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  1. #41
    I always think the Blood Elves are more like the Tolkien Elves.

    Night elves are a lot more primal and a part of nature, more secretive and I would say a lot more violent too.

    Tyrande and the Malfurasissy and the other druids always present the NE badly imo. NE in WC3 always seemed more the silent, ruthless hunters that could be hiding in the trees around you than the peaceful hippys they come across as now.

  2. #42
    Mechagnome Sarthan's Avatar
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    Night Elves are one of the main reasons Azeroth has so many problems. I mean they almost caused the planet to explode when the Well of Eternity blew up.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Well_of_Eternity

  3. #43
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    I see the fact that night elves think they're better is put as a flaw. And in a way it is, but take it from the point of a night elf. They're like your grandparents, they have done stuff in life and have some experience. And then comes a child (most other races) and tells them fel magic is good. And they tell them, no it's not, yet the child doesn't listen so they say "ok, you'll see I'm right when you burn yourself". Yes, to the child it looks like the grandparent thinks he's better then him in a way, but the idea is that the night elves say these stuff because they honestly think they're right and want to help. It's the way in which they try to help that makes them seem full of themselves when they're not.

    As for faults, night elves do have faults. They do not belive in those that did wrong changing for one. Think about it. Illidan, imprisoned for life, Highbourne, first watched and then banished (and remember even after they re-met them as blood elves the night elves warned the alliance against them), orcs, they thought they are savage fel beasts and their perception hasn't changed much, the Shatterspear trolls, one attack and they wiped them out... makes you wonder, were there more tribes night elves wiped out for good?
    So here's their second fault, they try to erase some parts of history they dislike. The Shatterspear trolls, killed, their knowledge destroyed etc, the mage issue, all information on arcane magic removed (have you seen Darnassus? there's no library there), Illidan, locked away in a cave somewhere to never be heard about etc.

    Night elves have faults. But the way they're been portrayed since Cataclysm... they don't have anything good anymore. I mean think about it, at what to night elves excel now?
    Are they good fighters? no.
    Are they good archers? so and so.
    Are they wise? no.
    Maybe they're the best druids? no, as hamuul has a bigger role and Cenarius is back.
    Best priests? no, as now the devs keep talking about Elune being a naaru so that would make night elves idiots since they worshiped a naaru as a god.
    maybe they're the oldest, having the experience of ages? not anymore with draenei.
    savage? lol no.
    Strong women as opposed to all other races where either men are strong or there's equality? No, Tyrande is now Malfurion's candy wife. Or no, she's Varian's stupid buddy she takes around to make himself feel better about his tactics.
    Maybe they're good ambushers, guerilla fighters, trap layers, have a connection with several creatures, good tacticians, experimented, wise, strong, smart, many, giants, unique, etc? no.


    So what are night elves good at since Cataclysm? Well... ummm... they do some druidic stuff and... that's it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    Night Elves are one of the main reasons Azeroth has so many problems. I mean they almost caused the planet to explode when the Well of Eternity blew up.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Well_of_Eternity
    No, those were the today's blood elves. Since the Highbourne that helped Azshara mutated into high elves which then became blood elves. And to add proof to this, no night elf ever tried to use the Well under Nordrassil to summon more demons. Kael'thas and his ilk used the Sunwell to try and summon Kil'jaden.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    Night Elves are one of the main reasons Azeroth has so many problems. I mean they almost caused the planet to explode when the Well of Eternity blew up.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Well_of_Eternity
    what are you trying to say? That night elves aren't good? that night elves should deserve our scorn? That night elves aren't perfect? No one ever thought they were or desired them to be. The history told, well that's a plot device and it is a good story, the night elves don't come off as a problem but rather it shows their pedigree in how they responded to the events told. Blizzard could easily have written them to go underground after the sundering and get all drow like and become evil servitors of the legion for their role in it etc, but instead they chose to make them valourous, with integrity, great resolve, wisdom, intelligence and prowress.

