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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I expected Night Elves to continue to be how they were introduced in the Warcraft Universe instead of what they've been reduced to in WoW by crap writers. And it hasn't much of anything to do with Tolkien.
    Same. I loved the night elves in WC3. Nowadays, all I love about night elves is Darkshore, which touches still the night elf style good in a way (traditionalist, not wanting to leave Auberdine since it was their home, revengeful on the trolls, killing each and every one as payback for 2-3 dead night elves, communion to nature, a relation to Elune), Feralas (having most of their allies come together, having them fight great evils like Cho'gall alone) and that's mostly it.

    I don't know, there are fewer and fewer actual night elves by how we met them in WC3, and funny enough, one night elf whom I could say for sure "this is a night elf" was Thisalee Crow, which was neutral. I felt she was how night elves should be, as in, faking not being interested in anything(she was cleaning her nails with a dagger when she met you), watchful of others (though she sent you to deal with the harpy leader, she was there too, she was watching you), smart and devious (making you think you have the choice in dealing with the harpy, but she has the blade) and savage (if you chose to let the harpy go she says she probably wouldn't have done it).
    Another night elf that actually is in the Alliance is Shandris. She kind of has same aspects, doesn't let anything to chance, has experience etc, I won't go into detail.

    Yet that's how many, 2 night elves and 2 zones? What about all the other places night elves are in? Ashenvale just makes me sad seeing how low the night elves go there, how stupid and incompetent they are, Azshara the same, I won't even speak about other zones.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    One can hope for the sake of the Horde and the rest of the alliance :P

    A worthy enemy is atleast something or a competent defender for the rest of the alliance.

    On the Tolkien thing, I'm kinda happy they are not the same as in World of Warcraft but I'm diehard dwarven fan so my view is biased :P
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  3. #23
    Night Elves are blizzard's take on the concept of Dark Elves or Drow from DND. Of course DND is loosely based on the works of Tolkein. It was mentioned in the art book for the CE edition of WCIII.

    Probably why woman, esp. the Priestessess of Elune are such highly revered in Night Elf culture. Woman in Drow culture are the dominant ones.
    My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    So you are disappointed that Blizzard writers aren't as good as Tolkien - the godfather of Middle Earth? You have some pretty high expectations.
    This is more or less what I came to say.

  5. #25
    Firstly, I don't understand why everyone thinks the night elves are old, so they must be the best at everything. They had a major civil war involving demons and nearly destroyed the earth. Large portions of their population died. The remainder became somewhat xenophobic and paranoid. Sure, they had 10k years after that, but what significant events did they have. They remained largely unchallenged. Half their population slept it away in the emerald dream. There is nothing to say that they are somehow better then everyone because they had lots of years alone. People see the lived a long time and just assume they should be the badasses of wow.

    Secondly, Night elves are not acting any worse in Cata/Mop then they did in Warcraft III. Seriously, go back and play that game. Tyrande was rash and aggressive. She was always prone to rushing in headlong.

    Also, they are a more interesting race for all their failings (Sanderson's Second Law). Weakness make for interesting story. Tolkien's elves where to idealistic. If you had that kind of a race in WoW, it would not be interesting at all. They only work in Tolkien's writing because they are very peripheral to the story. They are not really a big part of the reader's journey. The Hobbits are much more interesting because they have lots of failings. Make an idealized, we are awesome, race to wow and it would appeal to a handful of people that like imagine themselves as the 'great and powerful.' For the rest, once you started looking at them, it would be boring as hell. Look at the wow races. The Draenei are arguably the closest we have to ideal culture. They have faults. But mostly they are strong, powerful, touched by the light, good guys to the core. Really all they have going for them is the corruption in their past (Eredar). Take away that and there is nothing really interesting about them. Look at the attitudes about the Alliance getting its hands dirty in MoP. People are exited. Seeing those flaws makes it more real. More interesting.

    Tolkien-esk elves in MoP would be bad.

  6. #26
    WoW is not Tolkien Online.

