Guilds Falling Apart a Lot This Patch

[fangless]

I would wager that guilds fall apart all the time, every patch.

Probably depends on your progression, and how you're doing. We're getting new apps all the time, and have 1-2 groups of extra trials/bench players night to night. But if a guild is hitting the wall against normal mode or even early heroics, many players aren't used to this, and probably give up. Cataclysm definitely softened up a lot of people's expectations of raiding. Early DS was pretty rough, before nerfs. Stuff like Warmaster and Spine were legit challenges. But by the time most people saw them, it was behind a 25% blanket nerf.

As a whole, it's probably harder to get more people into legit raiding (2-4 days a week) than it is to keep them from giving up. If you like raiding, you're already doing it. If you aren't raiding at this point, it's probably because you can't commit so many days a week.

[Osmeric]

what those numbers mean is that currently we have 262.285 active guild that have killed any kind of boss.

No, that's the total number of guilds tracked by guildox. The vast majority of those do not raid.

[Misuteri]

There's a yes and a no to that and I realize you were not being combative because I understand your point entirely.

No, you don't truly "know" a fight if you haven't completed it. However like any raid in WoW history there is the first 2-3 bosses to get you geared, the cock block middle boss that's a gear check/roadblock, then you're home free pretty much until the end. My raiding started in TBC and the pattern has remained the same. Back then we didn't have You Tube channels explaining every single fight in detail, the online community was not as robust IMHO as it is now, there's a world of difference between Thottbot then and what we have now as far as databases, tips, explanations etc. Plus, and this is almost inarguable, the game's raids are not as hash and unforgiving in progression as they were in T4.

Yes, I do understand the importance of heroic gearing smoothing out a transition to the next tier as well. I know you're pointing out the obvious benefits of doing them. I'm just saying more people would rather show off an armory page of heroic gear than care about how it's going to buff them going into the next tier. It's no different in that respect than normal leveling. Any DS geared player wasn't replacing items they earned in Cata until 88 and in some cases 90.

I think the bottom line is I just find more enjoyment in the game now off the progression treadmill but would never criticize anyone who does enjoy that as their primary play focus. It's not much different than how I fully don't get people that collect vanity/combat pets and care about getting them to level 25. It's an aspect of the game I find no interest in. However we should all be thankful that for whatever play style or focus we enjoy in many regards MOP has given us tons of avenues to enjoy them all and frankly, with some shortcomings inherent to any expansion with failed ideas/experiments, the best expansion they've done yet.

[judgementofantonidas]

You are not reading it correctly

In DS we had 13k active raiding guilds at the end including those who killed hc deathwing

what those numbers mean is that currently we have 262.285 active guild that have killed any kind of boss.
of those 282.285 47.640 has killed a boss in tier 14
and of those 47.640 there is currently 30.647 active raiding guilds including those who killed HC sha
Being a active raiding guild means you made a kill within a month.(if i remember correctly)

tl:dr

so far there is 135% more raiding guilds atm than there was at the end of DS which means even though raids is alot harder than DS more people is playing now.
Also since it does not count guilds that have not killed a boss within a month as active some guilds who have been strugling for more than a month on a boss may not be counted in even though they are active raiding.

which is exactly what I wanted you to define in words for those claiming quite the opposite with no reference to support thier arguements other than being mearly arguementative.

[Deleted]

You are not reading it correctly

In DS we had 13k active raiding guilds at the end including those who killed hc deathwing

what those numbers mean is that currently we have 262.285 active guild that have killed any kind of boss.
of those 282.285 47.640 has killed a boss in tier 14
and of those 47.640 there is currently 30.647 active raiding guilds including those who killed HC sha
Being a active raiding guild means you made a kill within a month.(if i remember correctly)

tl:dr

so far there is 135% more raiding guilds atm than there was at the end of DS which means even though raids is alot harder than DS more people is playing now.
Also since it does not count guilds that have not killed a boss within a month as active some guilds who have been strugling for more than a month on a boss may not be counted in even though they are active raiding.