    They're shown as fierce, cunning, and able to judge a situation extremely accurately and thus succeed, they also shwn to be wise and very perceptive as would befit intelligent and long lived races.. it's just how they are written. Then all of a sudden when we have some light on them in cataclysm they are shown to be carry or display none of those traits. Makes you wonder, we dealing with the same people?
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-02-15 at 11:05 PM.

  5. #45
    Malfurion decided to end NE's immortality long ago at the battle of mt.Hyjal so don't talk about blessed immortality race BS anymore. What Mal said to Tyrande in "WC3" sum up what's wrong about NE people in general(including Tyrande) and most NE's fans here pretty well.

    "If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already." and this quote comes from the night elf who is the wisest,fiercest in battle,strongest in Azeroth. This guy is the very reason of almost all NE's great achievements not your female warrior shits.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-02-16 at 01:36 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    I for one am grateful that Warcraft elves aren't like Tolkiens. Besides Tolkien is overrated as it is, now don't get me wrong he did a massive feat in creating what he did, but I'm sick of how his elves are portrayed. It's the faults that make something interesting.
    And no matter how you spin it, you can't write mutated troll offshoot to be as "valorous etc" as you describe the Tolkien elves. I love how Night Elves despite having had great altruistic moments and individuals, is still just a bigoted faction as a whole.
    I don't think you have read much of Tolkien's work involving elves then. Most of the woes of Middle-Earth came from the elves mistakes. The One Ring included. So, they were far from ethically perfect.

    What seems to annoy the op, and is something that annoys me as well is that it seems Blizzard was inspired by Tolkien's work in creating their elves, and have created some things of beauty concerning them. But mostly, before World of WarCraft. In fact, other than a handful of quests, and some of the music and environments, it's like all the magic they instilled unto them in the past has vanished. And in its place the night elves get a mutated-from-trolls ancestry, tree-hugging jokes, get faded in the background, and generally treated so poorly, rarely taking the spotlight, and when they do they do it with bad-quality writing.

  7. #47
    I played WC3 before knowing anything about Lord of the Rings so the Night elves were basically like a hippie or amazon(represented mostly by females) type of elves. Age doesnt always translate to being wise just experienced and since most of the history of Night Elves is very isolated from most of the world, being introduced to a huge universe with many new races would make that experience worth less. Add to that the fact they arent immortal anymore. Thats a pretty big change that would affect culture and behavior. Also not all Night Elves are 10,000 years old.
    Last edited by Prokne; 2013-02-16 at 02:16 AM.

  8. #48
    Actually the more I think, the more various WoW elves can be traced back to Silmarillion. Sure, it's not clear and cut, but archetypes is there.

  9. #49
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Malfurion decided to end NE's immortality long ago at the battle of mt.Hyjal so don't talk about blessed immortality race BS anymore. What Mal said to Tyrande in "WC3" sum up what's wrong about NE people in general(including Tyrande) and most NE's fans here pretty well.

    "If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already." and this quote comes from the night elf who is the wisest,fiercest in battle,strongest in Azeroth. This guy is the very reason of almost all NE's great achievements not your female warrior shits.
    You don't say!
    What was he doing while Tyrande was fighting satyrs and Legion remnants for 10 000 years? Sleeping.
    What was he doing while the War of the Shifting Sands was taking place? Sleeping.
    What was he doing when orcs were killing Cenarius? Sleeping.
    What was he doing when the Legion finally attacked? Sleeping, he needed Tyrande to save his ass.

  10. #50
    To Blizzard, warcraft is Humans versus Orcs. Every enemy and other race are there to facilitate those two races being the best. If they have to make Tyrande a house wife to make Varian look good, they will. I mean, last three expansions, Tirion, a human, helped us beat The Lich King. Cataclysm we "required" Thrall's, an orc, help in order to beat Death Wing. Garrosh will likely involve Thrall and Varian, probably Jaina as well.

    I highly doubt any race outside of Humans and Orcs will be really awesome again. For all they try to make other race look goodish at times, they really only care about boring humans and fat head orcs.

