Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Aquamonkey]

No, I'm blaming the rest of the Forsaken. "We wouldn't have gone and killed all those people if Sylvanas was here!" does not make them good, it makes them bad.

By your logic, humans are bad because they slaughtered everyone in Stratholme under Arthas.

They didn't want to do it (for self preservation). Lydon tried to oppose Garrosh, but he was too weak to do it. It's not like they could refuse when Garrosh has an entire Horde army there.

Also, they have a genuine grievance against Gilneas which Garrosh used in his speech to rile them up. Gilneas abandoned them to die in the Third War.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion. They would do anything to escape, the reason they want to escape doesn't make them any less likely to lie to and manipulate Sylvanas.

So the Val'kyr have the ability to show people visions of the future but they don't have the ability to include events happening in the current time? Makes sense!

They needed her alive to escape. Do you understand this? They need her alive, so they show her terrible things that happen supposedly as a result of her not being alive! Wow it's ingenious!

They are doing it for her. They willingly sacrifice themselves to keep her alive. One sacrifices herself to resurrect Sylvanas at ICC. Three sacrifice themselves to resurrect her in Silverpine. And they aren't going to a peaceful afterlife. They knowingly taking her place in eternal torment.

If it was a fabrication, how exactly would they be aware of what is happening at Gilneas?

Its hard to call people slaves when they willingly follow and vote im a leader that is obviously batshit insane.

Like I said, the demon blood cursed the orcs and robbed them of free will. However, it was there own decision to follow Gul'Dan planned attack on the Draenei (with no proof of them ever plotting against the orcs), and to drink the blood because it was going to make them all the more powerful.

Gul'dan didn't order the attack on the Draenei, it was Ner'zhul. They were given this information from Kil'jaeden posing as one of their benevolent spirits (his dead wife). What reason do they have to question their spirits, whom have guided and protected them for at least a thousand years? Once the spirit began showing intense hatred for the Draenei, Ner'zhul began to question the spirit's divinity.

Drinking the Blood was something they did out of a lust for power. Not the best reason, but they didn't know it would rob them of their morality.

It does still rightfully belong to the people of Stromgarde and the Trollbane family. There is still a royal and his subjects regardless of the state of them.

The fact the Forsaken are after is the evidence that their campaign is not at it's core about reclaiming their own fallen kingdom. It shows their own hypocrisy in their motives.
It's not exactly easy to put into words, but you can't use the logic that the Forsaken are in the right to claim places like WPL because it was part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, while pretending that those of Stromgarde do not have the same right to their own land.
This is the problem with the current motive with the Forsaken and it's part of the reason I dislike the writing in their current story. One moment they're trying to ask for sympathy because they were citizens of Lordaeron and just want their land back during the Silverpine quest line, the next their invading somebody else's land to claim it as their own.

Their advances into Arathi and the Hinterlands are just wrong. Their advances into ex-Lordaeron zones is understandable, the methods though are not.


Also - in before "All land is troll land" .

The vision shows the Alliance invasion goes through the East side of EK and attacks UC from WPL. That's why she's trying to secure those locations.

We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.

Their lack of emotion is a sign of psychopathy. Being a psychopath is not the sole determinant of a person being evil or doing evil things. There are plenty of psychopaths who aren't murderers.

Also, it is possible for them to show concern for other people (even the living). Lydon was concerned about what would happen to the Garithos' men after they captured Lordaeron.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 01:09 PM ----------

"Involuntary Intoxication" doesn't mean they were slaves. All of the things you talk about were things that went down between different orcs/orc clans. That doesn't mean they were slaves to the Legion. If anything they were slaves to their warchief, who was manipulated by the Shadow Council.

Just because they didn't lose their free will doesn't mean they weren't slaves. The Blood Curse corrupted them and robbed them of their morality and inhibition (involuntary intoxication like drugged up sex slaves). This made them pliable to the Legion's will. Once they were corrupted, Kil'jaeden had them reproduce and accelerated their growth into adults, robbing them of their childhood. This massive population boom ravaged the resources of the planet, causing infighting. An entire generation was bred by the Legion.

[Deleted]

Just because they didn't lose their free will doesn't mean they weren't slaves. The Blood Curse corrupted them and robbed them of their morality and inhibition (involuntary intoxication like drugged up sex slaves). This made them pliable to the Legion's will. Once they were corrupted, Kil'jaeden had them reproduce and accelerated their growth into adults, robbing them of their childhood. This massive population boom ravaged the resources of the planet, causing infighting. An entire generation was bred by the Legion.

They weren't that much different before the Blood Curse corrupted them, in terms of morals. And when Doomhammer took over, and the manipulation through the Shadow Council stopped, they were still on their same path of conquest. Doomhammer never drank the blood, as far as I know either.

[Aquamonkey]

They weren't that much different before the Blood Curse corrupted them, in terms of morals. And when Doomhammer took over, and the manipulation through the Shadow Council stopped, they were still on their same path of conquest. Doomhammer never drank the blood, as far as I know either.

