I just got my meta gem and I'm a bit confused as to which haste breakpoint we should be hitting, if anyone could clarify this for me it will be much appreciated.
FoN is coming out 6k dps ahead of incarnation for me on the latest WrathCalcs. Will it be the go-to talent after the next patch hits?
I hate to disagree with the almighty wrathcalcs, but I am very confident that Breath of the Hydra + UVLS is BiS single target(particularly on fights with lust used on pull) and Hydra + Cha- Ye would be more ideal in a situation perhaps like horridon where 2-3 targets should be cleaved down for an extended period of time + UVLS procs being a bit too random (in comparison to cha-ye) for a fight such as horridon/council/iq even.
Despite the static crit on cha-ye the proc duration is not ideal for balance and the trinket synergy isn't quite as ideal either. Given the nearly guaranteed proc on pull/high chance of a proc during lust hydra is more likely to be up for longer during your cds. I can see cha-ye forcing awkward dot refreshes as well unless back to back procs are common with the heroic/heroic TF version.
Cha-ye + UVLS is quite possibly the worst trinket synergy imaginable having 2 trinkets with incredibly short proc durations. Usually can get through a full lunar+starfall with breath, buffing the highest peak of the balance druid dps roller coaster.
And while you don't agree with the almighty WrathCalcs, the way it models trinkets is exactly from how Blizzard told us they are, ie. from the Theorycrafting threads they supplied. From this, you can see Cha-Ye's actually has a higher uptime than Breath of the Hydra, even though it has a shorter duration.
At this point though I've totally given up trying to figure out which trinket combo would be technically BIS. I have seen countless logs with each combo of trinkets on different fights, and there doesn't seem to be any consistent combo winning out. I do agree with you that without a doubt using lust on the pull that Hydra/Unerring is the best for that situation (making sure you use INC/CA on the pull) and the best trinket combo to peak the highest during your burst. But that doesn't mean that some combo with Cha-Ye's isn't better over the course of the fight.
If you guys would like more information on FoN vs. Incarnation for 5.3, feel free to take a look at my post on the WrathCalcs page:
FoN wasn't considered for its current iteration because of its small single-target increase and no multi-target scaling.
Cha-ye procs over the course of the fight will also overlap fewer buffs such as engi gloves, jade spirit, and as I said before a proc could be "wasted" in a sense if it procs in solar (in a single target situation), making it far less valueable. Regardless of the higher uptime you are claiming (which is questionable anyway, seeing many logs that support the opposite, + static haste on trinket has the potential to support more rrpm procs) having a 20second proc vs a 10sec stacked with everything else on the pull is huge enough on its own.
Anyway all the rppm trinkets this tier are very good this tier and should be sought after by moonkins (with the exception of woosholays perhaps). I just found it a bit intriguing that the worst combination of trinkets was chosen as Best in Slot. Unfortunately none of the fights this tier are Patchwerk (there has yet to be a patchwerk since naxxramas fyi) so the numbers you're basing your choices around are a tad bit irrelevant to say the least (considering most of us won't be playing the way wrathcalcs or simcraft suggests).
I'd go as far to say normal hydra + ULVS is better than using heroic cha-ye and ULVS. I feel like you guys aren't actually thinking about how it weaves into the balance rotation and just looking at a slightly higher uptime(supported by wrathcalcs only). Anyway I just think maybe Slippy should put an annotation near the trinket part of the list at least saying the trinkets that are best vary on a fight-fight basis. Sorta getting nowhere atm with the idea that what is listed isn't actually BiS.
I do apologize as it wasn't meant to be a bashing or even a critisism of wrathcalcs so much, but perhaps a note should be made on the list that the different trinkets are stronger on different encounters. Maybe i missed something in the thread, but I'm a bit confused how UVLS and cha-ye can always be Best.
It's not bashing/trashing of the work, but questioning it and offering an alternative supported by the basics of the rotation. Idk why you seem opposed to me questioning the trinket choice as best in slot? I do appreciate the work and use wrathcalcs myself, but I thought this was a discussion on the pieces of gear we should be aiming to get as our best pieces?
Last edited by officerlahey; 2013-04-16 at 09:53 PM.