I wouldn't be looking at the end of DS then, tbh.

Try first few months for a direct comparison.

[Osmeric]

so far there is 135% more raiding guilds atm than there was at the end of DS which means even though raids is alot harder than DS more people is playing now.

Why do you imagine the number that were raiding at the END of T13 is relevant? That tier went on forever.

[judgementofantonidas]

There's a yes and a no to that and I realize you were not being combative because I understand your point entirely.

No, you don't truly "know" a fight if you haven't completed it. However like any raid in WoW history there is the first 2-3 bosses to get you geared, the cock block middle boss that's a gear check/roadblock, then you're home free pretty much until the end. My raiding started in TBC and the pattern has remained the same. Back then we didn't have You Tube channels explaining every single fight in detail, the online community was not as robust IMHO as it is now, there's a world of difference between Thottbot then and what we have now as far as databases, tips, explanations etc. Plus, and this is almost inarguable, the game's raids are not as hash and unforgiving in progression as they were in T4.

Yes, I do understand the importance of heroic gearing smoothing out a transition to the next tier as well. I know you're pointing out the obvious benefits of doing them. I'm just saying more people would rather show off an armory page of heroic gear than care about how it's going to buff them going into the next tier. It's no different in that respect than normal leveling. Any DS geared player wasn't replacing items they earned in Cata until 88 and in some cases 90.

I think the bottom line is I just find more enjoyment in the game now off the progression treadmill but would never criticize anyone who does enjoy that as their primary play focus. It's not much different than how I fully don't get people that collect vanity/combat pets and care about getting them to level 25. It's an aspect of the game I find no interest in. However we should all be thankful that for whatever play style or focus we enjoy in many regards MOP has given us tons of avenues to enjoy them all and frankly, with some shortcomings inherent to any expansion with failed ideas/experiments, the best expansion they've done yet.

And I will never make an arguement against there being many children that pound out the content simply to hover in front of the auctionhouse showing what "you cannot get" off to others. And this does tend to give a bad name to the raiders that are doing it and doing it right.

[Crashdummy]

which is exactly what I wanted you to define in words for those claiming quite the opposite with no reference to support thier arguements other than being mearly arguementative.

Funny, because wowprogress says otherwise.

According to wow progress, 39545 guilds killed Stone Guards, and 62648 killed Morchok.

If there are so many people raiding, why 23k more guils killed Morchok than Stone Guards?

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Dont fool yourself, tier 14 is not that successful.

Also 71186 guilds killed Magmaw.

[judgementofantonidas]

Why do you imagine the number that were raiding at the END of T13 is relevant? That tier went on forever.

He is posting statistical facts which reflect at this point in time there are not only more, but substantially more raiders taking the field than other posters have tried to express with statements such as "raiders are a dieing breed".

[Deleted]

He is posting statistical facts which reflect at this point in time there are not only more, but substantially more raiders taking the field than other posters have tried to express with statements such as "raiders are a dieing breed".

Quoting for the lulz, given the post immediately above it.

Apologies for doing it, but was too good not to.

[Osmeric]

He is posting statistical facts which reflect at this point in time there are not only more, but substantially more raiders taking the field than other posters have tried to express with statements such as "raiders are a dieing breed".

I don't think you're stupid enough to believe what you just typed there.

Comparing the number of raiders at the end of a nine month tier, when people will have long since seen the content they wanted or were able to see, to the number struggling in progression on a tier most haven't cleared on normal model, is meaningless at best and dishonest at worst. It evidence only for the lack of integrity of those putting the argument forward.

[fangless]

Funny, because wowprogress says otherwise.

According to wow progress, 39545 guilds killed Stone Guards, and 62648 killed Morchok.

If there are so many people raiding, why 23k more guils killed Morchok than Stone Guards?

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Dont fool yourself, tier 14 is not that successful.

Also 71186 guilds killed Magmaw.