Some are just assholes, like Gul'dan, Garrosh, and Doomhammer. Then there are some that are completely honorable, like Durotan and the Frostwolves. The Curse just pushes them towards the Garrosh side of the spectrum.

There are warmongering humans too. Doesn't mean they are all like that.

[Scummer]

Their lack of emotion is a sign of psychopathy. Being a psychopath is not the sole determinant of a person being evil or doing evil things. There are plenty of psychopaths who aren't murderers.

Also, it is possible for them to show concern for other people (even the living). Lydon was concerned about what would happen to the Garithos' men after they captured Lordaeron.

Well it is possible.

"There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath."

"The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli,"

They're also inept at feeling physically positive as they can only feel pain.

[FuxieDK]

I reject the premise of the question. Neither are evil.

^^ This

/10

[Mister J]

"I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible "

The examples you listed isn't true ressurection. From what I recall, the humans and Draenei that Velen healed were merely 'gravely injured' not dead.

Arthas bringing Sylvanas back isn't ressurection as it is Necromancy. See my original post on Necromancy in Azeroth a few pages back.

Cenarius is an Ancient Guardian and is Eternal. He can never die, nor can any of the other ancients. Goldrinn fell in battle way back in the War of the Ancients, and here he is today running around Hyjal. The Guardians of Hyjal are 'eternal' and cannot die, so their return isn't ressurection.

If ressurection existed in lore, anyone who 'died' lorewise, could just be brought back. The only exception to this would possibly be the Naaru, considering their immense powers, and we even saw that they couldn't save someone afflicted with the Scourge Plague.

[Kantoro]

3rd option, neither. Bad poll is bad.

[strangerdanger]

I think the forsaken. They are bad ass and don't give a ****.

Orcs are just.. orcs. LOL

[Aquamonkey]

Well it is possible.

"There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath."

"The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli,"

They're also inept at feeling physically positive as they can only feel pain.

More than just positive emotions are muted. It applies to negative emotions as well. Sylvanas didn't feel pain, pity, fear, horror, or regret until she died again in ICC and her soul was made whole. But as your citations imply, the amount emotions are blocked varies between people.

I thought that the positive change she experienced in the "Realm of Anguish" would have persisted into her new life. But I guess it doesn't. Or if it did, it would be muted (which is unfortunate because it was pretty weak to begin with). I'm no longer expecting to see any more signs of empathy from her.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 01:37 AM ----------

"I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible "

The examples you listed isn't true ressurection. From what I recall, the humans and Draenei that Velen healed were merely 'gravely injured' not dead.

Arthas bringing Sylvanas back isn't ressurection as it is Necromancy. See my original post on Necromancy in Azeroth a few pages back.

Cenarius is an Ancient Guardian and is Eternal. He can never die, nor can any of the other ancients. Goldrinn fell in battle way back in the War of the Ancients, and here he is today running around Hyjal. The Guardians of Hyjal are 'eternal' and cannot die, so their return isn't ressurection.

If ressurection existed in lore, anyone who 'died' lorewise, could just be brought back. The only exception to this would possibly be the Naaru, considering their immense powers, and we even saw that they couldn't save someone afflicted with the Scourge Plague.

Naruu resurrection is part of their natural life cycle (like a phoenix).

Resurrection does exist in lore, but it took Aegwynn years to gather enough energy to resurrect Medivh.

[Yriel]

Most Forsaken are either resigned to or don't terribly mind it. If you do the first five quests in the new Forsaken starter zone, you see the four major schools of thought among newly-risen Forsaken: acceptance, refusal, denial, and insanity.

And if you go to Silverpine you'll see that some even love their new state of being like Lord Godfrey and his Gilnean friends.

[Deleted]

Some are just assholes, like Gul'dan, Garrosh, and Doomhammer. Then there are some that are completely honorable, like Durotan and the Frostwolves. The Curse just pushes them towards the Garrosh side of the spectrum.

There are warmongering humans too. Doesn't mean they are all like that.

The percentage among orcs is quite high.

[Maxilian]

Well... i don't think any of them are evil, most people will say that the forsakens are evil, I don't really agree with that, cause... what have they done bad?, The worst thing they have done many be Gilneas... but Sylvanas didn't want to attack Gilneas, but Garrosh pushed the forsaken to attack Gilneas because he wanted to create a naval base in gilneas... and let me quote what Airwaves said:

At the core of it the orcs are just looking for somewhere better then the middle of a desert so they can prosper and there kids can grow up somewhere there isn't a risk of starvation. Are they going about that the wrong way? Hell yes. Does this make them evil but? Hell no.

The forsaken are just looking to fortify there borders so they can be left alone. They have no interest in going beyond that now that the lich king is dead. They have no way to reproduce so they have to use the valk's or be wiped out. Are they going about it the wrong way? No since there choice is simple fight or be killed. Use the valk's or be obliterated by the alliance. Does this make them evil? No since they have no choice to fight since the alliance isn't going to leave them alone even though it is realy there land and was long before they were undead. The current alliance has no right to the undead land but they only see them as monsters not the rightful owners of the land.

