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  1. #141
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Sinister has been updated to the correct value; it's better than the .6192 we thought it was going to be.
    Yeah, 1.872 multiplier. Should be a really nice boost, but will make the haste breakpoint worth less (it's applicable for less time). I'll have to go through and see if it's still worth attaining.

    Edit: with a 1.872 multiplier on the Sinister meta gem - haste breakpoint went down, difference between crit/haste builds is 0.37% single-target. Value of SotF went down (more haste = less SotF benefit), UVLS is below the other two options in both scenarios.

    If this stays as is, there's the option of hitting the haste breakpoint or going full crit again. Without Hamlet's multi-target model finished, we wont be able to see whether the haste breakpoint is worth the trouble or not for more than 1 target.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-05 at 03:57 AM.

  2. #142
    soooo based solely on this information, a full crit sotf build could be a good option. gief!


    sotf typically goes up with number of targets, right? faster eclipse = bigger starsurges, the bread and butter of multitarget moonkining

  3. #143
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    soooo based solely on this information, a full crit sotf build could be a good option. gief!


    sotf typically goes up with number of targets, right? faster eclipse = bigger starsurges, the bread and butter of multitarget moonkining
    Could definitely be possible, but there are a few issues:

    - SotF is lower than both other alternatives for single-target (WrathCalcs). Multi-target is still inconclusive.
    - SotF benefit doesn't scale with any sort of damage mod, and in fact scales negatively with heroism (the casts it saves are shorter in length) and the Sinister meta gem.
    - While SotF goes up with more targets, so does Incarnation. Treants do not.

    I'll go into a crit/SotF build in more detail tomorrow, but Incarnation is looking more promising for the moment.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-05 at 06:20 AM.

  4. #144
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    @Slippy I see you've suggested an Incarnation/HOTW Build. Fight dependent ofc(single/multi targets) will you be using Incarnation to DOT as much as possible, and lengthen that stay in eclipse, or will you be using the HOTW (mechanic not CD)to shuffle from eclipse to eclipse asap (a standard rotation) during Incarnation maxing NG uptime, starfalls and hard casts?

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  5. #145
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    @Slippy I see you've suggested an Incarnation/HOTW Build. Fight dependent ofc(single/multi targets) will you be using Incarnation to DOT as much as possible, and lengthen that stay in eclipse, or will you be using the HOTW (mechanic not CD)to shuffle from eclipse to eclipse asap (a standard rotation) during Incarnation maxing NG uptime, starfalls and hard casts?
    I am not sure what you are asking. Nothing about Incarnation is changing, you still want to spend 15 seconds in Lunar Eclipse and 15 seconds in CA. I am not sure what you mean by the HotW mechanic maximizing NG uptime. It sounds like you think HotW = SotF. SotF however is on the same tier as Incarnation so you will not have that.

  6. #146
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Ignore that last post, it was before my morning coffee, reading it back now I actually facepalmed.

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  7. #147
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Ignore that last post, it was before my morning coffee, reading it back now I actually facepalmed.
    My coffee is currently roasting, and I'm delaying all posts until it's done.

  8. #148
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    My coffee is currently roasting, and I'm delaying all posts until it's done.
    Wise move brother, wise move.

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  9. #149
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Didn't read all 8 pages of this so forgive me if this question was already asked/answered.

    I assume it worked for all DoT classes, but i know atleast for druids DoTs scaled dynamically with Crit in Cataclysm. I.E our T11 4PC once an eclipse was reached and you got the 100% crit buff your DoTs instantly started critting (no re-apply necessary).

    Was this changed in MoP? If not there would be no need to re-apply your DoTs when this trinket proc'd? And even if you did re-apply your DoTs they would stop critting once the duration wears off so it would be completely pointless.

    Can anyone clarify this?

  10. #150
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Didn't read all 8 pages of this so forgive me if this question was already asked/answered.

    I assume it worked for all DoT classes, but i know atleast for druids DoTs scaled dynamically with Crit in Cataclysm. I.E our T11 4PC once an eclipse was reached and you got the 100% crit buff your DoTs instantly started critting (no re-apply necessary).

    Was this changed in MoP? If not there would be no need to re-apply your DoTs when this trinket proc'd? And even if you did re-apply your DoTs they would stop critting once the duration wears off so it would be completely pointless.

    Can anyone clarify this?
    Once UVLS procced, you would need to reapply your dots. They would crit for their full duration. Unfortunately, with the 50% realPPM reduction for boomkins, it means that the other two options (Cha-Ye's and Hydra) are better trinkets overall.

  11. #151
    Better trinkets and much less of a hassle.

    They actually specificially changed it in response to initial reactions to this very trinket. All DoTs now snapshot crit on application.

