dan didn't order the attack on the Draenei, it was Ner'zhul. They were given this information from Kil'jaeden posing as one of their benevolent spirits (his dead wife). What reason do they have to question their spirits, whom have guided and protected them for at least a thousand years? Once the spirit began showing intense hatred for the Draenei, Ner'zhul began to question the spirit's divinity.

    Drinking the Blood was something they did out of a lust for power. Not the best reason, but they didn't know it would rob them of their morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It does still rightfully belong to the people of Stromgarde and the Trollbane family. There is still a royal and his subjects regardless of the state of them.

    The fact the Forsaken are after is the evidence that their campaign is not at it's core about reclaiming their own fallen kingdom. It shows their own hypocrisy in their motives.
    It's not exactly easy to put into words, but you can't use the logic that the Forsaken are in the right to claim places like WPL because it was part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, while pretending that those of Stromgarde do not have the same right to their own land.
    This is the problem with the current motive with the Forsaken and it's part of the reason I dislike the writing in their current story. One moment they're trying to ask for sympathy because they were citizens of Lordaeron and just want their land back during the Silverpine quest line, the next their invading somebody else's land to claim it as their own.

    Their advances into Arathi and the Hinterlands are just wrong. Their advances into ex-Lordaeron zones is understandable, the methods though are not.


    Also - in before "All land is troll land" .
    The vision shows the Alliance invasion goes through the East side of EK and attacks UC from WPL. That's why she's trying to secure those locations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.
    Their lack of emotion is a sign of psychopathy. Being a psychopath is not the sole determinant of a person being evil or doing evil things. There are plenty of psychopaths who aren't murderers.

    Also, it is possible for them to show concern for other people (even the living). Lydon was concerned about what would happen to the Garithos' men after they captured Lordaeron.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    "Involuntary Intoxication" doesn't mean they were slaves. All of the things you talk about were things that went down between different orcs/orc clans. That doesn't mean they were slaves to the Legion. If anything they were slaves to their warchief, who was manipulated by the Shadow Council.
    Just because they didn't lose their free will doesn't mean they weren't slaves. The Blood Curse corrupted them and robbed them of their morality and inhibition (involuntary intoxication like drugged up sex slaves). This made them pliable to the Legion's will. Once they were corrupted, Kil'jaeden had them reproduce and accelerated their growth into adults, robbing them of their childhood. This massive population boom ravaged the resources of the planet, causing infighting. An entire generation was bred by the Legion.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-17 at 10:29 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  11. #311
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just because they didn't lose their free will doesn't mean they weren't slaves. The Blood Curse corrupted them and robbed them of their morality and inhibition (involuntary intoxication like drugged up sex slaves). This made them pliable to the Legion's will. Once they were corrupted, Kil'jaeden had them reproduce and accelerated their growth into adults, robbing them of their childhood. This massive population boom ravaged the resources of the planet, causing infighting. An entire generation was bred by the Legion.
    They weren't that much different before the Blood Curse corrupted them, in terms of morals. And when Doomhammer took over, and the manipulation through the Shadow Council stopped, they were still on their same path of conquest. Doomhammer never drank the blood, as far as I know either.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    They weren't that much different before the Blood Curse corrupted them, in terms of morals. And when Doomhammer took over, and the manipulation through the Shadow Council stopped, they were still on their same path of conquest. Doomhammer never drank the blood, as far as I know either.
    Some are just assholes, like Gul'dan, Garrosh, and Doomhammer. Then there are some that are completely honorable, like Durotan and the Frostwolves. The Curse just pushes them towards the Garrosh side of the spectrum.

    There are warmongering humans too. Doesn't mean they are all like that.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-18 at 08:04 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #313
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Their lack of emotion is a sign of psychopathy. Being a psychopath is not the sole determinant of a person being evil or doing evil things. There are plenty of psychopaths who aren't murderers.

    Also, it is possible for them to show concern for other people (even the living). Lydon was concerned about what would happen to the Garithos' men after they captured Lordaeron.
    Well it is possible.

    "There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath."

    "The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli,"

    They're also inept at feeling physically positive as they can only feel pain.

  14. #314
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I reject the premise of the question. Neither are evil.
    ^^ This

    /10

  15. #315
    "I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible "

    The examples you listed isn't true ressurection. From what I recall, the humans and Draenei that Velen healed were merely 'gravely injured' not dead.

    Arthas bringing Sylvanas back isn't ressurection as it is Necromancy. See my original post on Necromancy in Azeroth a few pages back.

    Cenarius is an Ancient Guardian and is Eternal. He can never die, nor can any of the other ancients. Goldrinn fell in battle way back in the War of the Ancients, and here he is today running around Hyjal. The Guardians of Hyjal are 'eternal' and cannot die, so their return isn't ressurection.

    If ressurection existed in lore, anyone who 'died' lorewise, could just be brought back. The only exception to this would possibly be the Naaru, considering their immense powers, and we even saw that they couldn't save someone afflicted with the Scourge Plague.

  16. #316
    3rd option, neither. Bad poll is bad.

  17. #317
    I think the forsaken. They are bad ass and don't give a ****.

    Orcs are just.. orcs. LOL

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Well it is possible.

    "There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath."

    "The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli,"

    They're also inept at feeling physically positive as they can only feel pain.
    More than just positive emotions are muted. It applies to negative emotions as well. Sylvanas didn't feel pain, pity, fear, horror, or regret until she died again in ICC and her soul was made whole. But as your citations imply, the amount emotions are blocked varies between people.

    I thought that the positive change she experienced in the "Realm of Anguish" would have persisted into her new life. But I guess it doesn't. Or if it did, it would be muted (which is unfortunate because it was pretty weak to begin with). I'm no longer expecting to see any more signs of empathy from her.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 01:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister J View Post
    "I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible "

    The examples you listed isn't true ressurection. From what I recall, the humans and Draenei that Velen healed were merely 'gravely injured' not dead.

    Arthas bringing Sylvanas back isn't ressurection as it is Necromancy. See my original post on Necromancy in Azeroth a few pages back.

    Cenarius is an Ancient Guardian and is Eternal. He can never die, nor can any of the other ancients. Goldrinn fell in battle way back in the War of the Ancients, and here he is today running around Hyjal. The Guardians of Hyjal are 'eternal' and cannot die, so their return isn't ressurection.

    If ressurection existed in lore, anyone who 'died' lorewise, could just be brought back. The only exception to this would possibly be the Naaru, considering their immense powers, and we even saw that they couldn't save someone afflicted with the Scourge Plague.
    Naruu resurrection is part of their natural life cycle (like a phoenix).

    Resurrection does exist in lore, but it took Aegwynn years to gather enough energy to resurrect Medivh.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-18 at 09:40 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Most Forsaken are either resigned to or don't terribly mind it. If you do the first five quests in the new Forsaken starter zone, you see the four major schools of thought among newly-risen Forsaken: acceptance, refusal, denial, and insanity.
    And if you go to Silverpine you'll see that some even love their new state of being like Lord Godfrey and his Gilnean friends.

  20. #320
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Some are just assholes, like Gul'dan, Garrosh, and Doomhammer. Then there are some that are completely honorable, like Durotan and the Frostwolves. The Curse just pushes them towards the Garrosh side of the spectrum.

    There are warmongering humans too. Doesn't mean they are all like that.
    The percentage among orcs is quite high.

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