The way the RPPM system really differentiates itself from the normal ICD trinkets is that they really are random. You can get procs overwriting themselves, but you can also get procs minutes (or even phases) apart. It's this randomness that can cause two equally skilled players to differ by tens of thousands of DPS. But anyway, I digress. My point is that after the first "guaranteed" proc (and I put this in quotation marks because not always will it be so), you aren't always going to see the buff overlap other cooldowns/procs. You look to its uptime, instead of its duration, to see the percentage of time it should be up - for Breath it should be 28.4%, and Cha-Ye's 31.1%. This means, regardless of the duration, 31.1% of the time you should have the Cha-Ye's proc on you. Even though Cha-Ye's has a 10 second duration, it essentially has double the chance to proc than Breath. This is basically 1/3 of an eclipse cycle, so you should get part of an eclipse at the minimum per proc, up to a full eclipse with part of a non-eclipse. Breath, however, is 20 seconds, so 2/3 of an eclipse cycle. You're guaranteed a full eclipse in this scenario, but you still have the chance it'll buff two non-eclipsed parts. Regardless, my point on 31.1% of stuff being buffed by the proc vs. 28.4% is what to take from that.
Basically what I'm trying to convey is that with longer time between procs (as with Breath), you have more randomness of when it's going to proc. The king of this randomness is shown through UVLS, where it's a very low chance to proc and only has a 4 second uptime. You can get the proc when absolutely nothing's running, or you can get it during a burst phase - both should be equally represented. Conversely, with a fast proccing buff, you should see a more uniform distribution as to when it occurs (ie. Cha-Ye's). It should still be evenly distributed, but just more iterations happening.
So I don't disagree with you that Breath will be stronger on the pull (usually), but from what I said earlier, the higher uptime proc should mean it has a higher uptime with everything, including cooldowns and other procs.
Also, in light of the previous discussion, I'll add into the OP that the trinkets are all very close in value (~2k separation from top to bottom), so the other ones not listed aren't too bad if you're gearing up. Keeping Cha-Ye's/UVLS as BiS for the moment, as I don't have any numbers to say otherwise (until 5.3 at least).
On that topic: once 5.3 drops, I'll go through again and double-upgrade things and change talent/trinkets if required. I doubt the actual items will change, except maybe 1 or 2 slots depending on spirit.
I am pretty frustrated with trinkets this tier and I can imagine its difficult to make a "true BiS" b/c you might have to change trinkets/ multiple aspects of gearing for boss progression. Idk if 2 trinkets can be claimed as BiS for this entire tier so I'd take what you can get and make the best out of it for these gear slots :P
Last edited by officerlahey; 2013-04-17 at 02:52 AM.
I was going to post something a while ago, but decided not to. Obviously sims are sims. They have their uses and place for discussion. I do feel like, in practical play, hydra is the best trinket, or at least, better than UVLS. I got UVLS/Cha Yes early on, and yes, Cha Ye procs a lot because of the rpm/crit model, and it is very good, but the duration is a big issue.
You often have to alter your rotation, either starting in solar or cutting your Incarnation lunar dumping early. I think the 20 second duration of hydra, despite its lower simming, works really well with our cooldowns, and offers a strong, consistent burst opener.
Obviously it's a personal opinion, but as someone who raided reasonably hardcore this tier, I followed the sims early on and found that not going for a hydra early on was a big mistake. After talking to some Method druids using Hydra and looking at a lot of logs, I got my hands on one and found it to be night and day. I was amazed at how strong our other druid's opener was with Hydra, despite having a low item-level. It worked especially well with Unerring for him, because his 100% crit CA dots and then starsurge spam was all buffed by Hydra, whereas by the time I got dots up and starfalled my Cha-Yes had fallen off before I could really get off many nukes.
Unerring has some exceptional uses. I found it to be huge for Durumu, proccing during the maze and allowing me to keep up with warlocks/hunters at times. Overall though, I would highly recommend if you guys can get your hands on a Hydra, give it a shot. I'm not atatcking the simulations, and I appreciate the work you guys do. I just think it's something to consider, since trinkets are always difficult to math out.
Last edited by Fountaiin; 2013-04-17 at 02:56 AM.