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  1. #1

    i expected night elves to be more like how tolkein describes Elrond and other elves

    So i was reading the LotR again, and onto the Silmarrillion and Unifinished tales, and it kept striking me repeatedly, esp in the Council of Elrond chapter and other sections that spoke of the Elves that this is how i expected night elves to be a lot more like.

    Elrond and co in his description typifies how i would expect beings that have lived thousands of years and are considered wise and to have accomplished great deeds to behave and to be described. Both in martial and magical splendour too. The way he describes their magic too seems an almost natural craft rather than explosive magic, again putting me in remembrance of the night elves and their great care to work in harmony with nature to enhance and preserve it. This i feel was a great thing to have in warcraft, alongside high and blood elves which were developed into deviations from this, where arcane was almost an intense and unnatural twisting and manipulating of the fabric of nature to achieve ends, somethinig that altho may have been common practice once a long long time ago, was viewed as disruptive, seductive and natural, a course that the elves had abandoned, but amongst them was still much power, stature and wisdom. IT seemed more natural and more appealing and authentic like this. Showing they got the right jist of it, but disappointed when they went into detail in some of the novels which I have read nearly all of.

    The way Tolkein describs them, ..in LotR much of the lines dedicated to them looks at the distant past, yet, their current state since no less diminished.

    Unlike the night elves in warcraft, they don't in one telling appear, fierce, strong and wise, and then in another telling (i.e. cataclysm and beyond) seem so inept and foolish.

    It's really sad to me, for i really do like warcraft for having such a detailed uuniverse, and 3 almost 4 distinct type of elves, night elves, high elves, blood elves and highbourne .. i like that there are lots of other races, and you get to go into them too, goblins, orcs, tauren, trolls, forsaken etc, they're ot just thrown in your face or used only as plot devices to display the grevity of evil.

    But the nihgt elves for their background have been disappointingly and poorly handled of late . I find this sad, and every time i read LotR or any of the other tolkein works, I can't shake but feel they should be more like that.. this is how i would expect beingst hat are thousands of years old and have fought and prevailed against the increidble odds that the warcraft story gave them.

    when you look at the set up of the sunering, the legion, how the story goes, the power, the dread, i really expect much more from the night elven race when written into the storyline in game or in the books. Having immortality woudl have been nice, but not essential, it needn't have gone for balance purposes at all, fi it was a plot device purely, then great, use it, tell a great tale from it, but if it was because being playable means that they had to be made crap, then that seems like poor decision making to me. Furthermore i do not see why the stature, wisdom , courage, or sheer remakrableness of the nihght elven people need to be diminished at all because they are playable. Why? becuase it seems to such a sd and un-necessary loss to rob Azeroth of that calibre, even if you were t o write a rising again, to numerous and too poor have been too many of the decisions and actions the night elves of Azeroth have been wrtitten to make in recent time. yet it isn't unsalvaageable.


    So, do they feel that writing such courage into a people or group would be unrealistic or improper? because the way tolkein writes it, it flows so well, and when they were introduced in warcraft, it seemed greater still would be the night elves of the west. Alas, Richard Knaak is no Tolkein, and the character and description of elves, was not handled with such skill, eloquence or wisdom sadly.

    And sad it is, for the current character and description of night elves as they have been appearing of late, does not match at all that of those whose deeds were made known to us and witnessed in warcraft 3 and the story told before wow. In fact, they seem two completely different groups of people, which is frustrating to see, because it is quite so obviously a bad realization.

    Whoever has been writing the role of the night elves in wow since cataclysm, either has not really done his due diligence or cares little for them, or is just not very skilled. Chris Metzen should enver have allowed those quests to go out like that, and demanded they be re-writtne fitting the original concept of the night elves that had been put out in wc3 and the stories told just before wow.

    Yet i puzzles me they can write so badly about this and so unfavourably when clearly when telling the story of blood elves, orcs and humans you can see a much imroved quality.

    Finally I would point out, it is not the quantity of night elven focus that concerns me, it is the quality. Tolkein in LotR and Hobbit, wrote little of them, but wrote them very well. HOw do you realize beings that are thousands of years old, who constnatly , (Welll at least up to the ctaclysm) performed deeds of great valor, might and courage, of great wisdom too - well, read how tolkein writes when he writes of Elrond, or Glorfindel, or Gilgalad, or Luhien etc, etc, and it is with such sagely wisdom, stature, valor and might you would expect to be clearly seen inthe Malfurion's, Tyrande's, Shandris, Jared Shadowsong's, Broll Bearmantle's, Mordent Evenshade etc etc and co.


