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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by yuca247 View Post
    Could it possibly be that people have more and more real life things to do and they are happy with running LFR and doing other things that doesn't require them to schedule their whole lives around.

    I for one must say once I stopped raiding 4 nights a week I felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders and I started to enjoy the game more.

    Maybe others have felt the same way lately who knows.
    i agree with this comment!

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I think the main issue comes from ds. Every guild could easily get 8/8hc at that time and when some of those guilds failed to progress (I mean clearing almost full heroic content by that) they lost hope. Mop raiding is a big turn from cata raiding and it will take people some time to get used to it.
    This isn't anything new, though. Almost any guild could clear most of heroic ICC once the buff was up to 30%. The same thing applied to practically every Burning Crusade raid with the WotLK patch (30% nerf to everything, save Hyjal).

    This has happened before and it'll continue happening at the end of every expansion. You said that MoP raiding is a "big turn from cata raiding..." and that makes me wonder if you raided BWD, BoT, and To4W at the start of Cata. I'm guessing you didn't, because some of those fights were just as difficult, especially once you got to heroic modes. Certainly more difficult than heroic DS.

    Either way, as I said, this is going to happen with every final raid in every expansion. The only people not used to it are hardcore raiders (since they don't have problems killing stuff anyway) and those who just started the game or just started raiding.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by yuca247 View Post
    Could it possibly be that people have more and more real life things to do and they are happy with running LFR and doing other things that doesn't require them to schedule their whole lives around.

    I for one must say once I stopped raiding 4 nights a week I felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders and I started to enjoy the game more.

    Maybe others have felt the same way lately who knows.
    I think a lot of this is true.

    I started off this expansion telling myself that I would do lots of other things in wow. I would pvp more, and would level my professions and take pride in having a really cool toon. I would do the quests, and get titles and achievements. I made this decision, in part,because if I wanted to see raid content, I could que LFR, see the bosses, experience it and move on.

    What I missed though was that shared effort that comes from a guild trying to progress. Its something in the blood that LFR can't replace.

    Mind you, I don't want the hardcore life style, where my life centers around raiding. A huge weight was lifted from my shoulders when I stopped trying to have a life, career and raid hardmodes.

    Right now, I miss progression. I miss trying and then succeeding. That sweet spot is tough to find.

    I don't think that DS was the problem. IMO.
    Last edited by Woeful; 2013-02-18 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #224
    High Overlord Laylie's Avatar
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    Its the servers. My guilds old server gorefiend used to be a high pop really good raiding server with some top US 25 kills. Now everyone has migrated to illidan because of the recruitment pool and ease of finding pugs. I have not been in a pug for a modern raid since WOTLK. If blizzard wants to keep guilds alive and allow them to recruit. Take away the payment fee of a server transfer for 1 every 3 months or merge a lot of servers. It was impossible to recruit even at the beginning of the tier for my guild so we resorted to roatatin 18 people in and out of 10 mans for gear. Its hard on the raiders and the GM where I decided to stop playing all together. This whole cross realm zone was nice bringing people together for PvP, questing, etc but because of this recruitment for raiding is near impossible. They need to merge atleast half if not 75% of the servers into like 10-15 highly populated ones. Without this guilds on low/medium servers will ultimately start dwindling to nothing like my guild did. Eventually everyone will be on those high pop servers anyways.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    Almost any guild could clear most of heroic ICC once the buff was up to 30%.
    Most guilds (80% of those tracked that had any 25 man progression) couldn't down LK 25 on normal mode, even with the 30% buff.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #226
    The Patient stigz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    This is a valid point, but I will say I feel it's a healthy change for the game. MMO's are supposed to be time sinks, that's kind of the point. One could argue that the pendulum swung too far toward heavy time requirements, but for me it feels about right (except for dailies, which suck).

