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  1. #101
    due to the randomness of the rppm it's not feasible to wait for a proc, you just gotta make the best of it when it does proc. This just makes DoC even weaker since you wouldn't be able to cast a healing touch + 2 dots within the 4 sec window unless you have NS ready, which you wont have the majority of the time since you use it on cd to reduce the time spent casting HT. Unless you save it for trinket proc, in which case you lose dps hardcasting healing touch a lot more.

  2. #102
    From GC:

    The proc frequency changes based on the ilvl of the trinket:

    541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
    535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
    528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
    522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
    502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
    463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier

    This counts for both Unerring Vision and Rune of Re-Origination.

    Means that LFR/Normal/HC trinkets are not exactly the same regarding the proc

  3. #103
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Could cause the trinket priority to change before heroic BiS gear levels, and make Cha-Ye's (which, on my last look at the 2-target WrathCalcs was ahead of Hydra) and Hydra the best for that point in time. However, it's just making Unerring shoot ahead in the T15H BiS scenario.

  4. #104
    Shouldn't be that unexpected, though. Any trinket that has a non-scalable proc pretty much needs to have it's chance scale with level.

    I think it would be of interest to people where this puts the LFR version relative to pre-5.2 trinkets.

  5. #105
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Shouldn't be that unexpected, though. Any trinket that has a non-scalable proc pretty much needs to have it's chance scale with level.

    I think it would be of interest to people where this puts the LFR version relative to pre-5.2 trinkets.
    Ok, so I went and manually changed the proc rate in WrathCalcs:

    Looks like from what I can see, the trinket priority would be: H LotC (upg. 2) > LFR UVLS > H LotC > LFR Cha-Ye's > H EoT

    With H LotC (upg. 2) -> 178791.70,
    LFR UVLS -> 178748.03
    H LotC -> 177000.99
    LFR Cha-Ye's -> 176456.53
    H EoT -> 175491.52

    Verdict: if you manage to upgrade your heroic LotC twice before 5.2 hits, you'll marginally beat the LFR version of UVLS. If you can't upgrade H LotC, or you don't have one, LFR UVLS will be your best trinket of the options. After that, LFR Cha-Ye's. H EoT is crap, in comparison.

    Also, I believe Cha-Ye's is pulling ahead of the Hydra trinket with the last couple of changes to WrathCalcs. I'll throw in the change soon, but it'll make hitting the haste breakpoint harder, and could thus devalue its worth.

    Edit: I compared Cha-Ye's and Hydra more in this EJ post - http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-...6/#post2257788. Still trying to figure out more on the crit vs. hasteBP discussion.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-02-25 at 03:52 AM.

  6. #106
    If Cha-Ye and Hydra stay like that, we might as well just take whichever we can get faster.

  7. #107
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If Cha-Ye and Hydra stay like that, we might as well just take whichever we can get faster.
    Currently, yeah, I'd say either one is good for the slot. If we're leaning toward a hasteBP build, I'd advocate the haste trinket, and if we're going for the extra crit I think Cha-Ye's would be more appropriate. However, this is based on the preliminary version of multi-target WrathCalcs, so the numbers will probably change. I'll update the BiS list once we have a more solid model.

  8. #108
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Currently have sucky trinkets Lotc Normal, and Relic of Yu'lon, any chance you could slap that on the bottom of the list just for my giggles?

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  9. #109
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Currently have sucky trinkets Lotc Normal, and Relic of Yu'lon, any chance you could slap that on the bottom of the list just for my giggles?
    H LotC (upg. 2) > LFR UVLS > H LotC > LFR Cha-Ye's > N LotC > H EoT > RoY as far as I can remember, N LotC and H EoT may switch depending on your setup.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    H LotC (upg. 2) > LFR UVLS > H LotC > LFR Cha-Ye's > N LotC > H EoT > RoY as far as I can remember, N LotC and H EoT may switch depending on your setup.
    Do you know if upgraded relic of yulon will be better than lfr trinkets?