Both races are doing what they have to to see the survival of there people. This does not make them evil that makes them good to there own people and bad to any who are opposed to there ideas. Lor'themar said it. "The horde exists because of the alliance". Both the orcs and the undead do what they do to see the survival of there races.

Before people say "what about theramore". That was a defence move to cut off them supplying the night elves. And the only reason they went to war in Ashenvale was because the night elves would not trade with them. It was invade Ashenvale or watch the orcs stave to death. Thrall would have done the exact same thing if the night elves would not trade with them. Thrall would have put the orcs and trolls before the night elves and invaded Ashenvale as well.

IMHO i would say that the more evil are the orcs... and not really the orcs..., is more like Garrosh is the evil one, and not because what he did in Theramore, just because what he have done to his allies, he making his forces kill anyone that speak against him...

[Scummer]

The percentage among orcs is quite high.

Ofcourse it's higher. Their society has always promoted violence. The fault lies in their society and the traits they believe are most important. Orcs themselves aren't born bad or anything of the sort, it's just their society.

[Deleted]

Ofcourse it's higher. Their society has always promoted violence. The fault lies in their society and the traits they believe are most important. Orcs themselves aren't born bad or anything of the sort, it's just their society.

Even Thrall feels that bloodlust, even though he was "raised" by humans.

[Mawnix]

Evil is subjective, and neither the Orcs nor Forsaken are truly the definition of "evil".

The Orcs, a good amount of them currently, are simply following their Warchief's rule, while some of them are split between their allegiance to him and whether or not the path Garrosh is leading them down is the right one.

The Forsaken do what they feel they must to survive in this world. If there's any true persecuted race, I've always felt it was them.

They have no means or procreating, and the only way they can create more of their kind is through..unconventional means.

Regardless, I'd choose the darker of the two which is the Forsaken.

[Anjerith]

I see the Orcs as more trying to establish themselves as a people, with a nation of their own making - something they have striven to do since coming to Kalimdor.

I see the Forsaken as a people striving to gain the acceptance of the people that were their allies in life, and trying desperately not to be driven into forced extinction by the simple fact that they can't reproduce.

This is like saying "Who is more Evil - Gnomes or Worgen?". If anything, Gnomes caused a huge chemical disaster that is going to eventually destroy the ability for any land that Gnomeregan happens to be under to produce crops, which will lead to the death of wildlife and the exodus of humanoids from that area. They did this because it amused them to play with that sort of shit.

[Gelannerai]

Again, the mere fact that Theresa the Mind-Slave exists is fairly damning as far as the Forsaken are concerned.

[Woeful]

At their core from the outside looking in -- Forsaken clearly more evil. Evil spelled backwards is Live. For the Forsaken to live they must prey upon the living or once dead of Loreadon. At some point they will reach critical mass and need new bodies to survive.

Orcs . Well they are trying to survive as well. But they can do so more peacefully.

Orcs will learn that their long term survival means getting along with other races -- Forsaken will learn that long term survival means feeding on the other races.

Viewed from the inside. Forsaken will see themselves as desperately trying to survive as a people. The ends will justify the means.

Orcs have a shamanistic outlook on some levels. They will eventually find harmony. The blood curse is now gone. The orcs will remain aggressive only to the point of defending what they have won.

[babo7000]

I see the Orcs as more trying to establish themselves as a people, with a nation of their own making - something they have striven to do since coming to Kalimdor.

I see the Forsaken as a people striving to gain the acceptance of the people that were their allies in life, and trying desperately not to be driven into forced extinction by the simple fact that they can't reproduce.

This is like saying "Who is more Evil - Gnomes or Worgen?". If anything, Gnomes caused a huge chemical disaster that is going to eventually destroy the ability for any land that Gnomeregan happens to be under to produce crops, which will lead to the death of wildlife and the exodus of humanoids from that area. They did this because it amused them to play with that sort of shit.

Or a people that were facing extinction from a sentient race of subterranean brutes, and were betrayed from within by one of their top politicians durimg this crisis. When you think about it, Gnomes and Blood Elves seem very similar.

To be honest, this is all very subjective. When I see Orcs, I see a race that was purposely put to live in a shithole because of the atrocities they committed in the previous 2 wars. Then, seeing themselves as blameless for these actions, decide that they should live in prosperity in a world they invaded, which in their mind can only be achieved by wiping out a race that has lived in the forest for thousands of years.

With the Forsaken, I see a race born out of evil, that betrayed those who helped them defeat their enemies (regardless of what Garithos MAY have do.e), and feels undeserving of the hate and mistrust they deservingly recieve. And to ensure their survival, they go out hunting corpses to ressurect into their misbegoten lifestyle. Is it justified for humans to go out raping women so that we can have more.babies?

[Deleted]

Surely it's only a matter of time til Sylvie goes coo coo.