  7. #27
    Knaack doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Tolkien, nor does anything he has written deserve to be called warcraft cannon.

    Warcraft lore and storytelling was originally spectacular but Blizzard got lazy as they lined their pockets with money and hired some inept storyteller to start doing their work for them.

    Nightelfs went from being a great tribe of wise immortal warriors blessed by godlike beings into a bunch of inept tree hugging sissies that were little more than a mutation of a inferior race of savages.

    Hell Knaack is pretty much the sole reason I think the warcraft universe needs a reboot allowing blizzard to undo all the crap storytelling that has degraded the games lore into a cesspool of smelly crap.
    Last edited by skrump; 2013-02-15 at 06:37 PM.

  8. #28
    Personally I prefer every series to have it own different types of elves. Gives it a new type of life.

  9. #29
    thank GOD äh BLizzard they are not - I for my part prefer Elves elike they are in D&D.

  10. #30
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    thank GOD äh BLizzard they are not - I for my part prefer Elves elike they are in D&D.
    "Like they are in D&D"... D&D has about a crapzillion of elves, and subspecies of elves, care to be a bit more specific?

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Firstly, I don't understand why everyone thinks the night elves are old, so they must be the best at everything.
    No, they should be the best at what they were supposed to be the best at; the perfect warriors and masters of Nature.

    They had a major civil war involving demons and nearly destroyed the earth. Large portions of their population died.
    10000 years ago, and they've more than rebounded since.
    The remainder became somewhat xenophobic and paranoid.
    Xenophobic? Lol they aren't trolls. Paranoid, no, vigilant, yes. They've been preparing for the Legions return ever since. Their military was reformed and they were supposed to have tossed the daft, clueless nobles who saw military service as prestige with smart, competent strategists.

    Sure, they had 10k years after that, but what significant events did they have.
    War of the Satyr, War of the Shifting Sand, thousands of years of training and police action.
    They remained largely unchallenged. Half their population slept it away in the emerald dream. There is nothing to say that they are somehow better then everyone because they had lots of years alone.
    Seasoned veterans should be better than green conscripts in any capacity. Again, Grom called them the Perfect Warriors for their prowess. Where the fuck is that now? It's not fans saying they should be good, it's the bloody story that said they were good...

    People see the lived a long time and just assume they should be the badasses of wow.
    how is it any different from "I see big rippling muscles and therefore should be badasses (orcs) or I see angry vengeful zombies and they should be badasses (Forsaken)". Ya, immortal warriors of millennia martial training should be badasses, so too should werewolves, but they're not.

    Secondly, Night elves are not acting any worse in Cata/Mop then they did in Warcraft III. Seriously, go back and play that game. Tyrande was rash and aggressive. She was always prone to rushing in headlong.
    Tyrande's aggression has nothing to do with the issue. Aggressive doesn't mean stupid. Night Elves were fearless on account of their prowess and martial strength in battle gave them their fearlessness. They didn't just rush in to be slaughtered to slow down an advance, they'd take a lot of enemies out even if they were ultimately defeated. Tyrande wasn't brash in the scenario, she was fucking stupid. Night Elves *are* ambushers, they need no lesson taught from a damned human on how to set up an ambush.

    Also, they are a more interesting race for all their failings (Sanderson's Second Law). Weakness make for interesting story. Tolkien's elves where to idealistic. If you had that kind of a race in WoW, it would not be interesting at all.
    Night Elf weakness only serves to make the story for other races interesting (as a way to say, well at least we're not as pathetic as them, things could always be worse). It doesn't do shit for the Night Elves and certainly doesn't make them appeal at all to players. Their failing with respect to trusting nobility, ignoring arcane magic, and having a military based on epeen rather than skill was a lesson learned. That made them interesting as it improved them entirely as a race, and it's gone as of their immortality

