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  1. #61
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimak View Post
    Thanks for clearing me up !
    But the Red Sky Cloudcloack is thunderforged too ! It's ID is 95014
    Ra Den Drops two TF cloacks, the one with spirit mastery, and the other with hit haste.
    But as you said before, after the haste cap, haste devalues, the only way that Red Sky Cloudcloack would be better is with some reforges, but it won't change much.
    Doing some napkin maths it looks to be a slight DPS increase, but I'll have a more conclusive answer once I finish raiding.

    Edit: after fiddling with the cloak - in the most optimal way, where we just hit the hit/haste caps, the cloak comes out 3 DPS lower than the current cloak. That being said, I couldn't find a way to get close enough to the caps to make that happen. Looks like the current cloak is better because mastery > haste once we hit the cap, and we don't have as much excess haste as what we would have with Red Sky Cloudcloak on.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-02-18 at 08:03 AM.

  2. #62
    thats some interesting news about the haste breakpoint, however, i don't think it will be feasible for all but the best and most lucky moonkins out there. to belabour the old haste vs crit debate, the chances are we're not going to get a full set of thunderforged heroic gear and the 10k breakpoint will be better left for another tier. we'll have to see how well the trinket procs, as it could very well devalue crit to the point where gemming/reforging haste is viable, but I think evaluating the haste breakpoint from a non-thunderforged heroic perspective is probably more reasonable.

  3. #63
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    thats some interesting news about the haste breakpoint, however, i don't think it will be feasible for all but the best and most lucky moonkins out there. to belabour the old haste vs crit debate, the chances are we're not going to get a full set of thunderforged heroic gear and the 10k breakpoint will be better left for another tier. we'll have to see how well the trinket procs, as it could very well devalue crit to the point where gemming/reforging haste is viable, but I think evaluating the haste breakpoint from a non-thunderforged heroic perspective is probably more reasonable.
    I chucked in a quick (and most likely not the best) set-up in WrathCalcs of just normal gear, and with full-crit reforges DPS was at 151669.97, whereas haste BP (which was a lot of gems) sat at 153887.29 DPS. Should be an increase of 1.46%, which is quite negligible when we're considering all things. Overall, can't make a conclusion at this point in time as to which is better, and I'll just stick to reporting what WrathCalcs deems is the best option.

    Edit: just to clarify for everyone - nothing here is set in stone. It's still undetermined if the haste breakpoint is as practical as it is on paper, and for now we just can't tell. Once we have more information on movement/multi-target boss fights in ToT, we'll be able to make more of an educated decision.

    Edit 2: on closer inspection, the DPS increase from full crit -> haste breakpoint is 1.34%, smaller than the increase for the normal gear set-up. This does call to question the impact of a haste breakpoint build.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-02-18 at 08:45 AM.

  4. #64
    Slippy, with the implementation of 30 attempts per reset on Ra-Den its a reasonable assumption that a large portion of crit chickens wont kill Ra-Den for a large portion of the tier, is there anywhere you could post up a bis list discounting Ra-Den Drops?

  5. #65
    Thanks for the clarification Slippy and for all the good work you're doing !

    Knows anyboby where the Nadagast weapon drops ?

  6. #66
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demise uk View Post
    Slippy, with the implementation of 30 attempts per reset on Ra-Den its a reasonable assumption that a large portion of crit chickens wont kill Ra-Den for a large portion of the tier, is there anywhere you could post up a bis list discounting Ra-Den Drops?
    This is best in slot list. People said the same thing last tier about heroic Elite protectors. He can't start making BiS lists that cater to everyone's specific progression. There will be a lot of moonkins out there who only kill a couple or none heroic modes, there lists will be different as well.

    Anyways as far as your specific request, afaik he doesn't actually have any unique loot. His entire loot table is comprised of all the thunderforged gear that can drop from the other 12 bosses. That's the perk of killing him, guaranteed thunderforged gear. But those pieces also have a chance to drop from some other boss somewhere. So even if your guild can't kill him, it's not impossible to get the gear on this list.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-02-18 at 04:15 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    This is best in slot list. People said the same thing last tier about heroic Elite protectors. He can't start making BiS lists that cater to everyone's specific progression. There will be a lot of moonkins out there who only kill a couple or none heroic modes, there lists will be different as well.

    Anyways as far as your specific request, afaik he doesn't actually have any unique loot. His entire loot table is comprised of all the thunderforged gear that can drop from the other 12 bosses. That's the perk of killing him, guaranteed thunderforged gear. But those pieces also have a chance to drop from some other boss somewhere. So even if your guild can't kill him, it's not impossible to get the gear on this list.
    Honestly, from what the blue posts have been saying it sounds like killing Ra-den will almost be a given if you're able to kill Lei Shen on heroic.

