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  1. #141
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    What is true is that this tier is seeing complaints over and above previous tiers. Theres even a "wtf patch already???" thread somewhere because people in general don't seem to be done with T14 yet by any stretch.
    I am one of them XD

    Now I have only 2 weeks to get the Fearless title that comes with Cutting Edge

    There are guilds that likes to progress as well as compare themselves with the server to see where they are, and nerfing contents often screw with that, hence I am liking this "no nerf until next raid tier" thing.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by looorg View Post
    While not falling apart there is less and less wiggle room with every person that stops playing. I have a feeling that old raiders are not being replaced by new raiders, the group is dwindling in size / playerbase. What all these other players are doing tho is utterly beyond me, they can't all be pvp people? LFR isn't really raiding and it's not really training any new raiders either, atleast I don't think so. It might be very server dependent but it's getting harder and harder to find replacements and new people that wants to do actual raiding. Eventually it might just run out of steam.
    I see a lot of people that want to raid but very few who want to do anything for the progression. I dont think that raiding is running out of steam I think that the talent in the player base is going down so to find someone who knows their class and does well, then yes it is harder to find them. As some here point out, in their opinion, the majority dont look up fights, dont know their class and dont care about what numbers someone pulls, so in that case there alot of those out there looking to get some free loot and carried. To gear a bad player is a waste of time and gear and i agree recruiting good players is becoming more and more difficult.

  3. #143
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I am on a large server. I will say recruiting is at an all time high.
    2 months ago, my old guild imploded due to attrition. Currently I'm in a 7hc guild, great group, interesting that the core of the current guild server transfered because of attrition themselves. I'm watching a 25 man guild that some of my ex guildies are in going through more attrition every week.

    Watching all of this happen and reading people who do not want 5.2 to be released in Feb because it's too soon as they have not killed xyz boss.

    I think it will be good for the new content patch. To have a (hopefully) smooth flow in progression. I agree with an earlier poster, progression is pretty disjointed this teir. You go from MSV which is fairly easy to HoF with a large scale up and many unforgiving mechanisms or gimmicky fights (Garlon, Wind lord, Amber). Not sure (in general) people have the patience for that. there are other fun things to do.

    I have to think this is the point. There are other fun things to do...and it might not be raiding as you or I may think that means.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Except, by now, with probably more geared, and if they still find normal too hard, then it is no longer casual, it is bad.

    If you are decent, even raiding 1 night a week, you should at least cleared normal by now, and possibly a few HCs. Talking about time = casual? There are a few groups that I know of only raid 1 night a week and had cleared 9HC, so even if time is a factor, if they haven't even cleared normal by now, even raid 1 night a week, that is bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I have friends who raid casual and they are raiding 3-4 nights a week still and are only 10/16 normal. They wipe alot and are on trying to recruit all the time. I log in and raid and then get back off. I show up on sunday for melee alt run so i can gear a alt for fun and that is my time in wow.
    And this is exactly what has brought us to this topic. Yes, the skill is a bit lower, I won't deny that. But they can't move on because people are leaving and they need to constantly recruit. Which requires time for new members to fit in with the synergy of that group. Then just as they are fitting in, they vanish.

    In the past, the nerfs helped because it allowed a group that wasn't awesome, but still were above average, to progress, which can help with recruitment and help current members stick around because they are actually making progress. The decision to not change the current tier has an impact on those guilds.
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  5. #145
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Are you serious?!
    Stone Guard was and is piss easy. All you need is tanks that know how to taunt. Even the HC variant is very easy... I'd argue it's easier than the normals due to the possibility of outgearing it.

    Only Elegon and Garalon really stand out and both mainly due to strict enrage timers. Loosen those and most raids won't have a problem.
    I can do Stone Guard HC easily, but I know people that struggled with the tank swapping, and that mess up is pretty much raid wipe, as I said first boss shouldn't have this "mess up and instant wipe" mechanics on a FIRST boss, take everyone to half health or below? OK. Instant death? Not so much.

  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    I am one of them XD

    Now I have only 2 weeks to get the Fearless title that comes with Cutting Edge

    There are guilds that likes to progress as well as compare themselves with the server to see where they are, and nerfing contents often screw with that, hence I am liking this "no nerf until next raid tier" thing.
    Good luck getting the title.

    I agree with not nerfing mid tier as well. get it right first time
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  7. #147
    I'm not sure this is why, but i can imagine A LOT of guilds felt they did well in dragon soul with clearing all the content at different stages of the nerfs. This tier might have been a shock to some in terms of difficulty (mainly ToES but also 3 out of 6 bosses in HoF even, heck, even spirit kings). People weren't used to wiping a lot because they maybe saw some progress in dragon soul when it was already nerfed by 5-10%.