  11. #51
    Of course any game or fantasy stories of today owes everything to the world of Tolkien, including the Warcraft universe of course. On the subject of the Elves is very simple:

    All the elves matter, as they are all different in their own way, so in any RPG that worth its salt there is at least three elven races or three types of elves:

    - The forest elves who love nature and live isolated in their woods --[in WoW]--> The Night Elves
    - The mystical and honorable elves, allies of humans and who live in large cities (tolkien elves) --[in WoW]--> The High Elves
    - The elves that believe themselves superior to other races and have no scruples to achieve their ends --[in WoW]--> The Blood Elves


  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post

    - The forest elves who love nature and live isolated in their woods --[in WoW]--> The Night Elves
    - The mystical and honorable elves, allies of humans and who live in large cities (tolkien elves) --[in WoW]--> The High Elves
    - The elves that believe themselves superior to other races and have no scruples to achieve their ends --[in WoW]--> The Blood Elves
    Sindarr
    Vanyar
    Noldor

    =)

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 05:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    You don't say!
    What was he doing while Tyrande was fighting satyrs and Legion remnants for 10 000 years? Sleeping.
    Nope. At least read War of the Ancients wiki entry.

  13. #53
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    This is what could have been...



    This is what is...



    /facedesk..

  14. #54
    LOTR Online is another game.

  15. #55
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Trassk, actually that photo is not true, night elves can't even have black hair unless they're male death knights. The night elf in there looks somewhat acceptable compared to some specimens we got.

    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    Nope. At least read War of the Ancients wiki entry.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/War_of_the_ancients

    It says nothing of what Malfurion did after the war or maybe I just can't find it.

    I found this on high elves:
    "They suffered from magical withdrawal, and 7,300 years before the invasion of the Horde through the Dark Portal, they spoke against Malfurion Stormrage and the Druids.

    Dath'Remar Sunstrider, the leader of this movement, declared the druids cowards for refusing to wield the arcane. Malfurion and the druids warned the Highborne that any use of magic would be punishable by death. Yet, in an attempt to protest the druid’s law, Dath'Remar and his followers unleashed a terrible magical storm upon Ashenvale. "

    but it says nothing about him fighting the satyrs and the leftover Legion forces.

    Though I then went to Malfurion's page, and found you were right and he did help in the war of the satyr. But it was all in comics.
    "While experimenting with the druids' shape-shifting abilities, Malfurion discovered the lupine Pack Form. However, its feral nature was far too much for him to control, and Malfurion lost himself to rage, even going so far as to attack Cenarius. The demigod healed Malfurion's anger by forcing him to slumber beneath the great tree Daral'nir, within the Emerald Dream. From that point, Malfurion banned all of his students from using the Pack Form, but despite his efforts a sect calling themselves the Druids of the Pack appeared.

    Some years after the War of the Ancients, the Satyrs gathered the few demons that remained and engaged in a war across Ashenvale. Ralaar Fangfire fought for their shan'do to lift the ban on the Pack Form, but Malfurion was adamant, even when Arvell died because he promised he would not use the transformation.

    Using a scythe crafted from a fang of Goldrinn and a staff blessed by Elune, the druids who followed Ralaar eventually became the first Worgen in an attempt to control the Pack Form and prove Malfurion wrong about its savagery. However, while the Worgen proved effective weapons against the Satyrs, they would often harm allies in their savage fights.

    Malfurion and Cenarius' son Remulos called the druids who did not follow Ralaar - now called Alpha Prime - to a meeting in the Moonglade. They set guidelines for all future druids to follow and decided on actions to take against the Worgen, forming the Cenarion Circle. The priestess Belrysa Starbreeze, a friend of Ralaar and the mate of the deceased Arvell, interrupted the meeting and brought the Scythe of Elune to Malfurion.