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 06:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    Nightelfs went from being a great tribe of wise immortal warriors blessed by godlike beings into a bunch of inept tree hugging sissies that were little more than a mutation of a inferior race of savages.
    Pretty much this. The cdev has never done anywhere near as much damage to other player races as they have to Night Elves. It all started with Blizz forcing the mentality of "night elf = druid" instead of "night elf = warrior". Eff druids.
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2013-02-15 at 06:56 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Secondly, Night elves are not acting any worse in Cata/Mop then they did in Warcraft III. Seriously, go back and play that game. Tyrande was rash and aggressive. She was always prone to rushing in headlong.
    Being rash and aggressive doesn't equal being incompetent, and that's what Nelves were in Cata (I don't know about MoP, but if it didn't get any better, I can imagine what it's like). One could assume that a race with thousands of years of military experience would be able to smash any kind of attack on their own territory. Yet in Cata they barely defended (most of, not even the whole) Ashenvale while suffering heavy losses.

    In W3 they were a fierce race that would pre-emptively attack ANYONE coming to their forests and cutting down their trees. That's how we first see them. We also see them heavily outnumbered for the whole campaign (pretty much the only time we see nelves at an advantage is before Grom becomes corrupted), but they STILL hold against demons and the like, thanks to their experience and morale. How did they turn into incompetent pacifists they are in WoW?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Eh, Tolkien Elves are classic "We are so much above you puny mortals, so we don't care about you ahaha" High Elves. Night Elves are more like wood elves mixed with drow.
    not once did i ever get that impression of Tolkein elves. they may be the base model for elves, but you must appreciate that every popular fantasy series varies them, but i have never felt that in tolkein's world, his elves felt they were better than everyone else. It was easy to judge them so, as by their description and actions they demonstrated their worth and it was found greater than most.

    And whiles another commenter makes a valuable point in saying we must think of Night elves more as re-purposed drow - yet we must expect by the history and character blizzard described them by up to the cataclysm, very much resumbles that of Tolkein elves - and rightly you would expect them to be written with a similar grace which portrays the characteristics of long long lived people with great wisdom, valour and beauty - which is not the model they use for high elves in warcraft nor blood elves, who are neihter immortal, nor written to have achieved the calibre or valor and heroism that the night elves have. Great, have been the achievements of the night elves of Azeroth, that is without question. Flawless it has never been, but it has been great, very much like the Tolkein elves.

    so when they are presented, i expect Tyarnde to bear far more grace, wisdom and apitiude than she is shown to bear, and expect far more of their kin every time they are portrayed in Azeroth. I expect an ancient being to appear more like the wise Elrond is presented or the jamestic Glorfindel or Gil-galad. Event he less idealistic are portrayed well, like Fingor and similar who are shown not to be without flaws. It is clear that though similar to us, Elves are still a different people, there is much skill in their portrayal as their should be when you give them such a majestic past. IT is the way they are wrriten in showing great knowledge, wisdom and might that matches both their age and history that blizzard should note well to copy when writing stuff on the night elves.

    Night elves are altogether disappointing currently, and are not currently been written at all to match the character blizzard gave that race. which smacks of poor writing or ineptitude, or just plain carelessness.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 07:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    It'd be nice if Blizzard's storytellers just flat out said "the reason Night Elves suck now is because they've lost their Immortality and it's rendered them senile, weak, demented and generally useless".
    at least that way we'd have a reason for their very poor and diminished actions. not that it would be good, or that i would enjoy it, but at least it will give an explanation to why post cataclysm night elves seem altogether a completely different species to pre-cataclysm night elves.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 08:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    One can hope they get the immortality thing back and they go back to the older elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    That won't happen.
    in comiserating their current awful plight, I have actually asked myself this question also. We make an assumption, albeit one that is not without merit, that crappy night elves are an intentional plot device that is rooted in the loss of their immortaility rather than bad writing.

    it is not an unfair assumption, but if it were so it is also bad writing, but better for having that explanation than not having it all. still, it would be a good plot device to give them their immortality back in some incredible turn of events and have them return to the pre-cata version of themselves we all much preferred.