    I guess we'll see how this next tier plays out.
    I agree that MMO's should have time sinks. But time sinks in the wrong areas are a recipe for failure, and eventual loss of interest

  7. #227
    The Patient elmachino's Avatar
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    feels like my guild have picked it up a little, started hc msv a couple of weeks ago or so and got trollbinder down yesterday and got a couple of new healers

  8. #228
    Bloodsail Admiral Huntardicus's Avatar
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    Not got this problem here, the GMs of my guild are pretty amazing at keeping things going. There is always a surplus of raiders, never a night where there isn't people willing to participate. Slowly but surely starting to progress through heroics after a short spell of being stuck over Christmas, most fun I've had raiding since Wrath imo.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsoul View Post
    I haven't noticed any more guild churn then usual. Nothing like T11 anyway, which was a blood-bath (for 25 man guilds in particular) on both servers I play on.
    Agreed on both counts. By March/April 2011, T11 had claimed at least 60% of our 25-man roster. This time around, we benefited greatly from infusion of fresh talent boosting progression — plus, the overall feel of the tier has kept most people engaged in spite of the time sinks. We're one of the few 25-man normal guilds still around, I gather, so I'm happy.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I think the main issue comes from ds. Every guild could easily get 8/8hc at that time...
    Stopped reading there when I realized you were full of shit.

  11. #231
    Let me tell you the story of my guild. We are a casual, social guild that raids a bit for fun, something to do with our friends. In Cata, we enjoyed DS on LFR on our alts, and we eventually cleared DS normal after he was fully nerfed.

    When MoP rolled around, we all meandered thru the leveling content at our own pace, some of the people who cleared DS normal with us only hit 90 mid January. But an interesting thing has happened, there is no serious talk of doing normal modes. We have a few people who have alts/mains in raiding guilds doing both normal and heroic, and their universal verdict is (paraphrased) "Normal MoP is about as hard as Heroic DS, don't waste your time." Instead, we've been scheduling guild LFR runs. They have all the joking, social fun we had before, without any of the pressure. I think our biggest LFR group had 14 people in it. Lots of jokes that we should form a 25 man raid and queue up for LFR to see if we can make our irony meters explode.

  12. #232
    High Overlord Laylie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Let me tell you the story of my guild. We are a casual, social guild that raids a bit for fun, something to do with our friends. In Cata, we enjoyed DS on LFR on our alts, and we eventually cleared DS normal after he was fully nerfed.

    When MoP rolled around, we all meandered thru the leveling content at our own pace, some of the people who cleared DS normal with us only hit 90 mid January. But an interesting thing has happened, there is no serious talk of doing normal modes. We have a few people who have alts/mains in raiding guilds doing both normal and heroic, and their universal verdict is (paraphrased) "Normal MoP is about as hard as Heroic DS, don't waste your time." Instead, we've been scheduling guild LFR runs. They have all the joking, social fun we had before, without any of the pressure. I think our biggest LFR group had 14 people in it. Lots of jokes that we should form a 25 man raid and queue up for LFR to see if we can make our irony meters explode.
    Normal MoP as hard as Heroic Dragon Soul? Not really I mean Spine was virtually impossible before nerf unless you class stacked. Normal modes in MoP are not hard at all if you know the mechanics and get it done. Hell I may have only done Vaults and two bosses in Fear but I only raided one night a week for 3 hours. They were not hard at all.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Laylie View Post
    Normal MoP as hard as Heroic Dragon Soul? Not really I mean Spine was virtually impossible before nerf unless you class stacked. Normal modes in MoP are not hard at all if you know the mechanics and get it done. Hell I may have only done Vaults and two bosses in Fear but I only raided one night a week for 3 hours. They were not hard at all.
    If you noticed he mentioned that they cleared DS normal after the full nerfs, so he's comparing fully nerfed H DS to normal MoP raids, which I would say is a fair comparison.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Thehealbus View Post
    If you noticed he mentioned that they cleared DS normal after the full nerfs, so he's comparing fully nerfed H DS to normal MoP raids, which I would say is a fair comparison.
    Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear. I've also never personally done Heroic DS (except to have the rock guy stomp us flat a dozen times or so) or Normal MoP. I take my friends at their word, since they are the heroic raiders and I just like to fart around in LFR and level alts.

  15. #235
    High Overlord Laylie's Avatar
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    I finished it before any DS nerfs even came out except for Spine that was a well needed nerf so I guess I can't compare but if its anything like the ICC nerfs then I guess I can agree.

  16. #236
    As much as I personally love the LFR feature, I think it's heavily contributing to the demise of normal raiding.

    I always looked at my old 40 man raids as 10 people who were amazing, 20 people who were casual but did what they needed to do, and 10 people who we needed to just fill slots with. With 25 man it had roughly the same proportions. 5 amazing, 15 casual, 5 slot-fillers/friends.

