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  1. #341
    Mechagnome Correlia's Avatar
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    I just got my meta gem and I'm a bit confused as to which haste breakpoint we should be hitting, if anyone could clarify this for me it will be much appreciated.
    Amazesauce sig by Shyama ^_^

  2. #342
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Correlia View Post
    I just got my meta gem and I'm a bit confused as to which haste breakpoint we should be hitting, if anyone could clarify this for me it will be much appreciated.
    For the moment, just make sure your haste is above 5273. All excess stats go into crit, then haste above the 5273 cap. Don't worry about the 10289 breakpoint (for the moment).

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    For the moment, just make sure your haste is above 5273. All excess stats go into crit, then haste above the 5273 cap. Don't worry about the 10289 breakpoint (for the moment).
    Until "we" can attempt to math out the options stat wise for reaching this :P

  4. #344
    FoN is coming out 6k dps ahead of incarnation for me on the latest WrathCalcs. Will it be the go-to talent after the next patch hits?

  5. #345
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauton View Post
    FoN is coming out 6k dps ahead of incarnation for me on the latest WrathCalcs. Will it be the go-to talent after the next patch hits?
    It's a definite possibility, especially for single-target fights. Still not sure if it's better for multiple target ones.

  6. #346
    Thanks for the list Slippy

    Just letting you know all the pieces which you don't have thunderforged links to are now up on wowdb so if you can be bothered you can change the links to make it look nicer and easier to see. Thanks again
    Originally Posted by Zarhym (Blue Tracker)

    We're confident the .01% left will be thrilled to attend a post-apocalyptic BlizzCon.

  7. #347
    I hate to disagree with the almighty wrathcalcs, but I am very confident that Breath of the Hydra + UVLS is BiS single target(particularly on fights with lust used on pull) and Hydra + Cha- Ye would be more ideal in a situation perhaps like horridon where 2-3 targets should be cleaved down for an extended period of time + UVLS procs being a bit too random (in comparison to cha-ye) for a fight such as horridon/council/iq even.

    Despite the static crit on cha-ye the proc duration is not ideal for balance and the trinket synergy isn't quite as ideal either. Given the nearly guaranteed proc on pull/high chance of a proc during lust hydra is more likely to be up for longer during your cds. I can see cha-ye forcing awkward dot refreshes as well unless back to back procs are common with the heroic/heroic TF version.

    Cha-ye + UVLS is quite possibly the worst trinket synergy imaginable having 2 trinkets with incredibly short proc durations. Usually can get through a full lunar+starfall with breath, buffing the highest peak of the balance druid dps roller coaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    I am fairly confident that in terms of raw DPS, the UVLS would be best on Horridon/Council, especially considering it's strong chance to proc at the beginning of the fight after the hotfix. It should proc at some point in our 30 second opener (if it procs very early in Lunar you will want to use CA immediately, it will be worth it). Using Inca/CA with at least 3 targets to dot which will stay alive long enough to get a full duration is just so strong, especially considering they will likely be lusted/int pot dots as well. Just plant yourself in melee range of one of the mobs and spam Starsurge (If it's Horridon you probably want to pop Mirror Images as well so you don't pull).
    With this route you've chosen to waste an entire lunar bar. Additionally I am confused how burst on the pull for horridon is useful.

  8. #348
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I hate to disagree with the almighty wrathcalcs, but I am very confident that Breath of the Hydra + UVLS is BiS single target(particularly on fights with lust used on pull) and Hydra + Cha- Ye would be more ideal in a situation perhaps like horridon where 2-3 targets should be cleaved down for an extended period of time + UVLS procs being a bit too random (in comparison to cha-ye) for a fight such as horridon/council/iq even.

    Despite the static crit on cha-ye the proc duration is not ideal for balance and the trinket synergy isn't quite as ideal either. Given the nearly guaranteed proc on pull/high chance of a proc during lust hydra is more likely to be up for longer during your cds. I can see cha-ye forcing awkward dot refreshes as well unless back to back procs are common with the heroic/heroic TF version.

    Cha-ye + UVLS is quite possibly the worst trinket synergy imaginable having 2 trinkets with incredibly short proc durations. Usually can get through a full lunar+starfall with breath, buffing the highest peak of the balance druid dps roller coaster.



    With this route you've chosen to waste an entire lunar bar. Additionally I am confused how burst on the pull for horridon is useful.
    It's great and all to supply your opinion, but as I said in the OP,

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Again, if anyone would like to contribute to this list, please post constructively and back up your post with maths! Idly arguing a point without proving yourself wont get you anywhere.
    Your argument is just based on your own speculation, and there's no way for me to verify your claims with numbers. I can't just say, "Well this guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about, let's go with him," because there's plenty of other people just like you advocating the exact opposite.

