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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Pretty much this. If you have 2 people that want more, you will get Drama. If you have 2 people that don't want to put in the effort, you will get drama.
    It's very hard however, to find a guild where everyone wants the same as you do for normal folks. It's not that much of a problem for top progression players.
    This is why I told a friend to recruit all of the time even with a full raid group. Talk to the people that are low and try to help them, if they dont want help use them to raid but recruit all of the time looking for a better player. You slowly over time drop the lesser performing players for better players and over time you get better.

  2. #162
    my guild started expansion with 10 man team, now we have 3 teams +plus lots of pvp/casual plaers. Don't see any issue tbh.
    and all this talk about "it's not worth to raid now because t15 lfr gear will be better" is such a bullshit. You might aswell never play and wait for last wow expansion and last tier of it.

  3. #163
    Elemental Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    and all this talk about "it's not worth to raid now because t15 lfr gear will be better" is such a bullshit.
    Raiding will never be worth it, when you don't have fun doing it.

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  4. #164
    Herald of the Titans Pancaspe's Avatar
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    It has always happened.

    People forget BC was nicknamed "The Guild Killer"
    @Ghostcrawler:Some advice: [My pet issue] is why there were sub losses is one of the weaker arguments players use. Players don't have that data.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Raiding will never be worth it, when you don't have fun doing it.
    well yeah, it's kinda obvious, isn't it? You are not a part of raiding guild if you don't like it.

  6. #166
    The Patient Tumadre80's Avatar
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    Yeah because like 6% of guilds have completed content, maybe even less. I consider my guild pretty good and we're 10/16 HC right now, no chance of finishing..

    Back in my day, we killed bosses 400 times a day...uphill both ways...in the snow...and we fucking liked it. In related news, I hear that uninstalling WoW completely from your hard drive and then reinstalling it resets your RNG numbers. -septor

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumadre80 View Post
    Yeah because like 6% of guilds have completed content, maybe even less. I consider my guild pretty good and we're 10/16 HC right now, no chance of finishing..
    HC is supposed to be like that.

    I don't even consider myself (and a fair number of people in my group) top nosh raiders, but we are 15/16 HC.

    HC last boss is supposed to be like the rare few % of very top guild only, if I somehow managed to kill it within next 2 weeks then I probably considered too easy, as I don't think I should be good enough for that kill.

  8. #168
    Brewmaster Help ol Gil Out's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    They are really bad and i raided with them on a alt to try and help but they didnt want to make changes so there they sit. They are at 10/16 by choice, they dont want to change out people that are bad so most likely they willl still be there when 5.2 hits ,that isnt difficulty but a unwillingness to swap out people. In that situation then progression doesnt matter because they are choosing to not progress. And if they wont swap people out then good players dont want to join and i stopped raiding with them so they are and will stay at 10/16 normal.
    I know exactly what you mean. I was in a 'raiding' guild which had players I knew since TBC and that made me feel as though I had to stay through the thick and thin which often resulted in many, many facepalm moments from several of the the core group that we picked up since Cata.

    I have since stopped playing WoW since December because I got tired of the bad players within the guild. Being in a 10 man group, it was easy to see who would be dragging their feet through progression and rather than it being one bad apple, it turned out to be three or four who consistently made raiding much more painful than it needed to be. Whether it was the lack of understanding their class, tunnel vision, or just being bad in general, it just became too much and took all the enjoyment out of raiding which is what I played for.

    As an example to some of their quality, I sat in on Vent last week to hear how things were going and out GM/RL was still explaining how the Guardians fight worked to some players who have been doing it for months and months. I wish I could say this only happens on Guardians (and even that's embarrassing) but it happened for every boss. I facepalmed hard and realized how they can still be 6/16 [normal] since I left.

    Now, from what I understand, some of the better players in the guild raid with another guild on a Saturday with their alts and clear content no problem, even going in to heroics. What they and their alts do in a day equals to the full progression and months of work with our guild and it just leaves me stunned. Even pugs are turning away at this point when our GM calls out for slots to fill because the pugs know they can get in on better runs if they wait a little.

    Case in point, some players such as myself just got fed up with having to carry the bad players. I respect the guild as a whole and the handful of good players within it but it just became too much of a burden to play with others who needed explanation time and time again and half-assed their way through. Benching players becomes nearly impossible with a small pool of quality or even decent pugs and when the pugs begin to turn your offer down to fill a slot, well, you either cancel the raid or go with what you have and hope for the best.

  9. #169
    It really depends on your server, I think. Top servers look just as good or better than ever, but on your average or below average server, there really isn't much you can do unless your guild is a stand-out guild and you recruit from another realm, and if you aren't like 12/16H or better no fucks will be given about your guild. I thought my server was depressing during Cata but it's just downright horrible now, and there are somehow like 75ish US servers worse than ours. I see a huge spread of talent from really good to really horrible in the few guilds that are on my server that are into heroic progression, and there are clearly some talented players that are being held back because they have people in there that are just filling the spot, basically, because there is no one better to do it. That includes my own guild.