  11. #111
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahri View Post
    Do you know if upgraded relic of yulon will be better than lfr trinkets?
    Plug them into WC and check for yourself. This thread should stay on topic of determining BIS gear for T15, not endless posts of "I have item x, is it better then item y?"

  12. #112
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    For RPPM procs with ICDs, none of the attacks during the ICD are considered chances to proc. So if I have a 22 sec ICD, the first attack after the ICD ends will have the full capped 10 sec ICD. In other words, option “A”, as you have it working already.
    Might increase their value a tad if it hasn't been accounted for already.

  13. #113
    It Would be Awesome if u work on a Normal BIS for those who doesnt get to Rush tru content.

    Ty for this Awesome work tho

    Likeaboss

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Likeaboss View Post
    It Would be Awesome if u work on a Normal BIS for those who doesnt get to Rush tru content.

    Ty for this Awesome work tho

    Likeaboss
    As stommped pointed out just 2 posts earlier the point of this thread is T15H BiS gear, not normal.

  15. #115
    Everything in this post of mine should be taken with a grain of salt. My buddies and I have put in nearly a hundred hours worth of testing on the PTR.
    WrathCalcs is nice and all, but it doesn't account for everything.

    When 5.2 drops, HotW > NV.
    When you obtain your T15 4pc, it's very likely that SotF > Inc.

    With this in mind I feel it's important to note that both Int AND Mastery have a lot to gain from both of these talents. SotF allows you to have 100% of your casts on Patchwerk benefit from Nature's Grace at only 5273 haste. This allows a higher uptime on Mastery. HotW scales your Int. Int scales Spell Power. Our hard casts scale 9% more off of Spell Power in 5.2. Damage scaling + Mastery scaling = winning.

    I don't think that the 10k breakpoint is worth the sacrifice to Crit. In that "BiS" list, you could easily get another 3k-4k Crit out of it.

    You don't have all Heroic Thunderforged items up there, the only Heroic Thunderforged that you do have are off of Ra-Den, although they have a chance to drop off of any boss.

    For instance, Ra-Den's ring isn't worth a damn compared to Durumu and Iron Qon ring. Both of which have base crit. The sockets in them could be gemmed straight crit, or just int/crit.

    Our DoTs are now both snapshot Int AND Crit instead of just Int.

    Lei-Shen's trinket has been out on the PTR for sometime now. I personally hate the trinket. If it goes live how it is now, there is no way I would ever consider that BiS. .5RPPM, yes RPPM scales off of Haste, so during burst this trinket might proc twice, but it's RNG is TERRIBLE. I had it proc twice during lust a few times, and then not proc for 3 minutes. A 4 second uptime. If you have a weak aura covering 50% of your screen, and you have good reaction speed and a cancel cast macro, then you'll be able to get 3 DoTs off. If a SS proc crits the target with the empowered DoTs, then we lose the empowered DoTs due to our refresh mechanic. The RNG of the trinket is terrible and there's no way to predict it like you can RoY, Jade Spirit, Lightweave, LotC, or EoT.

    All-in-all I only consider Lei-Shen's trinket to shine on multi-DoTing fights where you can DoTs and SS different targets.

    The base Haste trinket with an Int proc, has half of the uptime as the base Crit with an Int proc. Thus the Dark Animus trinket should be better. I'm not sure about which trinket I would consider 2nd BiS, however I'm leaning heavily towards Lei-Shen's even though I hate the damn thing. Only because of base Int though. As you said, we're well over hit cap and Wooshlay's would just be overkill.

    Blizzard has done a really nice job itemizing the secondary stats on items, if you look at them you'll notice that some capes have a socket while others don't. Although the capes without sockets have higher amounts of secondary stats and 80 more Int. You really have to weigh stats carefully here, especially once you start reforging.

