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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    right. and I only tried to make a statement based on personal knowldege and extrapolate that if there are guild groups in a raiding guild that has the content on farm that cannot even get past the first boss then it is logical to assume that there are guilds and definitely pug groups that have that same difficulty.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:22 PM ----------



    already responded to osmeric's near identical post
    So, as i already asked you many times, you do actually believe more than 23k guilds TRYING have yet to kill a single boss in the tier.

    I dont believe that, but if that's the case, then i wouldnt call the tier successfully, since 40% of the guilds trying cant kill a single boss (not talking about finishing it).

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    The guy who said something like 'I noticed since vanilla a tread of people coming and going', while funny and true, isn't what this thread is about. From vanilla until the peak in wrath, guild health was always getting better. Communities were stronger, raiding was so accessible and fun. When Blizzard listened to the 5% of the elitist players who said make things harder, they got Cataclysm, and everything since 4.0 has been slowly getting worse. Look at any WoW Progress or stat tracking graphic on the internet. Raiding is less popular, the game is less popular, and it will slowly keep turning downhill until they bring back how easy and fun it was in Wrath.

    I played in vanilla and did server firsts on Stonemaul (rag, AQ, etc). I never cared about it being difficult so i could be 'different' from other players because it was just ultimately i had more time on my hands than other players. How WoW was in wrath, all my friends could jump into dungeons and raids and clear shit, grind reps in a few days, etc and love the game. Straight up, this is a game. It's an online game to hang out, kill shit and move on. Not stress about and make sure you log in every day to do some retarded repetitive dailies to fill another bar up over two months. Any online / social game really is better off when theres just more people, straight up. Put some challenging heroic modes for the 5%, go ahead... no one cares. Let the people who want to have fun do the normal modes and make it easy.
    Normal mode is tuned in between super easy and difficult, the PTR is used for tuning and thousands of boss kills are done on the PTR to tune. People who don't want to use the PTR to learn fights ahead of time start behind and obviously accept that since they dont do it. People who stack the worst classes and expect bosses to be easy, choose that. People make conscious decisions to make this game much harder than it really is. All of that time wiping can be halved with people taking 15min to read a guide and learn the proper rotation. How much easier do people want this game? We walked through normal mode in blues and greens with some crafted gear that is worth next to nothing now, so is the content hard or the player talent base getting worse?

  3. #383
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harekrsna View Post
    What exactly is the argument? That is a comparison to apples and oranges, DS ran nearly a year- it was the longest lived tier with the least amount of bosses. This is the exact opposite kind of tier, most bosses least amount of time to finish them all.

    Nerfs to Elegon were all on normal mode (with the exception to the nerf that put back in dmg output from spark explosions and an hp reduction to make up for it), those are targeted nerfs to correct over-tuned encounters not baseline nerfs to make bad players able to clear content. The only heroic nerf I know of outside of that is the nerfs to Empress' 10-man dmg to prevent 4 healing, and heroic-elite dmg output from the curse (and the hotfix where it was doubling for no reason).

    But the rest of these "nerfs" were more about correcting overtuning, and when the patch ends who cares whether its nerfed or not any half-decent guild will be in ToT clearing that.
    Again. I posted only information that I was witness to. Heroic nerfs are irrelavant to me at this time as I am incapable of progressing through them in my current group.


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  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Has anyone thought to get better at the game? As stupid as that sounds I have tried helping many friends in supposed,"Progression," guilds only to see that most of their raid group didnt know their class. They thought they did but they were way off and pulling horrendous numbers. People say something is too hard then watch someone walk through it in blues, greens and do a full clear in normal mode. What is the answer to that? Low ilvl and full clear normal mode makes it sound like the nerfing and giving away loot isnt working. Nerfing content 35% and making people happy so they feel like good raiders then they are hit with a normal raid and fail miserably isnt the game, it is the player base.

    And those people are the first to chant gearscore =! skill :P

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by darklady View Post
    I have a question for the people saying their guild is falling apart now. What's your raiding schedule? Do you raid for more than 9 hours per week? On my realm, the only guilds that are having problems are the ones that insist on raiding for 12-16 hours per week. There's just too much grind this expansion to raid that much.
    Tue Thurs 830-1130. Same as our DS schedule which we had 3/8 heroic clear before nerf. We broke up during T14, but only had 3/16 normal. I just don't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Has anyone thought to get better at the game?
    I'm pretty sure they didn't need your suggestion to attempt that, to the extent that they wanted to. So whining about it on the forum is just a waste of electrons.

    The issue is that the mismatch is between the game and the demographics of the player population, and is not something that any individual player can meaningfully affect by individual actions. It's the responsibility of the game designers to design to the demographics, not the responsibility of the players to save the designers when they miss.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    The reason with the Stone Guards in my opinion is that it's just too hard for an entry level boss for 80% of guilds. The upper eschelon might laugh and say LOL U CANT KILL STONE GUARDS. But they don't have the casual mentality. Any guild in the world could go into DS and kill Morchok and Yorsahj normal. So what does this mean?