    And while you don't agree with the almighty WrathCalcs, the way it models trinkets is exactly from how Blizzard told us they are, ie. from the Theorycrafting threads they supplied. From this, you can see Cha-Ye's actually has a higher uptime than Breath of the Hydra, even though it has a shorter duration.

  9. #349
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post


    With this route you've chosen to waste an entire lunar bar. Additionally I am confused how burst on the pull for horridon is useful.
    The burst on the pull is more in reference to Council than Horridon. And opposed to the normal opener you would want to use the INC/CA immediately opener, banking on the fact that Unerring should proc at some point during that first 15 seconds. That way you don't waste the Lunar like you said.

    At this point though I've totally given up trying to figure out which trinket combo would be technically BIS. I have seen countless logs with each combo of trinkets on different fights, and there doesn't seem to be any consistent combo winning out. I do agree with you that without a doubt using lust on the pull that Hydra/Unerring is the best for that situation (making sure you use INC/CA on the pull) and the best trinket combo to peak the highest during your burst. But that doesn't mean that some combo with Cha-Ye's isn't better over the course of the fight.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauton View Post
    FoN is coming out 6k dps ahead of incarnation for me on the latest WrathCalcs. Will it be the go-to talent after the next patch hits?
    Same here, WrathCalcs is telling me to go FoN but with a smaller dps increase (2k ish iirc)

  11. #351
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    If you guys would like more information on FoN vs. Incarnation for 5.3, feel free to take a look at my post on the WrathCalcs page:

    http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-...4/#post2277198

    FoN wasn't considered for its current iteration because of its small single-target increase and no multi-target scaling.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    It's great and all to supply your opinion, but as I said in the OP,



    Your argument is just based on your own speculation, and there's no way for me to verify your claims with numbers. I can't just say, "Well this guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about, let's go with him," because there's plenty of other people just like you advocating the exact opposite.

    And while you don't agree with the almighty WrathCalcs, the way it models trinkets is exactly from how Blizzard told us they are, ie. from the Theorycrafting threads they supplied. From this, you can see Cha-Ye's actually has a higher uptime than Breath of the Hydra, even though it has a shorter duration.
    Using your same argument I could say that I should always spec heart of the wild and heart of the wild is the best talent for balance druid because wrathcalcs or simcraft, etc "supports" it with numbers. Sorry but it will never substitute for an actual encounter and neither tool will come close to replicating an actual, therefore basing your BiS list on them, especially for something as dynamic as trinkets, is a bit silly.

    Cha-ye procs over the course of the fight will also overlap fewer buffs such as engi gloves, jade spirit, and as I said before a proc could be "wasted" in a sense if it procs in solar (in a single target situation), making it far less valueable. Regardless of the higher uptime you are claiming (which is questionable anyway, seeing many logs that support the opposite, + static haste on trinket has the potential to support more rrpm procs) having a 20second proc vs a 10sec stacked with everything else on the pull is huge enough on its own.

    Anyway all the rppm trinkets this tier are very good this tier and should be sought after by moonkins (with the exception of woosholays perhaps). I just found it a bit intriguing that the worst combination of trinkets was chosen as Best in Slot. Unfortunately none of the fights this tier are Patchwerk (there has yet to be a patchwerk since naxxramas fyi) so the numbers you're basing your choices around are a tad bit irrelevant to say the least (considering most of us won't be playing the way wrathcalcs or simcraft suggests).

  13. #353
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Using your same argument I could say that I should always spec heart of the wild and heart of the wild is the best talent for balance druid because wrathcalcs or simcraft, etc "supports" it with numbers. Sorry but it will never substitute for an actual encounter and neither tool will come close to replicating an actual, therefore basing your BiS list on them, especially for something as dynamic as trinkets, is a bit silly.

    Cha-ye procs over the course of the fight will also overlap fewer buffs such as engi gloves, jade spirit, and as I said before a proc could be "wasted" in a sense if it procs in solar (in a single target situation), making it far less valueable. Regardless of the higher uptime you are claiming (which is questionable anyway, seeing many logs that support the opposite, + static haste on trinket has the potential to support more rrpm procs) having a 20second proc vs a 10sec stacked with everything else on the pull is huge enough on its own.

