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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So... likely going to still swap between FoJ/SoJ and BoG/SoT depending on comp, counter comp, and/or map.

    But

    Will you be running HA or SW now?

    HA means you can:
    1) Run split CDs to have HA, AW, HA, AW every 60 sec's for some more reliable burst. HA's passive dmg increase on HoPo gen's is nothing to sneeze at.
    2) Run coupled CDs as a Swifty macro and be a 2 min wonder instead of a 2/3/5 thing going on. Huge burst, but hope you have your trinket up for the CC chain(s).

    SW means you can:
    1) Have 30 sec's of AW every 2 mins, for 25% uptime. This also allows faster HoW casts, in case/when we are kited. The longer duration is nice for a few other reasons too. We're far more likely to have usable time on target with wings, since CC will be on DR in that 30 seconds. Likewise, we can glyph AW for a % heal (albeit small) that now lasts 30 sec @ 25% uptime.

    Personally, I still like HA because I'm used to it and prefer the options it affords, but SW looks good on paper and seems to benefit MORE from the new 4pc than HA.

    Thoughts?
    HA is also a better defensive CD as well...you can pop HA then judge, WoG, CS, WoG...the healing u get from that can save your life
    SA you still have to build up 3 HoPo but it will come a bit faster since HoW is on a faster CD

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    HA is also a better defensive CD as well...you can pop HA then judge, WoG, CS, WoG...the healing u get from that can save your life
    SA you still have to build up 3 HoPo but it will come a bit faster since HoW is on a faster CD
    I've done this multiple times, only to find that I can't get myself up at all. When getting trained the heals from Word of Glory seem to do nothing. The damage from a Warrior will out do the heals of Holy Avenger spam + WoG. I usually have Wings up along with HA.

    Just reminds of the scene where Lakez says, "Ret can heals my balls!"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...UXAe1nU#t=191s
    Last edited by Dukenukemx; 2013-02-19 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I've done this multiple times, only to find that I can't get myself up at all. When getting trained the heals from Word of Glory seem to do nothing. The damage from a Warrior will out do the heals of Holy Avenger spam + WoG. I usually have Wings up along with HA.
    Sadly, since the PVP power nerf, this has been the case more often than not. Chaining ~30-35k WOGs every 3 secs will not save you from any real pressure, and you've now blown your HA just to delay the inevitable. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand (and use when possible) the effect that HA's HoPo influx can create for self/group healing, but until the 5.2 PVP power changes, you're not getting the full potential out of the ability using it to spam WOG, IMO.

    Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and putting your opposition on the defensive can save your life faster than WOGspam*.

    *Offer not valid against warriors or mages, void where prohibited, restrictions apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    I've heard people parade around saying "ret is fixed!" for too damn long now. I'll believe it when I see it.
    It isn't, virtually all the buffs are actually trade-offs. The improvements are minimal, do nothing for RBGs, and are generally very badly thought out and will lead to all sorts of unforeseen problems (our healing bonus being dumped into Flash of Light for example might be very bad for survivability)...

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    It isn't, virtually all the buffs are actually trade-offs. The improvements are minimal, do nothing for RBGs, and are generally very badly thought out and will lead to all sorts of unforeseen problems (our healing bonus being dumped into Flash of Light for example might be very bad for survivability)...
    We continue to get balanced around the wrong things. Antiquated things like Bubble. Unrealistic things like hard-casted FoL's for survival. Clunky things like multiple burst cooldowns on staggered timers. And even annoying, hand-me-down mechanic things like Inquisition and the TfB SoJ knockoff.

    We constantly get told we can't have nice thing X, because we "already have Y!". Well, we don't want Y, Y hasn't been useful for an expansion and a half, or isn't feasible now. And we're the only class/spec without X. So then we get "Fine, you can have X, but you have to give up Z for it". WTF, we finally got Z after 4 years and now we have to give it up just to get X like everyone else? "Well, yeah, cause you already have Y!" Repeat ad nauseum.

    The spec needs an overhaul or it's going to continue the downward trend. We've gotten so many band-aid fixes that the class is more band-aid than actual substance. And what's worse, is that we still have the same injury in the first place.

    I'm not one to complain or nay-say, because there ARE things ret does well. Sadly, those things (like soloing old content and farming random scrubs in BGs) are not really useful or relevant to "real" play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    We continue to get balanced around the wrong things. Antiquated things like Bubble. Unrealistic things like hard-casted FoL's for survival. Clunky things like multiple burst cooldowns on staggered timers. And even annoying, hand-me-down mechanic things like Inquisition and the TfB SoJ knockoff.