    - Casual guilds who have to deal with a rotating roster more often than stable guilds have to constantly retrain and reteach new players
    - Casual guilds are actually getting some taste of success to further incentivize continuing
    - Casual guilds are actually getting loot to gear up players to make later encounters easier

    There were weeks we'd clear up to spirit binder no problem. Then we'd have 2-3 slots that were like a rotating door and the next week we'd have problems on the dogs. So we'd basically never have anything on farm because it's so hard to keep players in this tier and having to constantly get new people sucked. Being on a shit server only makes it worse because you can't be picky. You need to just take what you can get, and usually it's the guy who stands in fire.
    So by choosing the casual mentality, does that mean you don't know the correct rotations for your class?Reforge?Gemming? When to use Cd's and when not to? How to glyph? Or do people expect to do everything mostly wrong and still down bosses? Blizzard doesn't ask much from its players besides play your class and pull the numbers you should and you will down bosses, period. Pull the numbers you should and you will progress like you should.

  8. #388
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Has anyone thought to get better at the game?
    5-10% of players do.

    Everyone else doesn't.

    if it was my game, i'd be designing it around 90% of the playerbase, not the freakish outliers.
    As stupid as that sounds I have tried helping many friends in supposed,"Progression," guilds only to see that most of their raid group didnt know their class. They thought they did but they were way off and pulling horrendous numbers. People say something is too hard then watch someone walk through it in blues, greens and do a full clear in normal mode. What is the answer to that? Low ilvl and full clear normal mode makes it sound like the nerfing and giving away loot isnt working. Nerfing content 35% and making people happy so they feel like good raiders then they are hit with a normal raid and fail miserably isnt the game, it is the player base.
    Most players don't know their class.

    Game doesn't teach you, and until you set foot into your first raid, it doesn't matter a toss.
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  9. #389
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    The reason with the Stone Guards in my opinion is that it's just too hard for an entry level boss for 80% of guilds. The upper eschelon might laugh and say LOL U CANT KILL STONE GUARDS. But they don't have the casual mentality. Any guild in the world could go into DS and kill Morchok and Yorsahj normal. So what does this mean?

    - Casual guilds who have to deal with a rotating roster more often than stable guilds have to constantly retrain and reteach new players
    - Casual guilds are actually getting some taste of success to further incentivize continuing
    - Casual guilds are actually getting loot to gear up players to make later encounters easier

    There were weeks we'd clear up to spirit binder no problem. Then we'd have 2-3 slots that were like a rotating door and the next week we'd have problems on the dogs. So we'd basically never have anything on farm because it's so hard to keep players in this tier and having to constantly get new people sucked. Being on a shit server only makes it worse because you can't be picky. You need to just take what you can get, and usually it's the guy who stands in fire.
    Couldn't agree more. Spirit kings and Will of the Emperor are a joke after getting through Elegon pre nerfs. Just gettin into Terrace you have to circumvent a couple of really huge cock blocks in order to start at content that is EASIER but drops higher ilvl gear than it's predecessor.

    It may just be a personal oppinion but I feel that bosses should show some form of progression in difficulty not brick wall followed by walk through the daisies.


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  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Again. I posted only information that I was witness to. Heroic nerfs are irrelavant to me at this time as I am incapable of progressing through them in my current group.
    Even in that case you must admit there has been few to no nerfs of Tier 14 so far, compared to DS. I believe at 5 months in DS was at 15% nerf already. DS nerfs were baseline and Tier 14 nerfs have been calculated and there won't be anymore Tier 14 nerfs until Tier 15 is released at which point most people will do Tier 14 just to catch-up rather than as progression.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm pretty sure they didn't need your suggestion to attempt that, to the extent that they wanted to. So whining about it on the forum is just a waste of electrons.

    The issue is that the mismatch is between the game and the demographics of the player population, and is not something that any individual player can meaningfully affect by individual actions. It's the responsibility of the game designers to design to the demographics, not the responsibility of the players to save the designers when they miss.
    If you pull the numbers you should then you will progress. If you fail at that then it isn't blizzards job to carry you through content especially normal mode. If you only get better to the extent you feel is what you should and you are pulling half of what you should, then you will wipe and it will be your own fault, no one elses. It is about numbers and that is it. Dont stand in fire, pull the numbers for the gear you have and win. Is that really so difficult?

  12. #392
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    So, as i already asked you many times, you do actually believe more than 23k guilds TRYING have yet to kill a single boss in the tier.

    I dont believe that, but if that's the case, then i wouldnt call the tier successfully, since 40% of the guilds trying cant kill a single boss (not talking about finishing it).
    Although hard to believe it IS possible when you are dealing with MILLIONS of players.