    With the advent of LFR, I think what happened was it took away a lot of the casual/slot-filler players since they are ultimately indifferent to high end raiding achievements. Problem is, unless you're in a top 20 guild where everyone is that 'amazing' player, you need those casual slot filler guys. That's why people are breaking into 10s or straight up bailing to a more populated server to get into an active guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  17. #237
    Our guild is a 10 man semi-progression (16/16, 2/16H) guild that consists of RL friends and friends of friends. We have a core of 10 raiders, but had some people drop out due to RL commitments or just boredom with the game. Fortunately, we've always had backups to replace those people. I think a lot of us have cut back in in-game time as this current tier is about to end and it really helps with burn out. I've noticed that people have been playing other games together (SC2, DoTA, D3, etc.) or just spending some time away from the computer.

    I guess since we all know each other IRL, things are a little different, but we haven't run into too many attendance issues with MoP raiding so far. Our server seems moderate with raiding activity (maybe 20-30 raiding guilds) so if we ever have to pug, we can usually find someone.

    This tier of raiding didn't feel poorly tuned as some previously posters have said. We hit the same roadblocks (Elegon, Garalon, etc) as most guilds, but were eventually able to clear them within a week or so. Our thinking has always been, if we're going to spend XX hours a week raiding together, spend the 1-2 hours of free time to read up on your class and the fights. Whenever we had issues with people underperforming, we asked them politely (always privately and never in gchat or raid chat) to just take some steps to bring their performance a notch up. Most (mature) raiders, in my experience, have been more than willing to listen to our suggestions.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    This isn't anything new, though. Almost any guild could clear most of heroic ICC once the buff was up to 30%. The same thing applied to practically every Burning Crusade raid with the WotLK patch (30% nerf to everything, save Hyjal).

    This has happened before and it'll continue happening at the end of every expansion. You said that MoP raiding is a "big turn from cata raiding..." and that makes me wonder if you raided BWD, BoT, and To4W at the start of Cata. I'm guessing you didn't, because some of those fights were just as difficult, especially once you got to heroic modes. Certainly more difficult than heroic DS.

    Either way, as I said, this is going to happen with every final raid in every expansion. The only people not used to it are hardcore raiders (since they don't have problems killing stuff anyway) and those who just started the game or just started raiding.
    I did, not everybody is me tho.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    As much as I personally love the LFR feature, I think it's heavily contributing to the demise of normal raiding.

    I always looked at my old 40 man raids as 10 people who were amazing, 20 people who were casual but did what they needed to do, and 10 people who we needed to just fill slots with. With 25 man it had roughly the same proportions. 5 amazing, 15 casual, 5 slot-fillers/friends.

    With the advent of LFR, I think what happened was it took away a lot of the casual/slot-filler players since they are ultimately indifferent to high end raiding achievements. Problem is, unless you're in a top 20 guild where everyone is that 'amazing' player, you need those casual slot filler guys. That's why people are breaking into 10s or straight up bailing to a more populated server to get into an active guild.
    Guilds were falling apart record speed in Cata even before LFR was added. Problem isn't LFR but attitude most raiding guilds have these days. Most raiding guilds aren't training newbies, but instead want to recruit veteran raider with experience and gear similar to guild level. Same time veteran raiders are leaving game or just getting bored of raiding, so result is there is lot more veteran raiders leaving raiding scene and no where near enough newbies who get trained to raiding. Such thing like class leaders who actually train new players are thing of past in most guilds. Raiding guilds are competing for diminishing number of remaining veteran raiders and some guilds disband in the process.
    Last edited by leipuri; 2013-02-19 at 01:16 AM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by leipuri View Post
    Guilds were falling apart record speed in Cata even before LFR was added. Problem isn't LFR but attitude most raiding guilds have these days. Most raiding guilds aren't training newbies, but instead want to recruit veteran raider with experience and gear similar to guild level. Same time veteran raiders are leaving game or just getting bored of raiding, so result is there is lot more veteran raiders leaving raiding scene and no where near enough newbies who get trained to raiding. Such thing like class leaders who actually train new players are thing of past in most guilds. Raiding guilds are competing for diminishing number of remaining veteran raiders and some guilds disband in the process.
    kind of hard to have class leaders in most guilds when the most common raid size is 10 man. But I aggre the willingless to take on new recruits and take a chance on them is going away. Like a previous poster said you might have 5 awesome, 15 casual and 5 filler guys in a raid back in the day but that time is gone now. And the slots for those filler guys guess what mostly people you took a chance with to see if they might get better.

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