    We constantly get told we can't have nice thing X, because we "already have Y!". Well, we don't want Y, Y hasn't been useful for an expansion and a half, or isn't feasible now. And we're the only class/spec without X. So then we get "Fine, you can have X, but you have to give up Z for it". WTF, we finally got Z after 4 years and now we have to give it up just to get X like everyone else? "Well, yeah, cause you already have Y!" Repeat ad nauseum.

    The spec needs an overhaul or it's going to continue the downward trend. We've gotten so many band-aid fixes that the class is more band-aid than actual substance. And what's worse, is that we still have the same injury in the first place.

    I'm not one to complain or nay-say, because there ARE things ret does well. Sadly, those things (like soloing old content and farming random scrubs in BGs) are not really useful or relevant to "real" play.
    This review defines completely the situation retribution paladin

  7. #187
    I wish Blizzard would just accidentally revert ret back to WotLK, no ruby shades, but LITERALLY solves every single issue with ret right now, cleave, instant repentance, good sustain damage outside of CDs, useful wings against healers, more holy damage, judgement of justice, 50% disarm reduction from PoJ, blind/fear reduction from holy tree, instant FoL baseline, no wonky wog, no wonky inquisition.

    I really can't think of ANYTHING that was worse back then than now. Mages still countered every melee, you could even go prot and dunk, and have insane survivability.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by thegoodrogue View Post
    I wish Blizzard would just accidentally revert ret back to WotLK, no ruby shades, but LITERALLY solves every single issue with ret right now, cleave, instant repentance, good sustain damage outside of CDs, useful wings against healers, more holy damage, judgement of justice, 50% disarm reduction from PoJ, blind/fear reduction from holy tree, instant FoL baseline, no wonky wog, no wonky inquisition.

    I really can't think of ANYTHING that was worse back then than now. Mages still countered every melee, you could even go prot and dunk, and have insane survivability.
    Yeah, Holy Power was a neat idea and all, but introducing such a major change to a spec that clearly gets very little development attention was a recipe for failure. Ret has been spinning its wheels since early cata... a spec that barely gets any attention cannot afford overhauls, because the real problems never get addressed. They should have kept Ret simple, since they are obviously not willing to put in the time to keep a complex version of Ret working well.

  9. #189
    I did an analysis on the paladin skills compared to the other classes and made ​​a list of changes that in my opinion make the paladin viable one more time and give a gameplay more efficient.


    # Skill Changes:

    - Avenging Wrath: 2min cd
    - Seal of Insight: No longer heals the paladin
    - Sacred Shield: Applies the Sacred Shield on a friendly target that lasts 5min. Sacred Shield: When hit points reach less than 35% the sacred shield is activated absorbing 35% of the maximum points and lasts 15sec or limit absorption. cd 8s. Just a Sacred Shield can be active at a paladin. Limit (1) target
    - Fist of Justice: Baseline. cd 30s
    - Blinding Light: Become a talent
    - Seal of Justice: Physical attacks cause additional damage holy 20% and reduces the target's speed by 50% for 6s
    - Burden of Guilt: [REMOVED]
    - Divine Protection: Reduces all damage taken by 20% for 10s. Also removes and grants immunity to Fear, Sap and Incapacitate effects for the duration of Divine Protection. 1min cd.
    - Hammer of Wrath: When the target is 20% less hitpoints the damage will always be critical.
    - Glyph of Exorcism: Your Exorcim now removes one beneficial effect from an enemy target but increase 10s cooldown.
    - Absolve (hands of sacrifice): [REMOVED]

    # Talent Tree

    Tier 1
    - Speed ​​of Light
    - Long Arm of the Law
    - Pursuit of Justice

    Tier 2
    - Blinding Light: Blind all targets within 8 yards for 3s. Instant. 1min cd
    - Repetance
    - Silence:new Silence the target for 4s. Instant. 25s cd

    Tier 3
    - Selfless Healer
    - Eternal Flame
    - Battle Healer:new Passive: Heals the paladin and allies near 20% of the damage done; Use: Heals the paladin and allies near 50% of the damage dealt. Lasts 15s. 1.5min cd

    Tier 4
    - Hand of Purity: Removes all harmful Magic effects from the target and reduces 20% of all damage taken during 8s. 45s cd
    - Unbreakable Spirit: Passive: Reduces the 50% cooldown of Divine Shield, Devotion Aura, Divine Protection and Lay on Hands
    - Divine Emancipate:new Removes all movement impairing effects and stunning effects. 1min cd. Replaces Emancipate

    Tier 5
    - Holy Avenger
    - Sanctified Wrath
    - Divine Purpose

    Tier 6
    - Holy Prism: Best Animation LOL
    - Light Storm:new Involves the paladin with a holy light causing damage and reducing the speed by 50% for all enemies and healing all allies within 10 yards of the paladin. Lasts 14s. 1min cd
    - Execution Sentence: Reduce the duration to 6s and become undispelable. 30s cd