    On the PTR, I'm currently prioritizing:
    Int > 15% Hit > 5273 Haste > Crit > Mastery > Surplus Haste.
    Again, this is only because I have the T15 4pc and feel that it synergizes VERY well with SotF and Mastery.


    In regards to a Normal Mode BiS list, I actually came up with one for myself.

    Inside brackets I list the color of gems and their socket bonuses. If there is competition between items such as the rings, I make a point to say that the ring itself has a focus on crit, as in crit is far better itemized on the piece of gear than the other secondary stat. You can also go check out the options for yourself.

    Tier Pieces:
    Chest - Dark Animus - Spirit/Mastery (red/yellow/blue +180 int)
    Gloves - Council of Elders - Mastery/Crit (red +60 int)
    Legs - Ji-Kun - Haste/Crit (yellow/blue +120 int)
    Shoulders - Iron Qon - Haste/Crit (red/yellow +120 haste)

    Weapon:
    Durumu the Forgotten - Spirit/Crit (red +60 int)

    Off-hand:
    Lei Shen - Crit/Haste (red +60 int)

    Helm:
    Off-piece:
    Megaera - Spirit/Crit (meta/yellow +180 int)

    Neck:
    Twin Consorts - Spirit/Crit (yellow +60 crit)

    Shoulders:
    TIER

    Back:
    Durumu the Forgotten - Haste/Crit (red +60 int)

    Chest:
    TIER

    Wrists:
    Jin'rokh the Breaker - Spirit/Crit

    Gloves:
    TIER

    Waist:
    Twin Consorts - Spirit/Haste (red/yellow +120 spirit)

    Legs:
    TIER

    Boots:
    Durumu the Forgotten - Spirit/Crit (yellow +60 Spirit)

    Rings:
    Iron Qon - Crit/Mastery Focus on Crit (blue +60 Haste) (Would gem straight crit or hit/crit based on current hit)
    Durumu the Forgotten - Spirit/Crit Focus on Spirit (red +60 Spirit) (Would gem int/crit)
    Runner up:
    Jin'rokh the Breaker - Hit/Crit Higher base stats with a focus on Crit

    Trinkets:
    Dark Animus - Base Crit, Int proc.


    I chose the helm as the off-piece due to itemization and the socket bonus. I don't know what other trinket would be BiS for normal modes, it could even be Heroic LotC, who knows.

    If you guys have any questions or criticism, I love feedback xD.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    If a SS proc crits the target with the empowered DoTs, then we lose the empowered DoTs due to our refresh mechanic.
    I haven't been on the PTR to test the trinket but everything I've read states that this is not the case? If it really did update crit when you refresh with starsurge, why wouldn't it update mastery and other dmg amplifiers aswell?

    I really don't agree with Mastery gearing at all, as you said you will only have a 100% uptime on patchwork fights, and that wont be the case on the majority of the T15 bosses.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    If a SS proc crits the target with the empowered DoTs, then we lose the empowered DoTs due to our refresh mechanic..
    For having "Nearly a hundred hours" worth of testing, you are horribly uninformed. Starsurge extends the DoT, which keeps the 100% crit buff on it. In fact, if you had tested the trinket for even 40 seconds, you would have noticed that. I agree that the trinket is quite Random, but you are way off base in thinking that Starsurges extension is removing the 100% crit.

  18. #118
    Neck:
    Twin Consorts - Spirit/Crit (yellow +60 crit)
    If we are talking normal BIS the neck piece you get from friendly reputation with Shado-Pan assault gives 480 Spirit and 637 Crit and more intellect when compared to the neck from Twin Consorts which gives 510 spirit and only 556 crit and only 788 Int.

    Love the list however

    Would Breath of the Hydra not be viable for 2nd BIS normal Trinket if you dont fancy the Lei Shen one?
    Last edited by sexfacejonny; 2013-03-01 at 11:19 AM.

