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  1. #21
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Okay but the main reason the Horde is at war with the Alliance is BECAUSE THEY'RE WITH THE FORSAKEN.
    So.. So.. So wrong...

    It could well be one of the factors that the alliance want to war with the horde because of some of the things the forsaken have done, but likewise, the forsaken have zero dam reason to trust anything humans want, and are just as just in pushing the humans from there lands.

    The alliance claiming lordearon belongs to them, when it really belongs to the forsaken, yeah, thats reason enough to want to strike back against the humans.

    Also, you try and make it sound like the forsaken being the sole reason for the war carrying on, your really just not paying enough attention to detail. The orcs faught humans, the humans captured and made slaves of orcs, the orcs faught back and won there freedom, the orcs left those lands and travelled to kalimdor, the humans followed and tried to wipe them out, the orcs faught back, the orcs tried to build in there new lands, the night elves attacked them for cutting trees down, the orcas faught back... and so on and so on.

    I'm sorry, you might not like this, but there is ALWAYS a reason for both sides to go to war, and it IS NOT just on the bases of what one group did, there is ALWAYS a two sided coin. Deal With It.

  2. #22
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Varians stupid racist impulse against the whole Horde led to Garrosh's Horde.
    Which was AFTER the Wrath Gate. Had nothing to do with the Forsaken coming into the Horde.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    I'm all for consistent lore, but "sadly" isn't the way to put it. They shouldn't break gameplay balance for lore in any circumstance. This isn't an excuse nor is it a reason for Blizzard to butcher the lore but things like territory/population balance must always take a front seat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 08:15 PM ----------



    The main reason they are at war with each other is a mutual fear of one another. It was fear of war which lead to the inclusion of the forsaken. In Vanilla the powers were in a state of cold war and territory in the EK would improve the western horde's security, ergo Thrall let them join. No one foresaw wrathgate not even Sylvanas, and Varians stupid racist impulse against the whole Horde led to Garrosh's Horde.
    Not really. There was a truce between the factions after the lich king fell, and Garrosh's actions are not indicated to have anything to do with Varian's outburst in the undercity. Garrosh's invasions into Ashenvale, Gilneas and the island where Vashj'ir were are not indicated to be in response to Varian in any way.

  4. #24
    I always figured that the majority of Frostwolves never left the mountains, and only a small number followed Thrall to Durotar. And most of those eventually went back home to the mountains when they felt their mission/adventure was done.

  5. #25
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    You know OP, you're right. Thinking about it, it makes no sense that the Frostwolves went forward and back. I mean, if they truly believed in a peaceful Horde, they'd have stayed and helped Thrall for good. If they wanted to sit somewhere a bit away from orcs, they could have stood in Azshara or yes, even Winterspring.

  6. #26
    Thrall was not an idiot. If you want peace you must prepare for war. There was too much tension between the alliance and the horde even after the battle against the BC so battles and conflict would come in time, maybe in weeks, months or years but it would come a time were the Horde should prepared to fight. Having a chance to have control in the EK was one of his goals. Think about it, it would split the alliance forces and they could also have local military power.

    Its doesnt actually matter if the Frostwolves were there or went there. The thing is that sooner or later there were going to be horde forces in that strategic part of EK that has been desolated and without rightfull owner. Forsaken needed help to build somekind of nation and the horde needed a bastion there.

    If the Horde never went to EK the forsaken would have been whiped most probable(the horde gave support in the campaings of Arathi Basin and without Alterac the alliance would focus north) and the alliance would have taken most lordaeron, the "blood elves" would also join the alliance eventually after seeing that they are their chance for survival, this puts the horde in a weak place in long term.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    The main reason they are at war with each other is a mutual fear of one another. It was fear of war which lead to the inclusion of the forsaken. In Vanilla the powers were in a state of cold war and territory in the EK would improve the western horde's security, ergo Thrall let them join. No one foresaw wrathgate not even Sylvanas, and Varians stupid racist impulse against the whole Horde led to Garrosh's Horde.
    You're kind of ignoring the murder of everybody in southshore and hillsbrad and the Horde offing tons of dalaran magi for the forsaken in Vanilla too, plus Forsaken assasinating druids in Ashenvale in Vanilla.