    Of course everything I've done are just ideas and need to be improved and corrected. Value are purely based on my thoughts and may have been very nonstandard. So I ask that if possible comment and say what you think of these changes.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoodrogue View Post
    I wish Blizzard would just accidentally revert ret back to WotLK, no ruby shades, but LITERALLY solves every single issue with ret right now, cleave, instant repentance, good sustain damage outside of CDs, useful wings against healers, more holy damage, judgement of justice, 50% disarm reduction from PoJ, blind/fear reduction from holy tree, instant FoL baseline, no wonky wog, no wonky inquisition.

    I really can't think of ANYTHING that was worse back then than now. Mages still countered every melee, you could even go prot and dunk, and have insane survivability.
    Wings was dispellable. But look what we had to give up in order to get to this point. 90% of dps cooldowns weren't dispellable, but for some reason wings was, hell, it was even spell-stealable.

    Holy Power was a fine addition, but they really shouldn't have stripped literally every single strong passive Ret had. And for some reason they have let Shadow keep cleanse, while no other hybrids get to cleanse magic? Talk about utility. (Oh wait I forgot ours is gonna be attached to another ability we have that is actually one of the strong aspects of Ret, and it will be a 2 minute CD cleanse! Exciting.)

    Apologize for the nay-saying, but at this point, after discussing Ret on these forums for the entire 5.2 PTR from the day they admitted that Ret was in a shitty spot, they have targeted all the wrong spots to fix. Literally every single one.

    AW should have been 2 minutes, it has been this way for years. It should never have been dispellable.
    But for some reason, we have to give up a strong 4 set for this considering Ret is the train target of choice on any comp we are in, except maybe with an Elemental shaman.

    SoJ change was too clunky of a mechanic, could have been made much better, and needed to keep pvp utility on it or it will NEVER beat censure as a choice. Albeit a snare, denounce effect, mind-numbing, make your choice Blizzard, but if you want it to be used in PVP, it needs to have PvP utility.

    Absolve: I touched on this.

    TV glyph change is the only actual raw buff except the 20% SoJ buff. But none of this lowered our burst during CD's to give us a more threatening presence outside of them. The TV buff will help on the survivability point, probably, though I would have liked something akin to what Improved Righteous Fury did in the past, so it was 100% uptime without requiring us to have a proc, or be on a target. (If we are unable to stick to our target, Exo is our only source of the glyph, about a 30% uptime or so depending on haste.)

    PvP Power "buff:" How is this even considered a buff? It's only half as effective as it was for Ret in 5.0.

    FOL Buff: What? Our flash heal built up over 15-18 seconds does more than 35kish to ourselves now? While a buff, this really should have happened in 5.1 when they crushed PvP Power scaling for Hybrids.

    What they still haven't done is given a reason for people to take Ret on their 3's team or RBG team. Want a dps that can dispell CC's? Why not bring a priest? The priest is ranged, can aoe cleanse, cleanse bubbles, purge spam, has a lot of instant cast high-sustained, and stronger offhealing capabilities(I know it is getting nerfed, will probably still be pretty strong considering PWS can be thrown on other targets and their 90 talents already do pretty strong healing if used well: Halo)

    Want a class with strong dps cooldowns for your RBG's? Wait... boomkins bring that, are ranged, and bring the infamous combo. Warriors can CD stack too, and can FC. Monks have stronger sustained and my monk on the PTR in Tyrannicals brew cooldown increases damage done by like 50%. And damage outside of it isn't even that bad. DK's have grip, rogues have smoke bomb, etc. Other than that, Ferals and Enhance are about the only other class stuck in our position. All 3 melee could be better replaced by other specs because nothing unique or interesting is brought. Ferals upside? Burst and Cyclone. Other classes can do these, plus have aoe CC like shockwave.

    But don't worry guys. Frost Mages and such are receiving buffs yet again, while somewhat half-assed fixes are thrown at Ret. Calling it now, 5.2 will launch and Ret will still be in a bad spot and there will be continued forum anger, and Blizzard will have round 2 of Ret fixing in 5.3. Just going to repeat the cycle.

    The 200 extra pvp power addition to our 2 set, btw, isn't something Ret needs either. Blizzard needs to give them a new mechanic, not small little damage tweaks. I mean it is a buff to our sustained, but it also buffs our burst just as much.

    Sorry for the wall of text.