Because Stone Guards aren't a pushover? I don't see how number of guilds killing entry bosses is the determining factor behind the success level of the tier.

[wynterlyn]

He is posting statistical facts which reflect at this point in time there are not only more, but substantially more raiders taking the field than other posters have tried to express with statements such as "raiders are a dieing breed".

Those ain't even the right statistical facts. He obviously couldn't read. Those are the number of guilds in total currently active. It isn't the number of active raiding guilds.

[Osmeric]

Because Stone Guards aren't a pushover? I don't see how number of guilds killing entry bosses is the determining factor behind the success level of the tier.

So, you're going to count all those guilds that haven't downed a single boss as raiders?

WoW has 9.6 M raiders! Wooooo!

[judgementofantonidas]

Funny, because wowprogress says otherwise.

According to wow progress, 39545 guilds killed Stone Guards, and 62648 killed Morchok.

If there are so many people raiding, why 23k more guils killed Morchok than Stone Guards?

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Easy. And this is from personal experience. Morchok day one of the his release in the gear we gathered in the time prior to his release we one shot him to be the fifth guild on the server to do so. Stone Guard a week after his release after grinding out more gear after repeated wipes we finally downed him after wiping seven times.

There is a step up in what is required with the preliminary bosses of this expanson. That is not being argued by the statment that you answered. What was being argued was that regardless of the increased level of difficulty or maybe even due to it there are more people attempting it.

[fangless]

I don't think you're stupid enough to believe what you just typed there.

Comparing the number of raiders at the end of a nine month tier, when people will have long since seen the content they wanted or were able to see, to the number struggling in progression on a tier most haven't cleared on normal model, is meaningless at best and dishonest at worst. It evidence only for the lack of integrity of those putting the argument forward.

The number was active guilds, which have had a kill in the last month or so. Active guilds killing stuff at the end of DS. I hope that number includes guilds that had DS on farm for more than a month as well though.

So, you're going to count all those guilds that haven't downed a single boss as raiders?

WoW has 9.6 M raiders! Wooooo!

I don't even know what point you just tried to make.

[Crashdummy]

Because Stone Guards aren't a pushover? I don't see how number of guilds killing entry bosses is the determining factor behind the success level of the tier.

Because what those numbers are showing are that:

Either a lot less people are raiding

or

The same or more people are trying, but the tier tunning is so bad, that at least 23k guilds have been trying to kill the first boss of the tier for months unsuccessfully, which i dont think so, since Stone Guards is pretty easy.

[Saerise]

My guild has had trouble getting off the ground again in this patch. We've lost a lot of people from burnout, and it's taken a long time to get the rest ready for raiding. Then the higher geared people get frustrated at the lack of progress being made.

[Crashdummy]

Easy. And this is from personal experience. Morchok day one of the his release in the gear we gathered in the time prior to his release we one shot him to be the fifth guild on the server to do so. Stone Guard a week after his release after grinding out more gear after repeated wipes we finally downed him after wiping seven times.

There is a step up in what is required with the preliminary bosses of this expanson. That is not being argued by the statment that you answered. What was being argued was that regardless of the increased level of difficulty or maybe even due to it there are more people attempting it.

You really think that mroe than 23k GUILDS have been trying to kill a boss for more than 3 months unsuccessfully?

And if so, you would call that a successful tier?

There are less people raiding outside LFR, dont try to fool yourself.

[Royalite]

Many more guilds did DS than that figure. Guilds actively raiding at the very end of DS? Not sure why that's relevant.

EDIT: wowprogress.com lists 68K guilds that raided in DS. 13K might be the number that FINISHED H DS. Hardly the same thing!

Compare the number that finished H DS to the number that have finished H T14.

Another thing to consider is heroic DS was logically the most pugged heroic content over any other teir. Due to cross realm raiding of the current raiding content (ie it was the highest raiding content you could do). I was running heroic DS clears on alts that I would not have been able to do on my server.

I don't know if the stats people are looking at include pugs.