    There was no 'cold war' until the Forsaken screwed things up, relationships with the humans and night elves were rocky but the Forsaken flat out have done more to harm relations than anyone else.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 06:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So.. So.. So wrong...

    It could well be one of the factors that the alliance want to war with the horde because of some of the things the forsaken have done, but likewise, the forsaken have zero dam reason to trust anything humans want, and are just as just in pushing the humans from there lands.

    The alliance claiming lordearon belongs to them, when it really belongs to the forsaken, yeah, thats reason enough to want to strike back against the humans.

    Also, you try and make it sound like the forsaken being the sole reason for the war carrying on, your really just not paying enough attention to detail. The orcs faught humans, the humans captured and made slaves of orcs, the orcs faught back and won there freedom, the orcs left those lands and travelled to kalimdor, the humans followed and tried to wipe them out, the orcs faught back, the orcs tried to build in there new lands, the night elves attacked them for cutting trees down, the orcas faught back... and so on and so on.

    I'm sorry, you might not like this, but there is ALWAYS a reason for both sides to go to war, and it IS NOT just on the bases of what one group did, there is ALWAYS a two sided coin. Deal With It.
    Humans living in hillsbrad have just as much right to the land as the Forsaken. The fact that attacks against them didn't get the Forsaken kicked out of the Horde by Thrall is boggling.


    you make it sound like every orc was a slave when in reality that practice wasn't that widespread. There were a few orcs that got picked on at every camp like Burx and the one female orc slave mentioned in Lord of the Clans, but people like Thrall and Burx were the exception. Most sat around like lumps due to the lethargy.

    I'm not saying it's not two sided but the Forsaken have done WAY more than any other faction to provide the Alliance with justification for not trusting the Horde.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Blizz needed a reason for the orcs and dwarves to fight :\ not much really to it.

    In WC3 Thrall was pretty content to leave the EK alone, it was never really explained why he wanted to Ally with the Forsaken or have the frostwolves back there.
    The Tauren convinced Thrall to admit the Forsaken. They wanted to redeem the Forsaken.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Tauren convinced Thrall to admit the Forsaken. They wanted to redeem the Forsaken.
    And yet that hasn't been mentioned since Vanilla.

    Plus they retconned it OVER AND OVER again.

    One time it was magatha who got them in, another time it was hamuul, and another time it wasn't just the tauren it was the bloody earthen ring.

    It's bunk and it doesn't make any sense.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    They did, they really did, it's the only reason why Thrall accepted the Forsaken. And his decision has proved a wise one, The Horde would have long lost the war against the Alliance without a powerful ally half way across the world, the Alliance would have full control of an entire continent and the Blood Elves would not have been part of the Horde.
    And the Wrathgate debacle would never have happened, and so there would never have been that spark that turned it into a full on war against each other

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    And yet that hasn't been mentioned since Vanilla.

    Plus they retconned it OVER AND OVER again.

    One time it was magatha who got them in, another time it was hamuul, and another time it wasn't just the tauren it was the bloody earthen ring.

    It's bunk and it doesn't make any sense.
    why does it need to be a retcon? I dont see these events as being mutually exclusive, they could have all chipped in. (though i've never heard of the earthen ring being involved). It was an alliance of convenience that solidified (though still shaky) over time. The horde had a lot to gain by welcoming the forsaken.

  12. #32
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Which was AFTER the Wrath Gate. Had nothing to do with the Forsaken coming into the Horde.
    Another thing is that Varian see what Horrors forsaken commited to his people during battle for undercity. It was all under Thrall Leadership, so declare war was pretty reasonable imo at least.

  13. #33
    Why did they return? They never left!

    When the Frostwolves refused to drink the blood they were exiled, they fled into Azeroth and settled in AV staying hidden until Thrall later found them.

    After Thrall united the clans majority of the new horde left as per Medivh's instructions, the bulk of the Frostwolves remained in AV.

    Later on during Vanilla the Stormpikes arrived in AV to do their excavations, triggering the battle for AV BG with Horde and Alliance rallying behind either side. (no winners mentioned in lore)

    As of Cata and the Shattering, Drek is older wheelchair bound and frail but he still leads the clan in AV.

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