  12. #152
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    So, currently, here's what I have for the haste BP vs. crit discussion:

    Haste breakpoint build (OP): 192106.99 DPS
    Crit build: 191406.21 DPS
    % separation: 0.37%

    The gap closed between the two builds significantly because of the multiplier for chickens on the Sinister Primal Diamond. WrathCalcs is showing a 42.4% uptime on the Sinister proc, meaning this makes the haste breakpoint meaningless 42.4% of the time. For single target, it looks like haste is equal to crit for marginal change, and the haste breakpoint is worth around 500 DPS.

    I'm not yet inclined to switch back to full crit, however, I am fairly certain crit is worth more in marginal value once a second target is considered. The haste breakpoint is worth more at that point as well, but seeing it isn't up for a good deal of the time, practically it could be wasted stats. I may change it back later tonight after I've thought about it some more. Feel free to post your opinions here, if you want.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    So, currently, here's what I have for the haste BP vs. crit discussion:

    Haste breakpoint build (OP): 192106.99 DPS
    Crit build: 191406.21 DPS
    % separation: 0.37%

    The gap closed between the two builds significantly because of the multiplier for chickens on the Sinister Primal Diamond. WrathCalcs is showing a 42.4% uptime on the Sinister proc, meaning this makes the haste breakpoint meaningless 42.4% of the time. For single target, it looks like haste is equal to crit for marginal change, and the haste breakpoint is worth around 500 DPS.

    I'm not yet inclined to switch back to full crit, however, I am fairly certain crit is worth more in marginal value once a second target is considered. The haste breakpoint is worth more at that point as well, but seeing it isn't up for a good deal of the time, practically it could be wasted stats. I may change it back later tonight after I've thought about it some more. Feel free to post your opinions here, if you want.
    Could you go into detail with the 42.4% uptime of the legendary gem? My napkin math is "some" percentages of, but to be fair I didn't take overwriting buffs into consideration, because that's rather unlikely with the way RPPM works... was WC using the 10xxx haste for the BP as the base of the calculations? And I wonder if BL, troll racial, NG etc. are all correctly included...

    Any information is very appreciated :P

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Didn't read all 8 pages of this so forgive me if this question was already asked/answered.

    I assume it worked for all DoT classes, but i know atleast for druids DoTs scaled dynamically with Crit in Cataclysm. I.E our T11 4PC once an eclipse was reached and you got the 100% crit buff your DoTs instantly started critting (no re-apply necessary).

    Was this changed in MoP? If not there would be no need to re-apply your DoTs when this trinket proc'd? And even if you did re-apply your DoTs they would stop critting once the duration wears off so it would be completely pointless.

    Can anyone clarify this?
    Crit is now snapshotted for us much like haste/%damage modifiers/spellpower. This was mentioned a couple weeks back in a blue post when it was brought up that other classes dots work that way, but ours didn't.

  15. #155
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    Could you go into detail with the 42.4% uptime of the legendary gem? My napkin math is "some" percentages of, but to be fair I didn't take overwriting buffs into consideration, because that's rather unlikely with the way RPPM works... was WC using the 10xxx haste for the BP as the base of the calculations? And I wonder if BL, troll racial, NG etc. are all correctly included...

    Any information is very appreciated :P
    In the current iteration of WrathCalcs, if you go to the Basic Calcs tab at the bottom you'll see the modelling for the Sinister meta. The realPPM is modelled by (base realPPM)*(spec modifier)*(1 + average haste without bloodlust or the meta) = 1.18*1.872*1.440135529 (crit build) or 1.18*1.872*1.500681 (haste build). These return values of 3.18 (crit) and 3.315 (haste) realPPM. For uptime, Hamlet has used a Poisson estimate, which I'm not skilled enough to explain. Regardless, this gives us 41.2% uptime (crit) and 42.4% uptime (haste). As far as I know from what GC posted, only true haste affects realPPM, and I'm unsure what's included in that.

    Let me know if I've said anything wrong.

  16. #156
    volatile talisman versus relic of yulon? Just curious on what you think for this.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Liax View Post
    volatile talisman versus relic of yulon? Just curious on what you think for this.
    Essence of Terror from H sha was part of our T14 BiS.

    Since Volatile as the same type of stats and is better I would assume it be better than Yu'lon.

    Correct me if wrong.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Sainiunit View Post
    Essence of Terror from H sha was part of our BiS.

    Since Volatile as the same type of stats and is better I would assume it be better than Yu'lon.

    Correct me if wrong.
    I didn't get it. I was just curious cause it only lasts 10 seconds. I'm assuming upgrading from a 484 (double upgraded relic) to a 522 is better than upgrading a 502 to a 522 via the neck considering I'm already friendly.

  19. #159
    Nadagast's just dropped for my guild off normal 25 man council of elders. but is still not listed in their loot table.

  20. #160
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aligx View Post
    Nadagast's just dropped for my guild off normal 25 man council of elders. but is still not listed in their loot table.
    Perfect. A good reason why I like to wait before making changes.

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