  19. #119
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    Everything in this post of mine should be taken with a grain of salt. My buddies and I have put in nearly a hundred hours worth of testing on the PTR.
    WrathCalcs is nice and all, but it doesn't account for everything.
    While I don't want to make myself seem like an ass or anything, but I feel the need to debunk a few of the things you've said so people don't get confused. You have supplied no mathematical background to your claims, and instead have just relied upon your own logical reasoning to determine "what is best." While this can be an accurate measure of "what is best," it is in no way more credible than a model like WrathCalcs, or even SimCraft. Now, while I do recognise that WrathCalcs is not infallible, where it does not account for movement and is only partially capable of modelling multi-target fights, it has been an accurate model for many years and many expansions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    When 5.2 drops, HotW > NV.
    When you obtain your T15 4pc, it's very likely that SotF > Inc.

    With this in mind I feel it's important to note that both Int AND Mastery have a lot to gain from both of these talents. SotF allows you to have 100% of your casts on Patchwerk benefit from Nature's Grace at only 5273 haste. This allows a higher uptime on Mastery. HotW scales your Int. Int scales Spell Power. Our hard casts scale 9% more off of Spell Power in 5.2. Damage scaling + Mastery scaling = winning.
    On what grounds do you make the assumption HotW > NV? If you had taken the time to read this thread, the last T14H BiS thread, or even the EJ boomkin thread, you'd know that we have been talking about why HotW would be ahead of NV this tier. In fact, were a damage mod fight to be in place that is significant enough, it could dethrone HotW for that specific fight. As it stands, HotW is the better choice right now, but I would like to clarify that it isn't a straight-forward "this talent is better than this one," because their DPS contribution fluctuates depending on fight type.

    Secondly, when we are regarding the BiS scenario, without SotF you will still receive 100% NG uptime, even with two targets (barring movement). SotF cuts off around 2.5 seconds from the rotation per cycle, and for single-target that means a 24.5 second cycle. However, SotF does gain in strength with more targets, but this is more due to dots not falling off targets by the time you enter a new eclipse - with Incarnation, you're still looking at a ~28.7 second cycle.

    I'll get into stats in the next block.

    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    [...] from Nature's Grace at only 5273 haste [...]

    I don't think that the 10k breakpoint is worth the sacrifice to Crit. In that "BiS" list, you could easily get another 3k-4k Crit out of it.
    While I can't say for certain, because wowdb and wowhead both do not have the other Thunderforged pieces added (yet), I don't believe it's possible to get as "low" on haste values as you've said, nor is it advantageous. Hamlet has constantly said in his thread that the value of mastery is higher than average while in eclipse, but obvious non-existent outside of it. Remember that mastery wont buff one of our two dots every time we refresh. Also remember that mastery will increase the value of Incarnation due to damage mod scaling, so your point about it helping SotF is moot.

    Like I've said before, and recently too, this is the first tier this expansion where on a per point basis, haste > crit for single-target and before the breakpoint. This is significant. With the limited modelling WrathCalcs can do of multiple-targets, it shows haste is roughly equal to crit. We can extend this trend and say crit will surpass haste on a per point basis, but we must also take a look at how the haste breakpoint changes. For single-target, we see the haste breakpoint valued at 1582 DPS. Once we go into a 2-target fight, its contribution is now 8045 DPS. This shows that when doubling the amount of targets available, its worth increases by over 400%. When we look at the change in crit rating, each marginal point is worth 3.42 single-target and 6.1 with two targets, a 78% increase. This palls in comparison to the over 400% increase in the haste breakpoint.

    Whether you like it or not, haste is quite a strong stat this tier and is much stronger than it was during 5.0/5.1.

    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    You don't have all Heroic Thunderforged items up there, the only Heroic Thunderforged that you do have are off of Ra-Den, although they have a chance to drop off of any boss.

    For instance, Ra-Den's ring isn't worth a damn compared to Durumu and Iron Qon ring. Both of which have base crit. The sockets in them could be gemmed straight crit, or just int/crit.
    As I've said countless times and is bolded in the OP, this is a tentative list, and is subject to change. Wowdb and Wowhead do not have the other Thunderforged pieces yet. When they are in, Tec will be then able to update WrathCalcs and we can make a more reasonable list.