  8. #68
    It's an Algalon analogue fight (i.e. the difficulty is in the limited exposure your raid will have to the encounter, not the encounter itself per se). Not that it'll be trivial, but a BiS list is for BiS gear.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    I'm not sure if everything can be Thunderforged, but at the moment wowdb and wowhead don't have other Thunderforged items available, so we're sticking with what's up currently.
    Yeah. Everything except tier, but like you said, they aren't in any database yet. I suspect it'll change a piece of two around but everything looks awesome so far!

  10. #70
    Would the items listed here also work for a normal BiS? I get that off piece chest wont be available on normal.

  11. #71
    Is there a specific reason you used crit/hit instead of crit/spirit gems?


    Quote Originally Posted by invadermatt1 View Post
    Would the items listed here also work for a normal BiS? I get that off piece chest wont be available on normal.
    many of the items are from ra-den.

  12. #72
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bl00mie View Post
    Is there a specific reason you used crit/hit instead of crit/spirit gems?
    No, they serve the same purpose.

  13. #73
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    For the crit vs. haste BP debate - no updates yet, I tinkered with WrathCalcs a little to try to simulate a 2/3 target fight, but it's pretty inaccurate and oversimplifies the whole thing, so in the end I asked Hamlet/Tec if they could look into it. Might be able to get a WrathCalcs version that can model 1-3 target fights (which would be incredibly awesome), but don't bank on it.

    For the moment, the list will stay the same as it is right now (haste BP), and if no conclusive, maths-based answers, have been achieved by 5.2, I'll most likely revert the list back to the crit build, as there shouldn't be much of a change from 5.1 to 5.2, bar the trinket.

  14. #74
    Blademaster Wheatley's Avatar
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    Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen is now available on PTR for testing!

  15. #75
    On the PTR right now testing this trinket. It's a confusing one. With the 0.5 RPPM, that's like a 2 min ICD, right? (read the blue forums, still trying to wrap my head around the idea). But anyways, when the trinket procs should we THEN use CA and Incarnation? This would elevate the RNG of not being eclipse, also having the NG 4-piece bonus up.

    Beginning: wait for trinket to proc then bust out CDs
    2 min: Trinket will proc, proceed with CD-less dots
    3 min: CDs will come up, proceed to use it
    4 min: Trinket will proc again, proceed with CD-less dots.
    6 min: Pray to Talos that CDs are up and are now waiting for the trinket poc.
    Last edited by Sainiunit; 2013-02-20 at 04:25 AM. Reason: Spelling/grammer

  16. #76
    Blademaster Wheatley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sainiunit View Post
    With the 0.5 RPPM, that's like a 2 min ICD, right?
    It has no ICD, I was just playing around with it and had it proc 3 times in a row within 15 seconds. Doesn't seem overly strong a single target fight, but on a fight with multiple targets if you can use Celestial alignment fast enough was very strong, needs more testing though. Also don't like that is a proc would much prefer it if it was an on use trinket.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
    It has no ICD, I was just playing around with it and had it proc 3 times in a row within 15 seconds. Doesn't seem overly strong a single target fight, but on a fight with multiple targets if you can use Celestial alignment fast enough was very strong, needs more testing though. Also don't like that is a proc would much prefer it if it was an on use trinket.
    Damn, Then I just had bad RNG. And I just don't understand RPPM at alllll.
    Last edited by Sainiunit; 2013-02-20 at 04:48 AM.

  18. #78
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    The most likely use of the trinket and cooldowns would be a normal burst rotation (start 1 cast from Lunar, then pop Incarnation/CA at the normal burst times), and as soon as the trinket procs you reapply both dots. If there's 2 targets, reapply all four dots. We shouldn't be saving cooldowns for it, CA inclusive. When it procs, it procs, and we have to react with dot reapplication.

  19. #79
    Mechagnome lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sainiunit View Post
    Damn, Then I just had bad RNG. And I just don't understand RPPM at alllll.
    rppm = rppm (0,5 in case of this trinket) * 1+haste (from your char screen) * time (from the last chance it had to proc, aka from the last time one of your spells hit dots tick) /60

    so basically its around 0,5*1,4*0,6/60 = 0,7% chance per spell/dot tick to proc (spells hit every ~0,6seconds on average)

    now to calculate the average time it takes between the procs, you can use the following formula

    1-(1-proc chance)^x = 0,5*time (0,6 in this example)

    in the end this will look something like this

    ln(1-0,5*time) / ln(1-proc chance) = x

    With the stats i used it'd be ~50,8 seconds between each proc on average (please do correct me if my math is out of place)

  20. #80
    Average time between procs is way simpler than that. Just 60s / (0.5(RPPM)*(1+haste)). Should be around 85 seconds.

    50.8 seconds can't be right, anyway, as that would be way over 1 PPM. You'd need over 100% haste to get there.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-02-20 at 01:42 PM.

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