    Then also of course a lot of people feel they have to do a lot of shit outside of raiding when raiding is time consuming enough, so it gets too much eventually. Both are plausible explanations i think, but i have definitely noticed a lot of good and bad guilds calling it this tier even though, content wise, it's extremely well made and enjoyable.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    This is just the style of supposedly hardcore raiders. Its very difficult to find a raid group filled with people that have a positive attitude.
    Ironically our raid group gets along just fine because everyone does what is expected of them and doesnt have to be told. It is a mutual respect because the people i raid with are of the same mindset and have raided together for a while now with a few new people in the last few years. When people say something is very difficult and hard when in reality it isnt then there will be differences. When a raid is cleared with people in blues and not by people in 489 and 496 then the raid isnt too difficult but the player base is the issue. Each tier or patch even with class changes take at the most 10 minutes to move around your action bars and respec even reforge if needed.

    In the time most people have been posting on here they could have read any class guide numerous times but the choice for some is to post instead of get better, not all, but some. If downing bosses is what you enjoy then get better, and down them.

    my point about nerfs is that reality check when the next level of content comes out and they do rather horribly because they become accustomed to a 30% buff to their toons. When the buff is gone and it is back to play skill they are irritated wanting to quit and then call the content difficult because they have lost 30% of the dmg they were doing or healing.

    If people want to use time as an excuse, it really isnt if you used it wisely. If you want to progress join with people that think the same way you do. If you research, do good numbers and know your class then make sure to be around the same and you will do well without getting frustrated with difficulty.

    Excellent example, people paying to clear content, great way to build the G bank. Best friend in the game is a casual raider and he comes along and as the content is walked through he mentions the spots where his raid group always wiped. He looks at recount and says you guys are doubling our dps with alts, and healing, and i just said the game is really just numbers. Dont stand in stuff, do your assignment and pull the numbers you should , if everyhone does that you do well.

  9. #149
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Instant death? Not so much.
    Hm. I think it's ok where it is.
    Morchok was killed by 82%. (After a year and after 35% nerfs)
    Stone Guard by 88%.

    If I interpret WoWprogress right, Elegonn seems to be the main PITA for raiders, he stopped almost 30% of the people. oO

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  10. #150
    Our guild recently imploded, but most of that was due to far too much focus solely on progression.

    When I became GM, I've started building us back up using the tripod of "fun, teamwork, progression" where no one is more important the another. I took a shell-shocked bunch that could barely down Stone Guardians after being 6/6 3/6 to getting to Will of the Emperor in one night including one-shotting Elegon and that was something that we never did, even with the "top raiders" who left.

    What I'm keenly aware of as someone who's played since Vanilla is that players who have started late LK or since Cata have a VERY different understanding of what WoW is and what it means to progress. They also have different understandings for how much of their time should be spent on their "main" and a host of other issues.

    This expac was VERY Burning Crusade in how it did things which was fine for me and many old school players, but was a huge shock for newer players who were altoholics, for example, or wanted to raid, but didn't want this much overhead in order to raid.

    In neither LK nor Cata did players have the level of time requirement in order to raid that they do now. That time requirement means either less time on alts or perhaps just not enough time to raid either at the level they preferred or maybe even not at all.

    I'm on a pretty backwater server and I know the only way I'll grow my guild back (and we're making really good progress) is by getting folks to be enthusiastic to play outside of raid. After our meltdown, we had 3 people on the next day. Three weeks later, after I'd been working to fix things, we had 8 people in including 7 people in mumble on a Sunday night at 2 am.

    In order for guilds to survive, we can't solely rely on compelling content. We will have to build our guilds up because we value the people in them. If the guild is just a fairly mercenary raid group without any social ties, it's very likely to fail if it hasn't already. The time commitment to raid competently alone is enough to cause most casual and semi-casual groups to fail if there isn't something else binding them. And we're seeing that.

    This may be unpopular medicine, but far too many guilds were formed because too many folks wanted to be in charge and in LK and Cata it was easy and cheap to do so. Now, making a guild work is far harder and the work of GMs and Officers is MUCH more like that in BC and we see guilds failing left and right because they're focusing solely on content rather than on guild building.

    It'll be even harder in the coming days once 5.2 is out and only some guilds have the people to do the new content while some guilds are still doing 5.0/5.1 content. There will be poaching and shades of the Kara guilds losing players to SSC/TK guilds days. I don't look forward to that drama.