    I have thought about this and ask why not? cliched it may be, it is certainly no worse than the character assassination that race is currently under going whcih frankly eptisomises very bad writing, this would be better if rather overuused.

    2. I have considered it and concluded, that having night elves immortal need not affect gameplay balance at all, afterall, when they were previously immortal, they could still die and you need not change any racials nor starting stats in-game as regaining their immportaitly will not mean losing shadowmeld or nature resistance or 1% dodge. And they were very much immortal in warcraft 3 and very much playable. Restroing their immortality could give them a better excuse to drastically change the behaviour of this race.

    But i do conclude it is NOT necessary to do so, neither should it be. With immortatilty or without it, as it stands in the lore, night elves are very old and very wise and need to behave in a way that befits this. Losing their immortaity has never been said to make them all of a sudden forget 10,000+ years of valor, experience, or skill either. Perhaps some physical advantages are lost - like high resistance/immunity to sickeness, temperature variations and magical resistance from nordrassil being depleted, but that shouldn't affect knowledge, wisdom, courage, nor strength and skill.

    they still have their magics, they are still somehow connected to the well because they are still 7ft+ in height meaning they retain the benefit of larger stature and enhanced intelligence they gained from the well when they originally came to be and their dark purpley skin hues too, not to mention still having glowy eyes pointing to a latent power still being behind those pointy ears. For these reasons and many more, loss of immortatilty would be a poor explanation to explain their current crappiness, but at least it would be an explanation.

    I therefore conclude the only remedy is better and more fitting writing. Write them to fit the character attributed to them.. it is stupid to change that now, inconsistent and un popular too, doesn't make sense to me and nothing in the plot nor lore justifies that change, certainly not losing immortality. Furthermore it is un-necessary to re-write the vision of that race, i see no harm in having at least run impeccably race with high grace/wisdom/knowledge and moral rectitude in a game with so many races, there was othing wrong in short with them continuing to be the kind of night elves that were introduced in warcraft 3. Sure stuff happens, but no need to remake them into senile, inept lot at all. And this is what is most disappointing. The fact that either they feel they need to change this or that they are now being ritten this way. We've long debated as to why, with no clear explanation from them. Is it becuase they're in the allinace? is it because htey're playable? was it necessary to make them so crappy because they're playable? no! then why do it? A plot device to show them come back in strength and valor later? might be the only course of action fans might forgive, but for once htey'd like to play night elves that are respectable rather than wait till warcraft is no longer playable to have night elves return to their former stature.

    But if the loss of immortatilty is the source of this poor portrayal in the lore, then the writers are even worse than i thoguht, becuase by their own devices this is not clearly shown. they have not clearly shown that losing immortatily makes you stupid, seniile, forgetful inexperienced and incompetent which is excatly how they've written night elves currently.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-02-15 at 08:35 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I love how people say this yet its not supported at all in lore.
    Maiev is not acting alone. Fandral was not acting alone. Druids of Flame happened for a reason.

  15. #35
    I expected night elves to be more like the wood elves of Mirkwood. The ones that didn't follow Galadriel west but remained behind. High elves would be more like those of Rivendell
    Last edited by luccadeo; 2013-02-15 at 08:44 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    Night Elves are blizzard's take on the concept of Dark Elves or Drow from DND. Of course DND is loosely based on the works of Tolkein. It was mentioned in the art book for the CE edition of WCIII.

    Probably why woman, esp. the Priestessess of Elune are such highly revered in Night Elf culture. Woman in Drow culture are the dominant ones.
    which is based on Tolkein elves' great adoration and reverence for Elbereth, whom they do not worship but greatly revere. In making the transition to DnD, then warcraft, the elves there now worship her as well as revere and call upon her name to do spells and great acts of might.

    not sure why some are despising Tolkein so, seeing that he is the source and model of the entire fantasy genre. and most of the comments about his elves i have read seem either unfair or grossly inaccurate ..but then i very much doubt most of those who have commented have read his works recently and I conclude they probably only watched the films, and that a long time ago, or they would find the Elves of tolkein with much more merit than they give them.

