what the fuck are you talking about? No one is lamenting him at all. Ya he was a bastard. Sylvanas is a far bigger treacherous rotting bitch but you fanbois think no end of her. She deserved everything that has happened to her, and really deserves to be offed for good in the storyline for everything she's done. You are so pathetically one sided it's unreal. I don't have any love for Garithos, I just wonder why you think it's okay to hate an ENTIRE FACTION for the actions of a few, which PALE in comparison to the actions of the HORDE against the ALLIANCE, which you say the Alliance should just take and be fine with. Hypocritical rubbish through and through.They killed a bastard, and you lament him like he a martyr.
Sylvanas could've simply told them to fuck off. She made the agreement and lied about it. I guess it's okay.Ahem... actually, the reason Sylvanas liberated Garithos and his men (read the bolded part aloud several times to remember) was that they had poor chances of taking the Undercity alone, with dreadlords still active. Hence, they liberated Garithos and his men, and struck a deal: they go on a joined assault on Undercity, Garithos gets everything, Forsaken get nothing and GTFO if they don't want to be slain. There's no arguing that. Now, does this sound like a fair agreement? Of course it does to The Superior Faction.
Has dick to do with game mechanics. The Elves Immortality as defined in the game meant they'd never grow old and weak then eventually die. No ones characters will be walking a 70 year timeline. And it wasn't "cutting wood" that bothered the Night Elves, it was cutting down THEIR FORESTS. Which are their sacred homes. But ya, it's okay right? Fuck them, they are just purple tree huggers and there's no harm in taking wood from their land and destroying it in the process? Cause thats what you Horde fans think. I've yet to ever hear a single one of you say THAT was wrong or even understand it. But god forbid some humans don't wanna team up with Forsaken and it's a huge insulting travesty and they are all racist hater bigots.Well, if you go on about orcs... saving Azeroth was not even their business. Either they help save it and get a place in it, or not. However the NE chose to side with the Alliance (like humans and dwarves never, ever cut wood). Though I believe this thing is largely dictated by game mechanics.
They didn't save the Blood Elves. The ones who saved the Blood Elves are the Draenei. All the Forsaken did was exert their influence upon them and make veiled threats of obedience. To her more than the Horde itself.They have liberated Garithos and his men from mind slavery. They have saved the Blood Elves - Sylvanas was the one who convinced Thrall to take them into the Horde, and gave them support in Ghostlands.
Game mechanic, it, just like Zombie Plague, wasn't exactly a canonical lore device.They have invented a cure from Lich King's zombie plague (pre-Wrath event).
And it will be okay for the next generation of Forsaken, people like Lillian Voss and Lord Godfrey to seek vengeance against those whom are responsible for their condition. I hope they rip Sylvanas limb from limbIt was okay to use and betray racist bigots, who have used and betrayed Blood Elves before.
---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 07:10 AM ----------
She's not shifting her vengeance towards anyone. She is securing her territory in a defensive effort because she knows the Alliance will invade and try to exterminate them.
---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 11:13 PM ----------
glad we've cleared that up, now let's stop trying to find justification for her actions.Yes, she is a psychopath.
there were no events currently happening. Varian Wrynn wasn't marching on Undercity...A vision of the future that included events that were currently happening, but she would have no knowledge of.
I am not convinced she's not acting out of self interest, like I said putting a nation between yourself and an eternity burning in hell with Arthas is a good survival strategy. but this is opinion and Im sick of going roundabout on it. I don't think she's changed her attitude at all. You do. I provide my reasons, you provide yours, both valid, the story has yet to be written.Not acting not out of self interest and seeking kinship doesn't constitute a change?
No, she was present for the Gilneas intro questline, bloody hell, play a Worgen... she wasn't off in ICC killing herself at the time.She didn't attack Gilneas. Garrosh attacked Gilneas with the Forsaken army while she was in ICC killing herself.
She's not shifting her vengeance towards anyone. She is securing her territory in a defensive effort because she knows the Alliance will invade and try to exterminate them.[/quote] She*fears* the Alliance will. She knows nothing. The Alliance hasn't made any aggression towards her at all. She's been attacking them...
Enemy of my enemy =/= my friend.Saving their lives and working together to fight the Scourge aren't reasons to begin trusting her?
There's "no reason" to believe a guy shuffling up to you at night as you walk alone on a sidewalk is going to mug you but would you let yourself be caught off guard? Or will you try to handle this by saying "there is a reason, and the reason is (insert clothing, demeanor, ethnicity etc)".I'm not excusing her. I know they were right about her being untrustworthy. The key is that they had no reason to believe she was a lying psychopath before she actually betrayed anyone.
Arrows in a quiver, right?You have a funny definition of betrayal.
---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 07:23 AM ----------
And just for clarification, I don't find the Forsaken to be evil. Their endless vengeance is not necessarily evil, but it's destructive, to the ends of self-destructive. It has to change.
Why? Because Garithos was an idiot and an Alliance-member.
Nobody in the Horde or the Forsaken will let a tear for his passing.
Was it a bitch-move? Maybe.. But they would do it again with no remorse.
But that doesn't make Sylvanas or the Forsaken "evil".