    On a good note, the GMs who value their players and build their guilds organically should be able to build some loyalty and make the transition. Remember, the important part of this game isn't the pixels or loot, it's the people we play with.

  11. #151
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Hm. I think it's ok where it is.
    Morchok was killed by 82%. (After a year and after 35% nerfs)
    Stone Guard by 88%.

    If I interpret WoWprogress right, Elegonn seems to be the main PITA for raiders, he stopped almost 30% of the people. oO
    Elegon requires consistent DPS accross the board is the problem I am betting. A lot of the average guilds have one or two superstars who carry everyone else a bit. When they can't carry, problems ensue.
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Promark View Post
    And this is exactly what has brought us to this topic. Yes, the skill is a bit lower, I won't deny that. But they can't move on because people are leaving and they need to constantly recruit. Which requires time for new members to fit in with the synergy of that group. Then just as they are fitting in, they vanish.

    In the past, the nerfs helped because it allowed a group that wasn't awesome, but still were above average, to progress, which can help with recruitment and help current members stick around because they are actually making progress. The decision to not change the current tier has an impact on those guilds.
    They are really bad and i raided with them on a alt to try and help but they didnt want to make changes so there they sit. They are at 10/16 by choice, they dont want to change out people that are bad so most likely they willl still be there when 5.2 hits ,that isnt difficulty but a unwillingness to swap out people. In that situation then progression doesnt matter because they are choosing to not progress. And if they wont swap people out then good players dont want to join and i stopped raiding with them so they are and will stay at 10/16 normal.

  13. #153
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Promark View Post
    And this is exactly what has brought us to this topic. Yes, the skill is a bit lower, I won't deny that. But they can't move on because people are leaving and they need to constantly recruit. Which requires time for new members to fit in with the synergy of that group. Then just as they are fitting in, they vanish.
    We have that in our main group too.

    New healer (a shammy, only had 9 HC experience), killed Empress on his first night. (2nd night for the group)
    Another new healer (a pally, I think only 6 HC experience), Protector HC on his 3rd night (also 3rd night of progression for group, he started as we start Protector)
    New dps, did HoF with us on his first raid night, cleared up to Empress HC (which was already passed his experience), then ToES Protector and Tsulong (both he never done before), downed Tsulong in 2nd night of progression.

    You don't need THAT much time to fit new people in the group, if they are decent, they know what their class/role should be doing anyway, sure it sucks to replace people, but after a night or 2 it should be enough for the new player to sink in already and throw him on progression boss on 2nd or 3rd night if needed (we generally throw them on first night, they seems to survive fine).

    We are really struggling with 1 tank and 1 healer at the moment, pretty much a new healer every 1 or 2 weeks, but we still progressing regardless.

    That is why I like the old tier, where progression varies hugely from guild to guild, whereas ICC onwards, nearly everyone is progression on LK HC, FL most guilds at Raggy HC, DS most guilds even cleared DW HC, on my server there are even PUGs for that. I like T14 and T11 and older tier (Ulduar for example) where guilds have very varied progression, so when you check WoW Progress you can see a list of very different progression, not all top 20 guilds all at same progression.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Elegon requires consistent DPS accross the board is the problem I am betting. A lot of the average guilds have one or two superstars who carry everyone else a bit. When they can't carry, problems ensue.
    In 10man it is harder to carry people than 25man. When one person dies to dumb shit the other 9 have to pick it up. OR people low on dps or healing kill the raid group but recount will show that and then you make changes. If you see it and dont change then the raid difficulty isnt the problem. People in my guild are given a week to fix any dps or healing problems and then in the following week if things arent fixed they are replaced in the raid. Another week to fix it out of raid then a demotion but people know this and it motivates them.

    When people know they are bad but wont ever loose their spot what is their motivation? Obviously that person that you think is nice and your friend doesnt really care that much to get better and help the other 9 ppl taken time out of life to raid.

  15. #155
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Elegon 10man is a problem if one of the dps died and is an assigned orb killer, or just the dps didn't die but still cannot kill the orb he needed to.

    If either are the case then it is very easy to pick out the person responsible for the wipes (then do something about it)

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mackeyser View Post
    Our guild recently imploded, but most of that was due to far too much focus solely on progression.

    When I became GM, I've started building us back up using the tripod of "fun, teamwork, progression" where no one is more important the another. I took a shell-shocked bunch that could barely down Stone Guardians after being 6/6 3/6 to getting to Will of the Emperor in one night including one-shotting Elegon and that was something that we never did, even with the "top raiders" who left.