    That is the bearing of an ancient and wise being who has triumphed in great peril with deeds of great valor. Yes the elves are great, but they don't seem impossibly so too either, and not all of them to a man are like that, but amongst them you have the highest concentration of valor, wisdom, strength and fairness. And the way he writes them, men certainly can and do rise t match their deeds, you never think that men are lesser because they are just plain inferrior, but more because of the choices and are shown to be able to be just as good as Elves, without making the Elves look silly and stupid. Look at how he writes in Arargorn in the Lord of the rings.. the book mind moreso than the film cos you get a more in-depth look, Altho GLorfindel might have an edge in fairness , and wisdom, Arargorn is certainly worthy of a place among the kingly type Elven Lord as an example, and he's not alone.

    This is how you write it. It doesn't have to be identical, but you would have some care in the portray for which what i have witnessed in warcraft just bitterly disappoints to the extent it annoys me so to see any night elf, and dread rather than look with excitement when they play a part in the story.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-02-15 at 12:42 PM.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Whitey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    *snip*
    I for one am grateful that Warcraft elves aren't like Tolkiens. Besides Tolkien is overrated as it is, now don't get me wrong he did a massive feat in creating what he did, but I'm sick of how his elves are portrayed. It's the faults that make something interesting.
    And no matter how you spin it, you can't write mutated troll offshoot to be as "valorous etc" as you describe the Tolkien elves. I love how Night Elves despite having had great altruistic moments and individuals, is still just a bigoted faction as a whole.
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  3. #3
    What is glorified about: "hey the evil madman is trying to come back and destroy the world, lets sail away from here and let human fix the problem this time".

    And night elves has quite some dark moments in its past aswell i think. Far from "singing and dancing high elves of wisdom" as in LotR. Separate fantasy/universe/world is separate, let them be so.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    I for one am grateful that Warcraft elves aren't like Tolkiens. Besides Tolkien is overrated as it is, now don't get me wrong he did a massive feat in creating what he did, but I'm sick of how his elves are portrayed. It's the faults that make something interesting.
    And no matter how you spin it, you can't write mutated troll offshoot to be as "valorous etc" as you describe the Tolkien elves. I love how Night Elves despite having had great altruistic moments and individuals, is still just a bigoted faction as a whole.
    One of the interesting things about warcraft elves is that they are not just one group, there are at least 4 distinctly different groups.. night elves, high elves, blood elves, highbourne. Which is really interesting to have, and one of the things that makes warcraft lore so endearing to me. I love that about warcraft. Another example of what I like is how the dark skinned elves for a change are not evil, nor the orcs stupid, evil brutes, having much more depth and character tothem, yet embodying the fantasy archetype of orcs - strong and brutal. Warcraft though full of cliches and with almost no original concepts, as you can find, goblins, gnomes, trolls, orcs, dark-skinned elves, arrogant elves, minotaurs (tauren) demons, undead etc in numerous and myraid fantasy settings, still they are thrown together quite fondly to me in warcraft and in a way I have often enjoyed and until recently (cataclysm onwards) I would have said "juggled extremely well".

    Still non of these genres matches the detail and scope of Tolkein, lets give credit where it is due, and though you may not like his elves, (not an uncommon sentiment I have observed often amongst warcraft forum users), he does write them extremely well for what they are. And by what thhey are, I mean his elves are immortal, where some have lived for thousands of years (over 10,000 some) and accomplished extraoridnary deeds. they are not super beings, this is very clear if you actually read the books, neither are they flawless which seems a common mis-conception. But for what they are set up to be though, he describes them fantastically. How would you characterize and write people in a story who have lived for thousands of years , highly intelligent, wise and have accomplished some remarkable deeds through great acts of strength, courage, magic and wisdom? I have read many fantasy series and none portrayed such long lived hero race as well as Tolkein portrays his Elves.

    sound familiar? yes, night elves have avery similar background to them and characteristics. It is more accurate to say Night elves were modelled after Tolkein's Elves, with High elves a twist to the classic frameworks rather than the archetype, this similarity should be easy to see. When you are describing such beings they really would appear much more like how Tolkein describes them than how they have been coming off as in wow recently. When i read his books, it was all too believable that they were thousands of years old and very wise, and have done and still are capable of deeds of great valor, it is believable. Not so when i read Tyrande's latest faux pas, or how the night elves were once again so easily outsmarted , easily beaten and again relied on some human or other creature for their salvation.

    so what i'm saying is that night elves in warcraft are not behaving like the wise, long-lived (1000s of years old) beings they are set up to be at all, and blizzard lore writers would do well to read/re-read Tolkein's works to refresh their memory or see how wise,very long lived, beings that have done (up till a few years ago (3rd war) according to the history they have given them,) deeds of great might and valor should be written like. You write them like how Tolkein writes them, not like how they come off in wolfheart, cataclysm or MoP is what i'm saying.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by imoom View Post
    What is glorified about: "hey the evil madman is trying to come back and destroy the world, lets sail away from here and let human fix the problem this time".