    Meeting Alpha Prime and his followers in a field of [Peacebloom], Malfurion mournfully used the Scythe of Elune to seal the Worgen away in the Emerald Dream, forcing them beneath Daral'nir. "

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    Actually the more I think, the more various WoW elves can be traced back to Silmarillion. Sure, it's not clear and cut, but archetypes is there.
    it is very much there. the way i read it, at first it was the high elves that were the silmarillion elves archetype, from warcraft 2, but in warcraft 3, a lot of elven lore was fleshed out, this is when we found out what the high elves really were and the night ellves were introduced in the same story and much of their history given then, followed by their exploits in warcraft 3 - where they resembled the archetype of the silmarrillion elves more so than the high elves.

    they are not identical, it's a different storoy, yes, night elves do have that aspect of them that is a twist on drow elves, but then drow elves are a twist on moriquendi elves of tolkein's universe anyway. and yes you have that amazon warrior thing to them as well, but.. fierce in battle they might be, savages they are not.

    in fact they resemble the silmarrilion elves in character, achievements, personailty, the only thing is that night elves are dark/purpleskinned, dark rather than fair - where fair means light skinned. but night elves are quite fair if you take fair to mean beautiful or with moral rectitude.

    the high elves' journey is very similar to that of the silmarion elves that left valar to go back to middle earth, but obviously different, in that Kalimdor was no valar, and furthermore, the silmariolion elves had not committed the same degree of grevious sin that the high elves had committed and were banishded for, but they did commit a sin.

    in a sense the night elves to me seemed more like the elves of valar. but the siilarity to Tolkein elves is not identical, it is just that both have achieved monumental feats of courage, valor, both are quite long lived /immortal - though we find the night elves losing their immortality at the end of warcraft 3. we also find both being described as very wise, knowledgeable, and pretty much incredible in battle, though Tolkein puts it so much better than Richard Knaak.

    Since then though , blizzard have almost compltely re-written as much as they can about night elf history without chanigng the actual events that they said happened, perhpas to make them more different than tolkein evles. Don't know why, maybe they want the high elves to assume that role again, but then i was quite fine with the high elves beeing a different type of elf, and the blood elves different yet again, the night elves being the tolkein like elves which i thoughtwas as good a twist as not making the orcs stupid, mindless brutes but rather fierce, spiritual and cunning warrior race built about a strong culture of honour. it bucked the trend which always had the beautiful white elves as the tolkein--esque cast and the orcs as the stupid evil brutes, and the dark elves as the evil sinister bunch.

    i found their attempts to re-write the night elves disappointing, basically vertyhing that has come since wow just seems a lot less glamorous to the stuff before, and i have not seen one good reason for it, there is no shame in the night elves of wow being exactly lik e the warcraft 3 night elves even if that made them much closer to the tolkein model, no one actually likes the new night elves. Altogether and inferior work that annoys rather than adds to the story becuase it is so ridiculous and unbelievable.

    It led me to the conclusion that perhhaps the new writers don't know how to portray long lived beings with vast experience, knowledge and an awesome martial prowress, so when I was reading Lord of the rings again, i felt it was justifiable to make a topic to point out, that well,see what tolkein did with Elrond and the high elves of middle earth? that is what beings who have lived for thousands of years and saved the world a number of times, full of wisdom , kowledge and quite the fighters should actually come off like. They should not come off like how our dear Tyrande is been written in wolfheart or in MoP, or the night elves are seen in the majority of the kalimdor zones you encounter them.

    this enitre post is a.. hey.. look how tolkein describes and writes the behaviour of beings that are many thousands of years old and still about. - you're to look at their character btw, not the details of the story. Look at how Tolkkein writes Elrond's speech and responses, or Glorfindels, look how though the elves are no longer playing a major role in the conflict and are diminishing, they are not useless or weak or inept, they just have different priorities now, which to understand you would have to read the other works. Elves played a mjaor role in the first and second ages.

    anyway my point is, they should be wrtitten more like how Elrond, Galadriel, GAndalf, Sauron, Saruman, Glorfindel, Gilgalad etc are written like, not like how Tyrande is just fumbling infront of Varian, or how night elves appear more like insect pests to the orcs and goblins of northern kalimdor in the cataclysm quest chains.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 11:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Of course any game or fantasy stories of today owes everything to the world of Tolkien, including the Warcraft universe of course. On the subject of the Elves is very simple:

    All the elves matter, as they are all different in their own way, so in any RPG that worth its salt there is at least three elven races or three types of elves:

    - The forest elves who love nature and live isolated in their woods --[in WoW]--> The Night Elves
    - The mystical and honorable elves, allies of humans and who live in large cities (tolkien elves) --[in WoW]--> The High Elves
    - The elves that believe themselves superior to other races and have no scruples to achieve their ends --[in WoW]--> The Blood Elves
    actually, i think people automaitcally go, night elves love nature, trees and liv e in forests therefore = forest elves. And what forest elves? forest elves from tolkein ofc, and when you look at the forest elves, their leaders were Elves from valar, and a love of nature and living in forests is where their similarity ends, in fact, looking at the night elves and their history, their character prior to cataclysm ofc, their bearing is a lot more like Elves from Valar who fight in the war at the end of the first age and the second age. In the second age war, they team up with the men of numenore, who to be honest are kind of half elvish anyway - they have more in common with the exploits of the night elves than they do with the warcraft high elves.

    as i said earlier, when night elves were introduced, they were far more like the tolkein elves of valor than the high elves were. And night elves are very mystical too, not as magical as high elves, but then tolkein's elves are not highi maigc users either, their magic is more on the subtle more natural side resembling night elves than it is the high powered arcane stuff of fireballs, arcane bombs and transdimensional portals. Their magic comes out more the night elf way, enhancing thier martial prowress, bourne of virtue and calling on Elbereth, Eru, great inspiration and deep knowledge of the natural order of things to be able to make things like the ring. and when you see the few times magic is employed, elrond conjures up a flood to drown the black riders, you hear about elvish bread which is almost magical , naturally enhanced food, they are enhhance nature , enhance natural abiltiies, from a spiritual dimension to a phsyical one through vast knowledge of the natural world and it's inner workings rather than the typical magic of the warcraft high elve or sorceros of other fantasy genres,

    making the night elves a lot more similar to them - i mean immortality was the biggest clue, having lived for 1000s of years, some of tolkein's elves like Galadria have lived over 10,000 years, and there are those older still on Valar. they are diminishing on middle earth now, kinda like the night elves are but they are still themselves, quite formidable when aroused, but not super saiyan like, when you read the lord of the rings, the elves are not super beings, tehy seem natural, yet very glorious, they don't come off as mary sue's at all, elrond and Galadrial are quite frank in taht they cannot withstand Sauron, and Sruman now turning against them is a grevious blow they cannot withstand alone for long. Yet you know they are still formidable when you read how he describes them when they come in contact with the black riders, and they are very wise and certianly you see how well age and wisdom lends aid to the cause of middle earth when Elrond leads the council of Elrond.. i mean that is the sort of way you expect night elves to come off.

    readlly, go read it again, if you're gonna make beings thousands of years old, and describe them the way you have in warcraft 3 and your lore books, well, you expect a more Elrond/Galadrial/Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron/Glorfindel calibre of bearing and behaviour, not bumbling Tyrande.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    I found this on high elves:
    "They suffered from magical withdrawal, and 7,300 years before the invasion of the Horde through the Dark Portal, they spoke against Malfurion Stormrage and the Druids.

    Dath'Remar Sunstrider, the leader of this movement, declared the druids cowards for refusing to wield the arcane."
    and funnily there are players who on reading this, actually believe the night elves to be cowards, failing to see the strength of their wisdom in refusing to use a source of power that so easily corrupts them but also would undoubtedly lure the legion to Azeroth again. It was incredible strength of character not to resort to the arcane, - and it may have appeared like cowardice to some, especially a person quite likely addicted to the thing who'd be less inclined to see the wisdom of that course of action.