    I hope people do appreciate that I am not asking for night elves to be carbon copies of Tolkein elves, even though they are the one group in Azeroth that resembles Tolkein's elves the closest. I would say in warcraft, dwarves and night elves are the only two races that bear close resemblance to Tolkein's races, and i see nothing wrong with that seeing warcraft has so many races, and I have nothing but admiration for Tolkein's Elves and Dwarves.

    But I am pointing out that if they were writing well, they would write the night elves in warcraft in a way that matches the history that blizzard gave them, and the portrayal would be a lot more like how tolkein portrays people like Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel and co for when you read about them in his books, you believe they are thousands of years old, with the sort of knowledge and wisdom that comes with such age. You also believe they did all those amazing acts that you are told off. This is not the case of the post-cataclysm night elves. The way night evles are currently portrayed, they don't appear as wise at all, nor that they've lived long, and it seems ridiculous that it was the same group that did anything they are recorded to have done before cataclysm, I woudln't believe it.

    Tyrande in wolfheart or MoP does not seem to be the same Tyrande of warcraft 3. Conclusion is bad writing and bad voice acting, albeit it it is the same writers and voice actors of before, which means they're not giving this proper attention and it is ruining the experience for us who loved that sort of thing

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 09:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Firstly, I don't understand why everyone thinks the night elves are old, so they must be the best at everything.
    it's not that they are expected to be the best at everything, but it is expected that if you have real wisdom, experience from long years, and have achieved some incredible feats like twice beating the legion, maksing an entire continent from both natural and dimensional eyes, ceasilly vigiled an entire planet for 10,00 years foiled some major plots like the satyr rising, war of the sifting sands, foiled beings like the old gods, assited mighty immortals like Cenarius, Ysera the dreamer and her dragonflight in guiding the evolution of the world. Created an empire that has been un matched in beauty , splendour and power , and left such ideals in pursuit of yet higher once of protecting and guarding a world and carrying out that task successfully, and despite your best efforts, the demons and freaded beings return and you arise and defeat them again, without hesitation sacrificing part of your own very essence to do so. I'm sorry, after living that long, anddoing such deeds and more, I expect that you don't appear quite so bumbling and inept as the night elves do in the Azshara quest lines nor the ashenvale ones, nor in fact the amjority of the quest lines in cataclysm with the exception of Darkshore and possibly Ferelas. Nor do i expect people like Tyrande and others to be making decisions like you read them do in Wolfheart and in the trials of hte high king. It doesn't add up at all. I expect them to come off more like how you read Elrond comes off in Lord of the Rings, or Gil-galad or Glorfindel and Galadriel than i do Tyrande in wolfheart or MoP or the majority of the night elves in cataclysm.

    It's not that we expect them to do everything and be beter than everyone else, but you ecxpect a certain gravitas to match the history you've given them, bear in mind that many individuals currently amongst the night elvs have been participants of those previous struggles. And you certainly expect their enemies to be writtne to afford them the sort of respect Grom Hellscream gives them in Warcraft 3, than how the Orc NPCs refer to them in cataclysm.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Also, they are a more interesting race for all their failings (Sanderson's Second Law). Weakness make for interesting story. Tolkien's elves where to idealistic. If you had that kind of a race in WoW, it would not be interesting at all. They only work in Tolkien's writing because they are very peripheral to the story. They are not really a big part of the reader's journey. The Hobbits are much more interesting because they have lots of failings. Make an idealized, we are awesome, race to wow and it would appeal to a handful of people that like imagine themselves as the 'great and powerful.' For the rest, once you started looking at them, it would be boring as hell. Look at the wow races. The Draenei are arguably the closest we have to ideal culture. They have faults. But mostly they are strong, powerful, touched by the light, good guys to the core. Really all they have going for them is the corruption in their past (Eredar). Take away that and there is nothing really interesting about them. Look at the attitudes about the Alliance getting its hands dirty in MoP. People are exited. Seeing those flaws makes it more real. More interesting.