  11. #191
    Yay, they made Avenging Wrath 2 min baseline so we get to keep the current 4pc. Given that we had a PvE damage buff coming anyway, I still don't see what's so hard about giving us something between cooldowns. I still think Inquisition is the way to go. Make most of the Inquisition buff passive and give us the rest back as a big finisher with a 30 sec cd. So, 15% Holy damage and 10% crit passive, and the other 15% Holy damage as a Holy DoT on a 30 sec cd.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-20 at 12:53 AM.

  12. #192
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    I believe every class should have their strong suit, ret's strong suit is Arenas, asking to be good at everything is not realistic.

    Words to live by.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I believe every class should have their strong suit, ret's strong suit is Arenas, asking to be good at everything is not realistic.
    Are you talking about Gurabashi arena?

    No, Ret is currently not strong in arenas, and has been good for only maybe 15% - 20% of the time that Arena has existed. There are currently not even any names for any 3s comp with a Ret in it.

    Also, apparently you missed the part where everything is a Frost Mage's "strong suit". Plenty of other specs are doing very well in numerous aspects of PvP as well, Warriors, Shadowpriests, Warlocks, Resto Shamans... all are very good in both arena and rbgs.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-20 at 01:20 AM.

  14. #194
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Are you talking about Gurabashi arena?

    No, Ret is currently not strong in arenas, and has been good for only maybe 15% - 20% of the time that Arena has existed. There are currently not even any names for any 3s comp with a Ret in it.

    Also, apparently you missed the part where everything is a Frost Mage's "strong suit".
    Mages stink in arenas... at least the ones i've played against have... and i'm not exactly new to arenas.

    But I understand your defense, everyone wants their favorite class to be the best.

    Words to live by.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Mages stink in arenas... at least the ones i've played against have... and i'm not exactly new to arenas.

    But I understand your defense, everyone wants their favorite class to be the best.
    Frost mages stink in arenas? Frost mages are widely considered to be the best Arena spec of all time...

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    The main problem is " I have gigantic wings on my back quick come cc me " for our burst.

    The secondary problem is " here is a pretty shell around me as I have bubbled kill me when it's gone " for our defense.
    I think if Blizzard could they'd give big flashy graphics to every class' major CDs. Everything is meant to be counterable.

    Pro PVPers all have addons that tell them when you pop something anyway.
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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Mages stink in arenas... at least the ones i've played against have... and i'm not exactly new to arenas.

    But I understand your defense, everyone wants their favorite class to be the best.
    Uh, what? You must not be playing above like 1k rating then, honestly. Frost Mages have been a top pvp spec since the inception of Arena, even when mechanics like 50% mortal strike and SL/SL were around and 2's was competitive.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Are you talking about Gurabashi arena?

    No, Ret is currently not strong in arenas, and has been good for only maybe 15% - 20% of the time that Arena has existed. There are currently not even any names for any 3s comp with a Ret in it.
    There is a name you could use: retcarried cleave.

  19. #199
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Uh, what? You must not be playing above like 1k rating then, honestly. Frost Mages have been a top pvp spec since the inception of Arena, even when mechanics like 50% mortal strike and SL/SL were around and 2's was competitive.
    My experiences may have been biased since I play a DK which are considered the "anti-caster" with our ranged stun and magic bubble. Sorry.

    Words to live by.

  20. #200
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    Today I logged on the PTR to test out the new Seal of Justice change, and found that the one stack of the “Justice” debuff was still being consumed and doing damage when Templar’s Verdict was used. Although I assume this is a bug, I believe Blizz stumbled upon the perfect solution to fixing Seal of Justice. Therefore, I did some testing and during two 5 minute tests (with SoT and SoJ) I found the following:

    Test 1 – Seal of Truth
    SoT – 247 hits – 1,271,646 damage
    Censure – 112 hits - 1,522,583
    Total damage = 2,794,229 ~19% of total damage

    Test 2 – Seal of Justice
    SoJ – 199 hits – 1,608,911 damage
    “Justice” hits – 36 - 284,400 damage
    Total damage = 1,893,311 ~13.5% of total damage

    Damage Difference
    (2,794,229/1,893,311) = 1.48 times more damage with SoT

    I believe this change is EXACTLY what Seal of Justice needs to become viable is arena/RBGs. It gives Ret 1) a snare 2) decent consistent damage and 3) a little extra (25% weapon damage) damage with TV; all of which are much needed. The tradeoff here is that SoT/Censure still deal considerably more (~1.5x) damage than SoJ/Justice. I understand this change is probably a bug, but mixing the 5.1 SoJ with the remade SoJ is exactly what the spell needs to become viable and see use in certain situations.

    In addition, with these changes it would probably be prudent to add a 20 second shared cooldown between SoT and SoJ to prevent seal twisting.
    Bug discovered on ptr that may be a stumble / bug that actually helps define SoJ. This leftover bug if simply left in with the SoJ revert.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...993861?page=11

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