    There is a whole debate on whether Darth'remar was right or he was wrong. Suffice it to say i'm of the opinion the night elves chose wisely, for what they achieved afterwards far outstripped their achievements as a global arcane empire. Though they no longer dwelt in massive urban centers with the a roman-esque or British Empire type rule .. they evolved beyond that, growing to a level of wisdom that saw beyond the futility of such things to the far more important business of protecting others. In so doing they proved and showed quality and wisdom, giving up borders, claims to lands and recognizing that the land belongs to all. They refused to build new cities or anything like that, thing s like money and wealth, had little value anymore, they had evolved beyond that.

    you know why they guarded Ashenvale so tightly and the forest border to the north right? not because it was their land and they were protecting it, no, it was to ensure none of the other races came anywhere near the world tree and the secret that dwelt at it's base. So that none will learn the use of magic like the Elves did and so call the burning legion. Why did they establish Darnassus? it is largely because they became playable and it was cool to have a city the alliance race needed one. but it comes off the vision of one Elf, Fandral Staghelm, interim leader of the Cenarion Circle, who grew the world tree in an attempt to restore the night elves immortality and who had a different philosophy to that which they had lived by for 10,000 years, like other druids, Fandral would have spent large portions of his immortal life asleep, awake during this period, and unknown to others, quite mad by the poison of the old gods, he was the biggest advocate of night elves returning to their pre-sundering dominance, the reason being the young races had now learnt magic, night elves could no longer continue like how they had under the night vigil, they needed to guide the new races by leading them. Something only night elves were properly equipped to do given their superior knowledge, wisdom and mastery - afterall no other race had come close to anything the night elves had achieved, both pre sundering and post sundering, his arrogance may have been understandable by other night elves and likely not viewed so by then, but certainly to others and certainly to malfurion they were exactly that.

    You have to realize that the story is written such that Fandral is an important and influential figure and no one suspects his true motives or agenda and that he has been corrupted in quite a different way. Nigth elves have lived an increidbly long time without moral corruption, showing a purity of spirt and valor that has long since many times over made up for the arrogance that led to the events that brought the legion teh first time round. They would not bleieve or find it easy to see that Fandral was quite out of his mind. Distraought by yet again great losses in another titanic struggle against the legion, where there forces and power again bore teh brunt of the effect, they lost far more than any other group and gave valiantly, - they find themselves in a position none living have ever found themselves in, no longer immortal, was that even possible? and the great malfurion disappeared. THe world saved, but the world compltely changed, how to react now? Tyrande may have have continued to lead her people in much the same way as they had been carrying on during the long vigil, but after her antics of pulling Illidan free and the effect that caused, i think FAndral gained some serious leverage. The druids did not need her leave to grow Teldrassil or build Darnassus, but it been built anyway immediatley provided the night elves with several things they hadn't used or bothered about in millennia. boundaries, lands, a central government etc - and well if you are viewing yourself as guardians of the world it is all too easy to fall into the trap of playing interfering parent albeit only to ensure the peace. Which was exactly Fandral's points, and his words, very much like Saruman's did indeed sound like wisdom to quite a number of night elves, but they were not.


    Without a doubt blizzrd can create great plots, but they are truly in need of a much more skilled writer than RIchard Knaak, to really bring out properly these subtelties in story telling, and they certainly need story tellers who actually are good writers and care about night elves to much better portray them in the light and background of what Chris Metzen had already set up for them in warcraft 3.

  18. #58
    Why would you expect that? Is it natural to expect high fantasy races to be exactly like the classic works of the genre?

    I just don't get the point of this line of thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  19. #59
    Scarab Lord Azutael's Avatar
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    While you are at it, orcs should also then clearly be like tolkiens orcs.

    If anything night elves should be more like in WC3 and in the lore before WoW. They used to be a lot more interesting IMO, now they are kinda reduced to tree-hugging hippies that aren't doing much.

  20. #60
    amazing !!! afterall that typing you're still don't get what i'm pointing out?

    no, i'm not saying night elves should be like tolkein elves, though i have spent time pointing out their similarities.

    the point i was making that Tolkein has actually written well how wise , millenia and exceptionally well accomplished beings would behave or do things when interacted with and blizzard would do well to take cue from that, as it seems far more believable for that type of background than the fumbling Tyrande and her night elves come across as.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 12:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerN View Post
    While you are at it, orcs should also then clearly be like tolkiens orcs.

    If anything night elves should be more like in WC3 and in the lore before WoW. They used to be a lot more interesting IMO, now they are kinda reduced to tree-hugging hippies that aren't doing much.
    incidentally I am also saying that quite a lot too, yet you seemed not to have noticed it

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