    Tolkien-esk elves in MoP would be bad.
    whiles i would leave my opinion on Sanderson law to another occasion, and my view on valour. i would point out that great virtue and courage do not have to be boring and un-interesting. and if written well can be every bit as engaging. perhaps it is popular culture that is at afult for fostering in the minds of the young that such are unrealistic and boring because most writers themselves having little experience with the truly brave and very wise do not know how to write them well in their films and books and thus they come off as rather boring and unrelatable. Look how Knaak butchers great characters, it's a typical thing. villains are written much better by many of tese people becuase they relate to them better and they understand them better. Yet, for anyone who is well read over the century and just does not restrict himself to reading history via wikipedia or only history books written after the 1960s as recommended by the American education standard will find perhaps a far better examples littered across time that would make the likes of Sanderson's second law less wise than it appears.

    And whiles I agree with you that the nature of the Elves in Tolkein's books works well because they are peripheral, I would point out that warcraft 3 aside, this is exactly what night elves, gnomes, worgen, draenei and dwarves really are and have shown to be. So on that argument alone, it is more of a reason to write them up rather than down.

    I did not give the night elves their history or construct it so, i did not make them near-immortal incredibly long lived beings, i did not write them to have committed many valiant acts to repair their initial folly and arrogance, neither did i design them to be a mighty host worthy of song and showing great valour, wisdom and might. you question the way i describe them, but that is how blizzard has written them. Why should i criticise blizzard for writing them so? I will not, not every race has to be dark, and extremely flawed with the rare exceptions, given that there are plenty of those in warcraft already, it is a good to have a different kind or at least ones such as the night elves, many of us like that about them, or should I say liked that about them.

    What we object to is clear, how they are written now does not match and is not consistent with what their past is shown to be and what the nature, calibre and character of their race was presented as. It makes no sense to us except to say it's jsut been written poorly and we're calling it out for what it is, fix it, cos it's bad.

    by continuing such poor visualisations, you only end up frustrating your fans and alientating them, they lose respect for you and lose interest in what you have to say cause it's all rather coming off as b/s. Maybe fine for a 14 year old, but many of us may have started following warcraft at that age, but we've likely since had an education, and read a bit wider a field, and we desire and expect a higher standard, especially when to us it seems when it comes to this matter of night elvs, the former was much better than the latter.

    yes we expect more from a team of writers, well i do, and whiles Tolkein may be something else, i don't htink i am unreasonable in unfairly dissatisified with the current portrayal of night elves.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 09:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    Knaack doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Tolkien, nor does anything he has written deserve to be called warcraft cannon.

    Warcraft lore and storytelling was originally spectacular but Blizzard got lazy as they lined their pockets with money and hired some inept storyteller to start doing their work for them.

    Nightelfs went from being a great tribe of wise immortal warriors blessed by godlike beings into a bunch of inept tree hugging sissies that were little more than a mutation of a inferior race of savages.

    Hell Knaack is pretty much the sole reason I think the warcraft universe needs a reboot allowing blizzard to undo all the crap storytelling that has degraded the games lore into a cesspool of smelly crap.
    i'm more inclined to believe this than anything else.

    it did seem that they hired crappy storytellers instead of do the work themselves. Because if you liked alot of their story telling up to a certain point and it changed, then you read the credits and find out oh, someone else is now telling the story, it explains why it isn't so good anymore.

    not to say there aren't good stories in wow, there are, just not when it comes to night elves, which either means the new storytellers have no interest in them whatsoever, or the ones that are writing about them are really bad.