    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    Lei-Shen's trinket has been out on the PTR for sometime now. I personally hate the trinket. If it goes live how it is now, there is no way I would ever consider that BiS. .5RPPM, yes RPPM scales off of Haste, so during burst this trinket might proc twice, but it's RNG is TERRIBLE. I had it proc twice during lust a few times, and then not proc for 3 minutes. A 4 second uptime. If you have a weak aura covering 50% of your screen, and you have good reaction speed and a cancel cast macro, then you'll be able to get 3 DoTs off. If a SS proc crits the target with the empowered DoTs, then we lose the empowered DoTs due to our refresh mechanic. The RNG of the trinket is terrible and there's no way to predict it like you can RoY, Jade Spirit, Lightweave, LotC, or EoT.

    All-in-all I only consider Lei-Shen's trinket to shine on multi-DoTing fights where you can DoTs and SS different targets.

    The base Haste trinket with an Int proc, has half of the uptime as the base Crit with an Int proc. Thus the Dark Animus trinket should be better. I'm not sure about which trinket I would consider 2nd BiS, however I'm leaning heavily towards Lei-Shen's even though I hate the damn thing. Only because of base Int though. As you said, we're well over hit cap and Wooshlay's would just be overkill.
    UVLS is a very strong trinket this tier, if used correctly. As other people have said, SS crits will extend the super-dots and they will retain their 100% crit rate. Hamlet put a pretty accurate model into WrathCalcs specifically for UVLS, and it wrecks the ever-loving crap out of the other trinket options. There is just no comparison between the two. While the RNG might be terrible, we're talking about an average of procs, and if you are to achieve the average amount, then on average this trinket is much better than the alternatives. And the funny thing about RNG is that you may not get the average amount of procs on a per fight basis - but if you average out all your fights over the course of a night or even a week, the amount of procs per pull would be very close to the average. In fact, the more fights you add to this running total, the more it'll approach the average.

    Multi-dotting with UVLS will be strong, but due to latency and whatnot you may only get 3-4 dots up. The theoretical maximum is 5, but the timing would just need to be luck.

    I do agree with you on the Wushoolay's point, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by BolognaAndCheese View Post
    On the PTR, I'm currently prioritizing:
    Int > 15% Hit > 5273 Haste > Crit > Mastery > Surplus Haste.
    Again, this is only because I have the T15 4pc and feel that it synergizes VERY well with SotF and Mastery.
    Just as a little experiment, I'm going to simulate what you put forward here in WrathCalcs and see what it says. Assuming we've maxed crit completely, because you aren't going for the haste breakpoint, excess haste will then go into mastery. Current DPS with breakpoint (in OP): 187253.27. Swapping in SotF, dropping haste below mastery and stacking more mastery: 181496.18, where 2k of the drop was from SotF alone. If we say that mastery > haste, then it is possible to make haste go to just above the 5273 breakpoint - but haste > mastery, and even haste >= crit for up to two targets, so haste sits at 7868 when not going for the breakpoint (DPS: 184774.93).

    Anyway, I don't mean to sound rude or abrasive. However, you posted on my thread, so I assume you wanted a response/critique from me. Overall, I just want to reiterate this is a tentative list, and once 5.2 rocks around + Hamlet has corrected the multi-target modelling, we will have a much more steadfast list presented here.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-01 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #120
    UVLS might be the best theoretically but may not be the best for every encounter. If you look at a progression point of view then other trinkets might be better than UVLS.

    Take for instance Elegon or Tsulong where you have to do short burst damage very often. A trinket like LotC with 40% uptime on the proc will be better to handle the adds than UVLS. For this situation if UVLS procs then you'll destroy the add but you'll lack dps most of the time because you can go for 3-4mins without a proc.

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