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  1. #361
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Yes well apparently fountain cant keep a secret. SO I believe the first person to start using this opener was Celebrity due to the incredibly short duration of these procs and the out-of-combat changes to the rppm formula.

    I am pretty frustrated with trinkets this tier and I can imagine its difficult to make a "true BiS" b/c you might have to change trinkets/ multiple aspects of gearing for boss progression. Idk if 2 trinkets can be claimed as BiS for this entire tier so I'd take what you can get and make the best out of it for these gear slots :P
    Yeah I definitely agree with you on that point, though I've said before this isn't really a BiS for gearing. This is purely for theorycrafting and goal-setting purposes, and building your sets from. In no way do I think anyone will get full Thunderforged, double upgraded heroic pieces including the ones from Ra-den, except maybe the top elite boomkins who would have no use for this thread. Instead, it's to show what we have the possibility of attaining, and give a general idea of the items that go best together - this is why I don't give each piece their own DPS weight, because as you and others' have said, each item will interact with the others depending on their stat allocations and such.

    So while people gear themselves up and they are more so just taking what's dropping rather than waiting for the best stuff, they should be importing themselves into WrathCalcs and checking what's best on an item-by-item basis, along with some thought on their part. If two pieces are almost exactly the same in terms of DPS reported by WrathCalcs, then you'd most likely go for the piece with higher crit to emphasise the importance of crit for multi-dotting. Conversely, if you're working on a fight with high movement and only one target, maybe you'd want to change your talents. Like you've said, we still need to use a bit of intuition when using models like WrathCalcs, and it's why when I compare items by hand I take 1 crit = 1.5 haste in order to emulate more of a multi-dotting scenario.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 08:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    I just think it's something to consider, since trinkets are always difficult to math out.
    You may well be right - one of the shortcomings of WrathCalcs is that it doesn't take into account the stacking of procs and such, only Incarnation/CA/NV/potion/engineering gloves (I think gloves, not 100% sure). Heroism and the like has always been an average of its proc, so stacking is only emphasised in practice. We're still only talking about the initial burst for Breath vs. Cha-Ye's, but it may well come out to average higher than Cha-Ye's in the long run, depending on fight length.

  2. #362
    Mechagnome lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Yes well apparently fountain cant keep a secret. SO I believe the first person to start using this opener was Celebrity due to the incredibly short duration of these procs and the out-of-combat changes to the rppm formula.
    im pretty sure you cant say a specific name on who was the first person to use such common opener, no offense my dear boy kasper.
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I am pretty frustrated with trinkets this tier and I can imagine its difficult to make a "true BiS" b/c you might have to change trinkets/ multiple aspects of gearing for boss progression. Idk if 2 trinkets can be claimed as BiS for this entire tier so I'd take what you can get and make the best out of it for these gear slots :P
    The personal experience from given trinkets, Hydra and Cha-ye have similar uptimes during bloodlust (cha-ye usually procs twice during that time) and because of that and presonal preference of crit > haste im going to take Cha-ye over Hydra anytime. Havent had the chance to test Lei-shen trinket on live but i loved it on PTR

  3. #363
    I'm experiencing the same thing even with the LFR cha-ye with back to back procs when temporary haste buffs are present. NM lei shen trinket will proc on the pull 95% of the time just like any other rppm, but on average 2-3 procs on a 10 min fight.

    Who's kasper?

  4. #364
    Mechagnome lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Who's kasper?
    kasper aka celebrity

  5. #365
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-yet-high-dps

    This guy was doing the opener way back in MSV and then Celeb mentioned he did it on Sha Progress because he got TotT on the pull. This was before PPM trinkets so I think everyone pretty much ignored it though.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-17 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #366
    lol 110k on spirit kings rank 36?? maybe impressive in blues :P. I think if you look at this thread he took a really poor use of this opener and used it well on sha, much more appropriate place for it. Maybe Kasper is not the first to use it, but he's first to stream effective use of it. It actually doesn't matter who used it first , more that moonkins need to adjust their cds for best possible dps than always falling into the habit of using it in fresh lunar eclipse.

    I have gotten so off topic now its kinda silly. this thread about best gear pieces, yes will have to adjust your play for new trinkets, as well as fight mechanics, always been like this and something to keep in mind with gear choices.

  7. #367
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    Its not specificly RPPM trinkets for which its sometimes beneficial to change your opener, it was the change to RPPM trinkets that made them more/super likely to proc on the pull. I hinted on this topic(post #252) that it was atleast for council, and other multi target fights, better to change your opener when you have UvlS. If you do so you can get off like 3 CA'd sets of dots during the Perfect Aim proc. In that post I also noted that WC can't model fights like that properly. Nor can it grasp the interesting combination of uvls and cha'ye's. If we want to make something useful out of this discussion we should focus on the "BiS in practice" trinkets per type of fight.