    And night elves has quite some dark moments in its past aswell i think. Far from "singing and dancing high elves of wisdom" as in LotR. Separate fantasy/universe/world is separate, let them be so.
    i think you make an unfair and rather misleading interpretation of the tolkein elves in both your paragraphs. ANd once again i am neither advocating they should be identical because obviously they are not, night elves have a very different history ..it's a different storyline/univesere etc, -- afford me some credit that i can at least perceive that. Warcraft is not doing a good job with night elves, and it's disappointing, i don't expect wise, long lived, valorous people to behave like how they have been written in wolfheart/cataclysm & MoP at all. I expect them to come off much more like Elrond and co and the other tolkein elves in the various tolkein books than they are coming across like in wow. I'm not saying or wishing for them to be identical.

    there is a way you kind of expect beings who have saved the world several times, done incredible feats over 1000s of years and lived 1000s of years to behave, act, speak and approach situations. You expect a certain level of quality to come off in their speech, in their actions and in their activities. They don't all have to be good, but you do expect a certain standard, Tolkein brings this about quite well in the Caliquendi Elves, Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, Rhadagast, Elrond, Glorfindel, Lorien Elves -

    note they are not all singing and dancing - but if that's what you thought tolkein elves were all about, then you coudln't have paid close attention to what you read in the Lord of the Rings or perhaps you never read it and only watched the film adapation and you certainly could not have read the ohter books like the Silmarrillion or the Unfinished tales or you would not be nearly half as contemptous of them as you appear to be if you had indeed read them well.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-02-15 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Zeror's Avatar
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    Welcome in Azeroth, a world that is not known as Middle-Earth. Every race looks a bit different here then they used to look like.

  6. #6
    Please do not go by the in-game dialogues to judge the races. Blizz right now is trying to focus on how cool Varian and his kid is and making out everyone else to be just BLEH. Tyrande's role in MOP has just been to point out "Boy isn't Varian a better leader than me?" It's really crappy writing.

  7. #7
    Fair analysis. It helps to think of them not as bungled Sindarin or Quenya elves, but as cleverly re-interpreted Drow from D&D (dark skinned, matriarchal, theocratic, elves). "What if instead of being evil subterranean demon worshippers, Drow were goonatured, druidic, nocturnal, moonworshipers.

  8. #8
    I don't have much knowledge on Elves per se.

    In Tolkien, there are Elves that live in cities (as Elrond's) and those that live in the forest (where Galadriel appeared to Gandalf in the movie, I believe).

    I liken the Night Elves to the Elves in the forest, not the ones living in the city with Elrond.

  9. #9
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    I can't speak for the atrocity that is NElf storytelling. But I do love how Blizz, every 2-3 year's, portrays BElves.

    I especially love how Cho hits it on the head when you first meet him. "Your people bear the mark of great power. And with it, have endured great pain. Truly do you deserve to be called "blood" elves."
    Sometimes I think I should have rolled a Priest....


  10. #10
    I expected Night Elves to continue to be how they were introduced in the Warcraft Universe instead of what they've been reduced to in WoW by crap writers. And it hasn't much of anything to do with Tolkien.

  11. #11
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    When you've been on the server moonglade and seen a night elf stood in goldshire.. all preconceptions of what night elves could have been in wow are forever crushed.

    I just don't like them because there character model looks like an old man trying to stand up straight, instead of a graceful elf.

  12. #12
    So you are disappointed that Blizzard writers aren't as good as Tolkien - the godfather of Middle Earth? You have some pretty high expectations.

  13. #13
    I love how Night Elves despite having had great altruistic moments and individuals, is still just a bigoted faction as a whole.
    I love how people say this yet its not supported at all in lore.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    1. Yeah Night elves ought to be portrayed as more competent in the stories.

    2. No they should not be carbon copies of Tolkien elves.
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  15. #15
    The Insane
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    Eh, Tolkien Elves are classic "We are so much above you puny mortals, so we don't care about you ahaha" High Elves. Night Elves are more like wood elves mixed with drow.
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  16. #16
    It'd be nice if Blizzard's storytellers just flat out said "the reason Night Elves suck now is because they've lost their Immortality and it's rendered them senile, weak, demented and generally useless".

  17. #17
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    It'd be nice if Blizzard's storytellers just flat out said "the reason Night Elves suck now is because they've lost their Immortality and it's rendered them senile, weak, demented and generally useless".
    Why bother to say it out right when it's so incredible obvious?
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Why bother to say it out right when it's so incredible obvious?
    Because people won't make the mistake of rolling one thinking they were playing fierce amazon warriors
    They'd know they were rolling weak, senile gits who barely can hold their own in a fight any more, are prone to outbursts of exceptional stupidity and have nothing going for them beyond a "pretty face", which can easily be remedied by rolling a Blood Elf

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    But that would make a pretty bad description in the character creation screen, don't you think ?

    One can hope they get the immortality thing back and they go back to the older elves.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    But that would make a pretty bad description in the character creation screen, don't you think ?
    They don't need to be patently insulting as I have been but they can make it clear what they are. "Loss of Immortality has left them weaker than they've ever been blah blah blah".

    One can hope they get the immortality thing back and they go back to the older elves.
    That won't happen.

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