    I feel a lot of this is because the talent is so spread out due to 10 man guilds. When you had 25 back in Wrath and prior, you couldn't just start a new guild with some random people out of the blue and expect to get anywhere, growing a guild was a long process. Nowadays is seems that everyone thinks starting a new guild is a great idea instead of trying to join an existing one to make it better.
    Last edited by PBitt; 2013-02-15 at 10:09 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    HC is supposed to be like that.
    Arguments of this form are worthless. They're basically appeals to authority, without any justification.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  11. #171
    same here many guilds have just stopped raiding including my last guild

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    It has always happened.

    People forget BC was nicknamed "The Guild Killer"
    I think that had more to do with the raid size changes.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  13. #173
    Brewmaster Help ol Gil Out's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    It has always happened.

    People forget BC was nicknamed "The Guild Killer"
    Everything is 'nick named' the Guild Killer these days though.

  14. #174
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Arguments of this form are worthless. They're basically appeals to authority, without any justification.
    Well it is all my opinions anyway (sorry didn't state).

    It should always have been like Sunwell, KJ, only the very top guilds should have been able to kill, and Algalon.

    If even I can just step in and kill Sha HC, I would feel it is too easy, as I don't think people of my calibre should be able to.

  15. #175
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    OP noticed 3 guilds falling apart and that is..like "lots"? Dunno..isn't that "anecdotal evidence". I have noticed people claiming all kinds of things and also claiming any new feature introduced "killing guilds"

    Ah well..at least now with nostalgia "My guild broke on M'uru" is a badge of honor and nowadays used as a "this x-pac sucks because my guild didn't break up" argument as for how fantastic TBC was.

    People on forums are weird...

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 11:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Well it is all my opinions anyway (sorry didn't state).

    It should always have been like Sunwell, KJ, only the very top guilds should have been able to kill, and Algalon.

    If even I can just step in and kill Sha HC, I would feel it is too easy, as I don't think people of my calibre should be able to.
    WTF are you even talking about? 465 guild killed heroic Sha of fear. 1% of the raiders. That is too easy for you? You are one of the best 5000 players of 10 million WoW players and "ppl like you shouldn't be able to"? Well, let me see your empiric data how many people did clear SWP. I swear...it probably is 450 guilds and 1% of the raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 11:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Raiding will never be worth it, when you don't have fun doing it.
    Quoted for bloody truth. I mean..guys..where were you in the last 8 years? Greens in TBC were better than T2 raid epics. I couldn't believe it would be that way, but it is true. Ever since TBC you KNEW that the greens of the next x-pac would ANNIHILATE your epics that you "worked so hard for". And lo and behold..it was the same with LK, Cata and MoP..and EVERY new tier since tier 2 obliterated the previous tier.

    The only difference used to be (in TBC) that you needed yout T1 to do T2 and your..oh wait...5 man nat res gear to tackle T 2.5 and your attunements to progress in T4 and T5 and T6
    Last edited by det; 2013-02-15 at 10:31 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #176
    Elemental Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    well yeah, it's kinda obvious, isn't it? You are not a part of raiding guild if you don't like it.
    No it is not. That's the point of my statement. Many people raid for the purples but do not enjoy the process.
    These are the peeps that constantly state that wiping on a boss isn't fun and ask that the boss is nerfed so they can collect their loot faster.
    These also are the first "raiders" to drop activity if a new Tier is announced. (Sudden real life issues until new patch is deployed)

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  17. #177
    Pit Lord Malgru's Avatar
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    Our server died which caused vodka to leave and our guild to disband. There is only 1 guild who even raids anymore and I am now the highest experienced player with a main on the server. And i'm only 2100. It's pretty sad.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    It's more that this was an extremely large tier, with a shitton of roadblocks and skewed class balance due to an unforseen need for multi-dots and cleaves.
    It's because it's the first tier of the expansion...where the encounters are balanced around people having an ilvl equal to what they have when they start (dungeon blues). Subsequent tiers will be balanced around people having an ilvl lower than what they have when they start (normals from the previous tier), hence they will be facerolled by any guild with a few hc kills. (like T12/13 were)

    That's what causes all the QQ about guilds not progressing fast enough...it's not to do with the current tier being too hard, it's to do with the previous 2 tiers being too easy. (T12/13 in this case when compared to T14, and T9/10 when compared to T11)

    (hopefully I'm wrong about this and they've dropped the Cata progression model, I definitely don't want to be clearing the place on normal within a week)

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Raiding will never be worth it, when you don't have fun doing it.
    Pretty much this. I don't raid anymore. HToC in Wrath broke raiding for me. I started to do Icecrown, cleared the fist wing the night it was released and just never went back. I can't be arsed anymore. I'd rather play my alts, quest and do a ton of other things the game offers.

    Why should I commit to a set bunch of nights and times to log on anyways? I can just as easily queue up for a LFR if the mood strikes, and not be tied down. Hell, I can even decide to do only one boss and log and still be able to go back and finish the rest at my own pace.

    That is why you guys are having a hard time recruiting and keeping players.

  20. #180
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Can't blame them. This teir is rather boring. For the first time in years i was bored of raiding so i stopped as well. I raided all ICC and all DS and didn't get bored and they were out for a year and the other for months. Yet i was bored of this teir in 3 weeks and yes i did get some heroic bosses down. There are also alot of people i know that have also raided for years that have stopped. By boring i mean the fight mechanics are the some ones that have been used in bosses years ago. Hell some didn't even make it one teir before being reused.
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