  8. #368
    So just wondering why UVLS is back in the BiS? I understand the min/max simulation reasoning by it, that it should be up right with our 3 min cooldowns and is amazing during its proc, but it doesn't seem like a very practical trinket. What if it procs right on iron qon as you go into wind storm? Or on Lei Shen right as transition happens. Or any other number of awful timings that almost seem like they would always happen?

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by tagartou View Post
    So just wondering why UVLS is back in the BiS? I understand the min/max simulation reasoning by it, that it should be up right with our 3 min cooldowns and is amazing during its proc, but it doesn't seem like a very practical trinket. What if it procs right on iron qon as you go into wind storm? Or on Lei Shen right as transition happens. Or any other number of awful timings that almost seem like they would always happen?
    I have to agree with this post mainly due to rng gods tending to give me the shaft when I need some luck, assuming that because the proc is SO DAMN POWERFUL that if you get lucky twice in a fight that the dps gain is going to be huge?

  10. #370
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    I have to agree with this post mainly due to rng gods tending to give me the shaft when I need some luck, assuming that because the proc is SO DAMN POWERFUL that if you get lucky twice in a fight that the dps gain is going to be huge?
    Getting lucky once with that trinket can make the fight tbh, started progression on HC Council last night, trinket procced during CA etc got 4 lots of DOTs up (the legendary meta makes it alot easier) and with the SS spam that followed I peaked at 987k DPS. It can be CRAZY, but even if it procs out of eclipse with nothing up what so ever, its still GREAT.


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  11. #371
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tagartou View Post
    So just wondering why UVLS is back in the BiS? I understand the min/max simulation reasoning by it, that it should be up right with our 3 min cooldowns and is amazing during its proc, but it doesn't seem like a very practical trinket. What if it procs right on iron qon as you go into wind storm? Or on Lei Shen right as transition happens. Or any other number of awful timings that almost seem like they would always happen?
    Same reasoning for the other trinkets - if Cha-Ye's procs while you're in tornado phase of Iron Qon, you still wont get the benefit of it. Or if it procs while Megaera's heads are retreating, you'll get much less use out of the proc.

    It's a really strong trinket if you're able to make use of the DoTs while it's up. Maximising your damage on the boss is also about making sure those downtimes where you can't hit the boss are minimised, so that would stand to reason it also minimises the chance UVLS/other procs are wasted during that time.

    5.3 may make Cha-Ye's/Breath better as a combination anyway, with the change to FoN. If we pick up FoN instead of Incarnation, obviously the trees can't receive the full benefit of the UVLS proc, but they can get use out of Cha-Ye's/Breath's int procs.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Getting lucky once with that trinket can make the fight tbh, started progression on HC Council last night, trinket procced during CA etc got 4 lots of DOTs up (the legendary meta makes it alot easier) and with the SS spam that followed I peaked at 987k DPS. It can be CRAZY, but even if it procs out of eclipse with nothing up what so ever, its still GREAT.
    What the actual fuck. 987k? Seriously?
    Im saving my last coin for Lei Shen again this week then, inb4 the shitting doublesocket neck <3

    13 secrets, LOVE YOU RNG GODS <33
    Last edited by Drayarr; 2013-04-18 at 05:52 PM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Same reasoning for the other trinkets - if Cha-Ye's procs while you're in tornado phase of Iron Qon, you still wont get the benefit of it. Or if it procs while Megaera's heads are retreating, you'll get much less use out of the proc.
    Fair enough, but BoH and Cha-Ye's have proc more often and have longer procs than 4s. Really bad luck on Megeara could leave you with only 1 used trinket proc out of 3 or 4 which would really suck. But I guess you just kinda have to hope that doesn't happen.

    About FoN, I'm taking that the ideal T90 talent with it is HotW, yeah?

  14. #374
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tagartou View Post
    Fair enough, but BoH and Cha-Ye's have proc more often and have longer procs than 4s. Really bad luck on Megeara could leave you with only 1 used trinket proc out of 3 or 4 which would really suck. But I guess you just kinda have to hope that doesn't happen.

    About FoN, I'm taking that the ideal T90 talent with it is HotW, yeah?
    Yeah definitely. NV will just drop even further down without Incarnation, because of the loss of synergy. We do need to be careful, though, as FoN can't scale with targets, so it may be below Incarnation on fights like Council or Horridon. Don't have any sort of "target breakpoint" for FoN vs. Incarnation, but I'm sure it's there. FoN is just ridiculously strong in its current PTR form.

    And on UVLS - I absolutely agree. I even switched out UVLS for LotC H (2/2) on Jin'rokh because it was continually proccing while I ran balls out. Horrible RNG luck for me, but I'm sure other people will attest to it proccing back-to-back during their burst phase, so it should even out overall. I had insane luck on Twin Consorts, with UVLS proccing just as CA was ending and the 2nd sister had popped out for her fire radiance spell - 4 DoTs of 100% crit let me burst really well. It's just really RNG-based, but if you're lucky enough it's incessantly stronger than the other trinkets.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-04-18 at 06:17 PM.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Yeah definitely. NV will just drop even further down without Incarnation, because of the loss of synergy. We do need to be careful, though, as FoN can't scale with targets, so it may be below Incarnation on fights like Council or Horridon. Don't have any sort of "target breakpoint" for FoN vs. Incarnation, but I'm sure it's there. FoN is just ridiculously strong in its current PTR form.