    Anyway all the rppm trinkets this tier are very good this tier and should be sought after by moonkins (with the exception of woosholays perhaps). I just found it a bit intriguing that the worst combination of trinkets was chosen as Best in Slot. Unfortunately none of the fights this tier are Patchwerk (there has yet to be a patchwerk since naxxramas fyi) so the numbers you're basing your choices around are a tad bit irrelevant to say the least (considering most of us won't be playing the way wrathcalcs or simcraft suggests).
    There's been a lot of work done to model multi-target fights by changing the weightings of stats. WrathCalcs is concrete proof, but for someone (who's never participated here before) to arrive and just trash all of the work that's been put in by WrathCalcs and Slippykins, and proclaim something else to be "superior" just because you "know it is" is going to leave people very skeptical and very unlikely to believe what you say.

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  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    There's been a lot of work done to model multi-target fights by changing the weightings of stats. WrathCalcs is concrete proof, but for someone (who's never participated here before) to arrive and just trash all of the work that's been put in by WrathCalcs and Slippykins, and proclaim something else to be "superior" just because you "know it is" is going to leave people very skeptical and very unlikely to believe what you say.
    Wise words.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    The burst on the pull is more in reference to Council than Horridon. And opposed to the normal opener you would want to use the INC/CA immediately opener, banking on the fact that Unerring should proc at some point during that first 15 seconds. That way you don't waste the Lunar like you said.

    At this point though I've totally given up trying to figure out which trinket combo would be technically BIS. I have seen countless logs with each combo of trinkets on different fights, and there doesn't seem to be any consistent combo winning out. I do agree with you that without a doubt using lust on the pull that Hydra/Unerring is the best for that situation (making sure you use INC/CA on the pull) and the best trinket combo to peak the highest during your burst. But that doesn't mean that some combo with Cha-Ye's isn't better over the course of the fight.
    In this situation you should communion to solar so that your bar's arrow is facing in the lunar direction. Starfall during the countdown and precast a starsurge. Then INC+CA/berserking, moonfire during the UVLS proc then starfire/starsurge and near the end of CA hold onto a starsurge proc to get back into lunar quickly. Doing this gives more lunar-buffed starfall damage and if you get unlucky with starsurge procs you still have the option to cast inc-buffed starfires instead of wrath.

    I'd go as far to say normal hydra + ULVS is better than using heroic cha-ye and ULVS. I feel like you guys aren't actually thinking about how it weaves into the balance rotation and just looking at a slightly higher uptime(supported by wrathcalcs only). Anyway I just think maybe Slippy should put an annotation near the trinket part of the list at least saying the trinkets that are best vary on a fight-fight basis. Sorta getting nowhere atm with the idea that what is listed isn't actually BiS.

    sunfyre
    I do apologize as it wasn't meant to be a bashing or even a critisism of wrathcalcs so much, but perhaps a note should be made on the list that the different trinkets are stronger on different encounters. Maybe i missed something in the thread, but I'm a bit confused how UVLS and cha-ye can always be Best.

    It's not bashing/trashing of the work, but questioning it and offering an alternative supported by the basics of the rotation. Idk why you seem opposed to me questioning the trinket choice as best in slot? I do appreciate the work and use wrathcalcs myself, but I thought this was a discussion on the pieces of gear we should be aiming to get as our best pieces?
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-04-16 at 09:53 PM.

  16. #356
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I'd go as far to say normal hydra + ULVS is better than using heroic cha-ye and ULVS. I feel like you guys aren't actually thinking about how it weaves into the balance rotation and just looking at a slightly higher uptime(supported by wrathcalcs only). Anyway I just think maybe Slippy should put an annotation near the trinket part of the list at least saying the trinkets that are best vary on a fight-fight basis. Sorta getting nowhere atm with the idea that what is listed isn't actually BiS.
    I think you're on the right track, but you're focussing on the duration of the buff too much instead of the uptime, which is the most important part. True, you are correct you'll get more of a benefit from Breath with the initial proc because it's "guaranteed" than Cha-Ye's, due to the unlucky system, but after that it's very much dependent on uptime rather than duration.

    The way the RPPM system really differentiates itself from the normal ICD trinkets is that they really are random. You can get procs overwriting themselves, but you can also get procs minutes (or even phases) apart. It's this randomness that can cause two equally skilled players to differ by tens of thousands of DPS. But anyway, I digress. My point is that after the first "guaranteed" proc (and I put this in quotation marks because not always will it be so), you aren't always going to see the buff overlap other cooldowns/procs. You look to its uptime, instead of its duration, to see the percentage of time it should be up - for Breath it should be 28.4%, and Cha-Ye's 31.1%. This means, regardless of the duration, 31.1% of the time you should have the Cha-Ye's proc on you. Even though Cha-Ye's has a 10 second duration, it essentially has double the chance to proc than Breath. This is basically 1/3 of an eclipse cycle, so you should get part of an eclipse at the minimum per proc, up to a full eclipse with part of a non-eclipse. Breath, however, is 20 seconds, so 2/3 of an eclipse cycle. You're guaranteed a full eclipse in this scenario, but you still have the chance it'll buff two non-eclipsed parts. Regardless, my point on 31.1% of stuff being buffed by the proc vs. 28.4% is what to take from that.