    What I'm keenly aware of as someone who's played since Vanilla is that players who have started late LK or since Cata have a VERY different understanding of what WoW is and what it means to progress. They also have different understandings for how much of their time should be spent on their "main" and a host of other issues.

    This expac was VERY Burning Crusade in how it did things which was fine for me and many old school players, but was a huge shock for newer players who were altoholics, for example, or wanted to raid, but didn't want this much overhead in order to raid.

    In neither LK nor Cata did players have the level of time requirement in order to raid that they do now. That time requirement means either less time on alts or perhaps just not enough time to raid either at the level they preferred or maybe even not at all.

    I'm on a pretty backwater server and I know the only way I'll grow my guild back (and we're making really good progress) is by getting folks to be enthusiastic to play outside of raid. After our meltdown, we had 3 people on the next day. Three weeks later, after I'd been working to fix things, we had 8 people in including 7 people in mumble on a Sunday night at 2 am.

    In order for guilds to survive, we can't solely rely on compelling content. We will have to build our guilds up because we value the people in them. If the guild is just a fairly mercenary raid group without any social ties, it's very likely to fail if it hasn't already. The time commitment to raid competently alone is enough to cause most casual and semi-casual groups to fail if there isn't something else binding them. And we're seeing that.

    This may be unpopular medicine, but far too many guilds were formed because too many folks wanted to be in charge and in LK and Cata it was easy and cheap to do so. Now, making a guild work is far harder and the work of GMs and Officers is MUCH more like that in BC and we see guilds failing left and right because they're focusing solely on content rather than on guild building.

    It'll be even harder in the coming days once 5.2 is out and only some guilds have the people to do the new content while some guilds are still doing 5.0/5.1 content. There will be poaching and shades of the Kara guilds losing players to SSC/TK guilds days. I don't look forward to that drama.

    On a good note, the GMs who value their players and build their guilds organically should be able to build some loyalty and make the transition. Remember, the important part of this game isn't the pixels or loot, it's the people we play with.
    I think grouping with people that have the same goals and mindset is what makes top end guilds do well. We do well because everyone their wants to be top dps or heals, everyone wants to rape progression and be the top on the server and ranked well in the US. People bs in vent while looking up numbers or various info. on class changes and we look at the strong class changes, what classes are going to be top dps and heals. If you get together with the same mindset the amount of arguing is next to nothing and progression just happens without a lot of turnover or stress.

  17. #157
    we've had to recruit 2 people in the last 2 years(one because his laptop blew up and he wont have 1 for a while, and the other because of change in work schedule.) i hate recruiting so much

  18. #158
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I think grouping with people that have the same goals and mindset is what makes top end guilds do well. We do well because everyone their wants to be top dps or heals, everyone wants to rape progression and be the top on the server and ranked well in the US. People bs in vent while looking up numbers or various info. on class changes and we look at the strong class changes, what classes are going to be top dps and heals. If you get together with the same mindset the amount of arguing is next to nothing and progression just happens without a lot of turnover or stress.
    Pretty much this. If you have 2 people that want more, you will get Drama. If you have 2 people that don't want to put in the effort, you will get drama.
    It's very hard however, to find a guild where everyone wants the same as you do for normal folks. It's not that much of a problem for top progression players.

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  19. #159
    Mechagnome GotMoxie's Avatar
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    I'm honestly surprised to see this many people in the same boat, because I really thought that it was only because my realm - Horde-side at least - is basically withering on the vine. We've lost two core raiders in the last month or so, due to one wanting to play her alt in a non-raiding guild and one preferring his main in a HM guild (understandable). We filled the spots but have to relearn the fights because the replacements are less experienced. I don't mind, but a couple folks get impatient and I have to remind them that we were all learning at one point.

    My last guild, the GM just stopped logging on. He was also our RL and we had little to no communication as to where he'd gone. Folks said, if he can't be bothered then why should I? Finding 4 DPS for a 10man group is remarkably difficult, we found. Eventually, the guild all but fell apart aside from one or two holdouts.
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  20. #160
    Pit Lord Martinussen's Avatar
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    Funny, because i joined a guild 10man heroic rading guild a few weeks ago, which has upgraded to 25 hc raiding. Currently 10/16 heroic. Missing Empress, WotE and all of ToES on HC. Empress is close to falling and so is WotE.

    But before that i felt the same as you. Joining a guild, steady progression and then we hit a small obstacle and suddenly people stop showing up for raids.
    "When you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you'll be successful"
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