    And on UVLS - I absolutely agree. I even switched out UVLS for LotC H (2/2) on Jin'rokh because it was continually proccing while I ran balls out. Horrible RNG luck for me, but I'm sure other people will attest to it proccing back-to-back during their burst phase, so it should even out overall. I had insane luck on Twin Consorts, with UVLS proccing just as CA was ending and the 2nd sister had popped out for her fire radiance spell - 4 DoTs of 100% crit let me burst really well. It's just really RNG-based, but if you're lucky enough it's incessantly stronger than the other trinkets.
    This does however leave the possibility that it will "never" proc at an opportune moment for people (like myself) who if it wasn't for bad luck wouldn't have any luck?
    I mean, transitions/derp points/stop dps/movement where you cant dot etc. I know this is a fairly small chance but I have had some "lolwtf" moments in the last few weeks with 1% chance stuff happening :P

    offtopic, have you thought anymore into the "crit breakpoint" discussion from the other week, been rather busy and have not had time to catch up with EJ

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Yes well apparently fountain cant keep a secret. SO I believe the first person to start using this opener was Celebrity due to the incredibly short duration of these procs and the out-of-combat changes to the rppm formula.
    Ye I've used this the whole expansion. But I had no reason to keep argue with ppl disagreeing with my decision I just know it has been better in some situations for dps gain the whole expansion, though its more obvious now

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    im pretty sure you cant say a specific name on who was the first person to use such common opener, no offense my dear boy kasper
    Well I didn't hear of anyone else doing it before me, but im sure a few other people must have done it, too.

  17. #377
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    This does however leave the possibility that it will "never" proc at an opportune moment for people (like myself) who if it wasn't for bad luck wouldn't have any luck?
    I mean, transitions/derp points/stop dps/movement where you cant dot etc. I know this is a fairly small chance but I have had some "lolwtf" moments in the last few weeks with 1% chance stuff happening :P

    offtopic, have you thought anymore into the "crit breakpoint" discussion from the other week, been rather busy and have not had time to catch up with EJ
    Yeah that was my first point - it was always proccing at the worst times for me on Jin'rokh. There should be an even spread between it proccing at terrible times for some people, and at the best times for others, assuming the length of time for "best" is the same as the length of time for "worst". In fact, it should probably have a higher chance to proc at the best times since the best times would include heroism (faster ticks = more chances at procs), compared to the worst times when there's less events happening for a proc (most likely just DoTs ticking).

    On the crit "breakpoint" discussion - Hamlet's gone and put out a PTR version of WrathCalcs including a SS proc modifier, which you can set as a number from 0 to 1, to simulate a percentage of lost Shooting Stars procs. At the moment I'm using 0.2, but as I said in one post we'll need to trawl through logs more to see what is a practical percentage of waste to expect. From early tests, it's looking we'll want haste until the GCD cap (10289), and then stack crit until forever. Mastery is still not a desirable stat, and 2x crit > int even when you expect to lose some SS procs.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    On the crit "breakpoint" discussion - Hamlet's gone and put out a PTR version of WrathCalcs including a SS proc modifier, which you can set as a number from 0 to 1, to simulate a percentage of lost Shooting Stars procs. At the moment I'm using 0.2, but as I said in one post we'll need to trawl through logs more to see what is a practical percentage of waste to expect. From early tests, it's looking we'll want haste until the GCD cap (10289), and then stack crit until forever. Mastery is still not a desirable stat, and 2x crit > int even when you expect to lose some SS procs.
    Assumed as much, I would guess there will be a "preference point" wherein people could decide "thats enough lost SS procs" and move to int?
    Last edited by Drayarr; 2013-04-18 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Spelling.

  19. #379
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Assumed as much, I would guess there will be a "preference point" wherein people could decided "thats enough lost SS procs" and move to int?
    Possibly, but remember all stats are affected by the SS proc modifier (it is lost DPS after all), it's just crit is affected more so than the other stats. I think it required a 50% waste modifier to make 1 int > 2x crit, and if you're wasting 50% of your procs you're really doing something wrong. So I'm doubtful there will come a point we'd go into int rather than crit this tier, but next tier could show that.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Possibly, but remember all stats are affected by the SS proc modifier (it is lost DPS after all), it's just crit is affected more so than the other stats. I think it required a 50% waste modifier to make 1 int > 2x crit, and if you're wasting 50% of your procs you're really doing something wrong. So I'm doubtful there will come a point we'd go into int rather than crit this tier, but next tier could show that.
    Someone, possibly you, mentioned in T15h(Bis) with upgrades when available that it may change how we look at this, I guess we shall just have to sit it out for now

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