    Basically what I'm trying to convey is that with longer time between procs (as with Breath), you have more randomness of when it's going to proc. The king of this randomness is shown through UVLS, where it's a very low chance to proc and only has a 4 second uptime. You can get the proc when absolutely nothing's running, or you can get it during a burst phase - both should be equally represented. Conversely, with a fast proccing buff, you should see a more uniform distribution as to when it occurs (ie. Cha-Ye's). It should still be evenly distributed, but just more iterations happening.

    So I don't disagree with you that Breath will be stronger on the pull (usually), but from what I said earlier, the higher uptime proc should mean it has a higher uptime with everything, including cooldowns and other procs.

  17. #357
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    In this situation you should communion to solar so that your bar's arrow is facing in the lunar direction. Starfall during the countdown and precast a starsurge. Then INC+CA/berserking, moonfire during the UVLS proc then starfire/starsurge and near the end of CA hold onto a starsurge proc to get back into lunar quickly. Doing this gives more lunar-buffed starfall damage and if you get unlucky with starsurge procs you still have the option to cast inc-buffed starfires instead of wrath.
    Yes that is exactly what I meant when I said "That way you don't waste the Lunar like you said." It is the opener a lot of us have been using for weeks even without UVLS.

  18. #358
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foto View Post
    Thanks for the list Slippy

    Just letting you know all the pieces which you don't have thunderforged links to are now up on wowdb so if you can be bothered you can change the links to make it look nicer and easier to see. Thanks again
    Thanks for the heads up! I've gone and added those nicer links in now, list looks much prettier. ^_^

    Also, in light of the previous discussion, I'll add into the OP that the trinkets are all very close in value (~2k separation from top to bottom), so the other ones not listed aren't too bad if you're gearing up. Keeping Cha-Ye's/UVLS as BiS for the moment, as I don't have any numbers to say otherwise (until 5.3 at least).

    On that topic: once 5.3 drops, I'll go through again and double-upgrade things and change talent/trinkets if required. I doubt the actual items will change, except maybe 1 or 2 slots depending on spirit.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Yes that is exactly what I meant when I said "That way you don't waste the Lunar like you said." It is the opener a lot of us have been using for weeks even without UVLS.
    Yes well apparently fountain cant keep a secret. SO I believe the first person to start using this opener was Celebrity due to the incredibly short duration of these procs and the out-of-combat changes to the rppm formula.

    I am pretty frustrated with trinkets this tier and I can imagine its difficult to make a "true BiS" b/c you might have to change trinkets/ multiple aspects of gearing for boss progression. Idk if 2 trinkets can be claimed as BiS for this entire tier so I'd take what you can get and make the best out of it for these gear slots :P
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-04-17 at 02:52 AM.

  20. #360
    I was going to post something a while ago, but decided not to. Obviously sims are sims. They have their uses and place for discussion. I do feel like, in practical play, hydra is the best trinket, or at least, better than UVLS. I got UVLS/Cha Yes early on, and yes, Cha Ye procs a lot because of the rpm/crit model, and it is very good, but the duration is a big issue.

    You often have to alter your rotation, either starting in solar or cutting your Incarnation lunar dumping early. I think the 20 second duration of hydra, despite its lower simming, works really well with our cooldowns, and offers a strong, consistent burst opener.

    Obviously it's a personal opinion, but as someone who raided reasonably hardcore this tier, I followed the sims early on and found that not going for a hydra early on was a big mistake. After talking to some Method druids using Hydra and looking at a lot of logs, I got my hands on one and found it to be night and day. I was amazed at how strong our other druid's opener was with Hydra, despite having a low item-level. It worked especially well with Unerring for him, because his 100% crit CA dots and then starsurge spam was all buffed by Hydra, whereas by the time I got dots up and starfalled my Cha-Yes had fallen off before I could really get off many nukes.

    Unerring has some exceptional uses. I found it to be huge for Durumu, proccing during the maze and allowing me to keep up with warlocks/hunters at times. Overall though, I would highly recommend if you guys can get your hands on a Hydra, give it a shot. I'm not atatcking the simulations, and I appreciate the work you guys do. I just think it's something to consider, since trinkets are always difficult to math out.
    Last edited by Fountaiin; 2013-04-17 at 02:56 AM.

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