    I have had a suspicion, that if Metzen himself were writing the quest storylines, we would not be having this sort of discussion about them. it is clear that the person who wrote the night elves in much of warcraft 3 and beyond, is not the same person who wrote their tale in the majority of the cataclsym zones and in the books. And it just shows how bad the new writers about them are, because the guys who wrote the rpg lore book who incidentally were in their "tweens" (20s) at the time 10 years ago, seemed to do a much better job in more accurately portraying the night elves than the hired storytellers.

    maybe tha'ts why no one wants to direct the warcraft movie, because the writing is just plain crap, when they delve into warcraft lore in game they go.. no thank you, it's ot about the money, but this is crap.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-02-15 at 08:56 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbodymoman View Post
    Being rash and aggressive doesn't equal being incompetent, and that's what Nelves were in Cata (I don't know about MoP, but if it didn't get any better, I can imagine what it's like). One could assume that a race with thousands of years of military experience would be able to smash any kind of attack on their own territory. Yet in Cata they barely defended (most of, not even the whole) Ashenvale while suffering heavy losses.

    In W3 they were a fierce race that would pre-emptively attack ANYONE coming to their forests and cutting down their trees. That's how we first see them. We also see them heavily outnumbered for the whole campaign (pretty much the only time we see nelves at an advantage is before Grom becomes corrupted), but they STILL hold against demons and the like, thanks to their experience and morale. How did they turn into incompetent pacifists they are in WoW?
    how? storytellers who don't know their lore. it's the problem with hired help. Unless they have a passion, they won't bother. It is likely the new guys who came in were passionate about warcraft, but not about night elves. Probably about forsaken and orcs so they did their due diligence there and with the horde races. It's clear they're not picking up anything about night elves or they won't give us this shit we're experiencing. It could be also that blizzard specifically hired to boost the horde storytelling in an effort to make the side more appealing, and therefore were hiring those who had the passion for horde races - which is why we see much better writing when it comes to Orcs, blood elves, forsaken etc, than we do night elves, worgen and draenei.

    p.s. Constellation : I love you. I read every response you made to DeLos, and spot on. At least some people here have common sense. don't you stop posting, lest the forum is ruled by idiots like DeLos - without peeps with common sense to keep em in check.
    Last edited by Mace; 2013-02-15 at 09:44 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    I for one am grateful that Warcraft elves aren't like Tolkiens. Besides Tolkien is overrated as it is, now don't get me wrong he did a massive feat in creating what he did, but I'm sick of how his elves are portrayed. It's the faults that make something interesting.
    And no matter how you spin it, you can't write mutated troll offshoot to be as "valorous etc" as you describe the Tolkien elves. I love how Night Elves despite having had great altruistic moments and individuals, is still just a bigoted faction as a whole.


    you need to read more tolkien, his elves are far from perfect.

  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Pancaspe's Avatar
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    Even in Tolkien there were different types of Elves. The WOW Night Elves are more like the Wood Elves that Bilbo escaped from.
    @Ghostcrawler:Some advice: [My pet issue] is why there were sub losses is one of the weaker arguments players use. Players don't have that data.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    Even in Tolkien there were different types of Elves. The WOW Night Elves are more like the Wood Elves that Bilbo escaped from.
    no friend, they're far more like the "high" elves, the only thing they share in common with the wood elves is that they live in forests, and even in that they share more with the Lorien elves in that regard than the northern mirkwood elves led by Thandruil. Their character and history is more closer to the general history and feats of the high folk. Which they share many traits with but are also different enough.

    The similarity with the high elves of Tolkein is this: both share an amazing past where they have achieved great deeds of valor in quantity un matched yet by others. Both are portrayed as extremely long lived still having amongst them members who have seen and partaking in even the earliest of the great conflicts.

    both are certainly flawed, often a common mistake made by tolkein elf-haters which shows their ignorance, perhpas if they read tolkein they'd find out his elves were certainly not flawless and may actually like tham. - but i sense such haters just hate the idea of anything being perfect or near perfect because they start thinking of all the badly written mary sue characters people like Knaak create rather than the well construted ones the likes of peple like Tolkein write and thus are unfairly bashful of them.

    So in cocnclusion, when you write about such elves, you expect the night elves you meet to come off a bit more like Elrond and Glorfindel , or Legolas than you do the bumbling Tyrande of wolfheart and beyond. [yes knaak doesn't write tyrande too well either in Stormrage but I am hesitant to be overly critical of a man who is not my peer]

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