No, what justifies hating an entire race/faction is the repeatedly betrayal and backstabbing from people who are supposed to be your "allies".No one said it was. But it sure as hell doesn't justify hating an entire race and faction. Now how about YOU answer my question because THAT is the ACTUAL POINT? Oh wait you won't. You haven't the ability to, it requires you to get out of your little forsaken fanboi echo chamber. Please do though. At least try since I've fucked away too much time repeating the same crap you should've just read from my earlier posts.
In our own real history we had enough wars for less bullshit.
While she's in ICC: "Garrosh's backhand ripped through the sky, spraying the tent with a glistening arc of rainwater as it smashed into the side of Lydon's face."
In the vision of the future: "Master Apothecary Lydon was there, his left arm missing and an enormous gash across his face."
Lydon gets his face smashed in the present while Sylvanas is in ICC, yet that mark shows up in the vision.
"My three fastest ships have already been dispatched to the southern coast to divert the attention of the Gilnean capital. And even now I gather reinforcements from Deathknell."
These ships have just been sent. They are part of the Worgen starting zone. Therefore, the Worgen starting zone and Sylvanas' involvement happen after she returned and took over to reduce Forsaken casualties.
Nah, I'm out. It's of no use to argue with a fanatic. Let's just accept that the Forsaken are the ultimate evil of Warcraft, Sylvanas is worse than Deathwing and Lich King combined, and that Alliance is flawless and never to blame for anything. All the undead, orcs, and blood elves have always been inherently full of lies, betrayal, and wrongness in everything they ever did, so it's fine to prosecute them for existing.
So yeah, I think your one (1) anecdote saves the rest, right?
Then, in the winter of 1667, Denys performed several transfusions on Antoine Mauroy with calf's blood, who on the third account died. Much controversy surrounded his death as Mauroy's wife asserted Denys was responsible for her husband's death. Denys was charged with murder but was acquitted, and in an unusual twist, Mauroy's wife was accused of causing his death which was later determined to be from arsenic poisoning.
After the trial, Denys quit the practice of medicine and his experiments with animal blood provoked a heated controversy in France, which banned the procedure in 1670. It wasn't until after Karl Landsteiner's discovery of the four blood groups in 1902 that blood transfusions became safe and reliable.
The whole thread doesn't seem to have moved forward from the usual, shallow "Ooh they're not evil, they're just being utterly reckless and hellbent on getting more power regardless of others' and self's well-being!" -mumbling anyway. I wonder where such stagnation stems from.
I'll give you that when some forsaken are ''ressed'', they aren't all about '"DEATH TO THE LIVING'' or ''VENGEANCE RAWAWG!''. Some of them just want to serve their new queen, who brought them back. However, that new queen is running about, killing living people, often civillians, purely so she can bring them back to life as her minions (Brainwashed minions as we see following WPL) regardless of whether they want to join the forsaken or not.
I'm not going to go so far as to label that outright ''Evil''. Hell, she could probably be seen as doing what she thinks is right from her perspective. But lets not point blankedly deny that running about, killing people and using their corpses to create monsters or unwilling soldiers isn't morally questionable.
Compared to that, the Orcs are just fighting a war. A bloodthirsty one, but when is a war not? /srsbsns abt cmpter gaemz OFF
Do you want me to give examples from psychology and neurology? How about the whole practice of lobotomies? Or organ transplants? Or how about animal testing? A lot of the experiments done in these fields could be considered torture. Doesn't make the scientists evil.
Also, your example doesn't even support the argument you are trying to make. Denys' subjects survived just fine. The one you mentioned died because he was poisoned by his wife.
Then there is the night elven incursion and the dwarven spy that more or less sealed the deal.
They cured the new plague the Lich King unleashed prior to Wotlk, though that is actually the only major thing that comes to mind ;PTell me one good thing the Forsaken have actually done, as a nation, to benefit even the HORDE much more the world?
Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-02-16 at 11:51 AM.
He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.
Women still were 2nd class citizens back then, it wasn't that difficult to put problems on them.Denys was charged with murder but was acquitted, and in an unusual twist, Mauroy's wife was accused of causing his death which was later determined to be from arsenic poisoning
There's a clear line between a surgering doctor who knows what he's doing and total neglicence of other people's wellbeing; these people barely did systematic science. Just because they ended up with scientific evidence doesn't remove their deeds away from moral responsibility.
I can't believe you actually offered lobotomy as an example.
Specifically with blood transfusions, they were doing it for curative purposes. They believed that transfusing the blood of a docile animal (like a lamb) would have a calming influence on an agitated person. Or that the blood of a sociable animal would make a shy person more outgoing.
So did nazis believe too they were making the world a favor. I can't believe you're actually weighting ethics and morals based on obliviousness and ignorance.Specifically with blood transfusions, they were doing it for curative purposes. They believed that transfusing the blood of a docile animal (like a lamb) would have a calming influence on an agitated person. Or that the blood of a sociable animal would make a shy person more outgoing.
My original statement still stands: "Science IRL is full of distasteful experiments. Doesn't make those researchers evil." There are more cases than not, where the suffering of the subjects is nonexistent or incidental and unforeseen. Being evil requires intent. Being ignorant of potentially deleterious effects isn't good, but it doesn't make them evil.