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  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm pretty sure they didn't need your suggestion to attempt that, to the extent that they wanted to. So whining about it on the forum is just a waste of electrons.

    The issue is that the mismatch is between the game and the demographics of the player population, and is not something that any individual player can meaningfully affect by individual actions. It's the responsibility of the game designers to design to the demographics, not the responsibility of the players to save the designers when they miss.
    I'll repeat myself once again - if you're not raiding why are you so obsessed about it? do your thing, and leave raiding comunnity alone. I'm not posting about making scenarios harder, and you wouldn't like that, would you?

  14. #394
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    If you pull the numbers you should then you will progress. If you fail at that then it isn't blizzards job to carry you through content especially normal mode. If you only get better to the extent you feel is what you should and you are pulling half of what you should, then you will wipe and it will be your own fault, no one elses. It is about numbers and that is it. Dont stand in fire, pull the numbers for the gear you have and win. Is that really so difficult?
    Wrong.

    It is blizzards job to prove content doable by the playerbase - either by matching the encounters to the playerbases skill or by teaching the playerbase to play right from the start. Right now blizz leave the players largely clueless but also tunes their stuff to be only doable by experts.
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  15. #395
    guilds always fall apart at the end of patch, but this time around the number of 25man guilds that fell apart is HUGE.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    5-10% of players do.

    Everyone else doesn't.

    if it was my game, i'd be designing it around 90% of the playerbase, not the freakish outliers.


    Most players don't know their class.

    Game doesn't teach you, and until you set foot into your first raid, it doesn't matter a toss.
    So you just mash buttons with no real thought process involved from 1-90. You don't care how to pull more or why someone else in lesser gear and the same spec as you is doubling your dps? You arent curious what he is doing differently than you? What kind of tuning can blizzard possibly do if 90% Of players fail at even learning how to play? Leveling and hitting 90, then expecting to down bosses without even knowing your class. Loot in your m ailbox sounds about right if 90% of people dont know their class, that sounds rather high btw.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    Tue Thurs 830-1130. Same as our DS schedule which we had 3/8 heroic clear before nerf. We broke up during T14, but only had 3/16 normal. I just don't get it.
    Could just be bad leadership. I raid lead a group that is 13/16H atm and we raid 2 nights a week (fri-sat 10pm-2am) we had some bumpy weeks and have had to replace many members over the tier but we've still come out on top by focusing on progressing on a boss and never saying that we can't do it because we know all bosses can die.

  18. #398
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harekrsna View Post
    Even in that case you must admit there has been few to no nerfs of Tier 14 so far, compared to DS. I believe at 5 months in DS was at 15% nerf already. DS nerfs were baseline and Tier 14 nerfs have been calculated and there won't be anymore Tier 14 nerfs until Tier 15 is released at which point most people will do Tier 14 just to catch-up rather than as progression.
    Just looking at the progress on my server, mine included, T14 will remain progress for MANY players for a week or two into T15. T15 is being dropped too soon, not T14 is too difficult.


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  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Normal mode is tuned in between super easy and difficult, the PTR is used for tuning and thousands of boss kills are done on the PTR to tune. People who don't want to use the PTR to learn fights ahead of time start behind and obviously accept that since they dont do it. People who stack the worst classes and expect bosses to be easy, choose that. People make conscious decisions to make this game much harder than it really is. All of that time wiping can be halved with people taking 15min to read a guide and learn the proper rotation. How much easier do people want this game? We walked through normal mode in blues and greens with some crafted gear that is worth next to nothing now, so is the content hard or the player talent base getting worse?
    No disrespect but it seems like you just have a solid 10 core players who are fairly hardcore. I've been in guilds like that and I know it can be hard to understand where a casual guild comes from, but we raid two nights a week and constantly rotate 2-4 slots in our raid every week because people prioritize raiding very low (hallmark of a casual guild) and that's fine. This is the same type of guild who got 3/8 H DS pre-nerf which I thought was decent progression for our playstyles. The problem is the entry level bosses are too hard to have to reteach every week so nothing is every really on farm and less people can be carried. Also, less server activity overall means slim pickens for our roster and we have to be less picky. We can't get all 10 players to be all-star Joes. I'm used to raid encounters that allows us to carry 2-4 people in a 10 man fairly easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I repeat myself once again - if you're not raiding why are you so obsessed about it? do your thing, and leave raiding comunity alone. I'm not posting about making scenarios harder, and you wouldn't like that, would you?
    Exactly, they want the same progression and loot as people who actually put effort into a game. Do your thing and raiders wil do their thing and everyone will be happy. If you can't clear on normal mode, it isnt the game, it is you or the people you raid with. Blizzard can not tune around people not wanting to try or who dont even know their own class yet expect to down raid bosses.

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