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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Probably not a right place to ask but since ppl are talking about gear well then i'll ask here..

    Yesterday i got Breath of the Hydra ( normal not thunderforged ) and today I was testing it in some dungeon and only got 4 procs and ended up with <20% uptime. I know its based on dots and thats why i used Scholomance to test it so i can dot every single mob but still got only 4 procs while my Volatile talisman had 12+ procs and ended up with 45% . So am i doung something wrong or that trinket has insane ICD or its broken atm..
    The PPM is really low, on Council I had 3 procs 10% uptime, the week before I was using Light of Cosmos and I had 10 procs 43% uptime.

  2. #242
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    The breath has a really strong proc, which causes it to have a lower amount of ppm (not thesame as an ICD).
    Basically if you compare the 502 LFR breath and the 502 heroic Light of the Cosmos, you see they have an equal amount of haste, thesame proc duration, but the breath has a 6088 int proc where the LotC has a 3653 int proc.
    So it's not bugged, it's just really strong when the proc is up.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    The breath has a really strong proc, which causes it to have a lower amount of ppm (not thesame as an ICD).
    Basically if you compare the 502 LFR breath and the 502 heroic Light of the Cosmos, you see they have an equal amount of haste, thesame proc duration, but the breath has a 6088 int proc where the LotC has a 3653 int proc.
    So it's not bugged, it's just really strong when the proc is up.
    So trinket can be useless on some fights since it can proc during "bad" time and then you lose dps.... Well thats sux

  4. #244
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    I've spoken to several Moonkin with have reported huge improvements in their DPS on single target fights after obtaining UVLS. I'm beginning to wonder if the nerfed proc rate for us is actually working or not. Those moonkin have private logs so that's a no go, anyone have a UVLS with lots of data on WoL?
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-03-21 at 02:57 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    I've spoken to several Moonkin with have reported 20-30k improvements in their DPS on single target fights after obtaining UVLS. I'm beginning to wonder if the nerfed proc rate for us is actually working or not. Those moonkin have private logs so that's a no go, anyone have a UVLS with lots of data on WoL?
    Wouldn't mind seeing these logs too, heading towards lei shen on normal with my guild atm not sure if I should push for UVLS or wait for CEoB/BoTH

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    I've spoken to several Moonkin with have reported huge improvements in their DPS on single target fights after obtaining UVLS. I'm beginning to wonder if the nerfed proc rate for us is actually working or not. Those moonkin have private logs so that's a no go, anyone have a UVLS with lots of data on WoL?
    We did get part of our nerf reverted, and along with its increased chance to proc at the beginning of a fight, it may well be a better option than one of our current trinkets (I think Cha-Ye's > Breath atm). Will have to see once those changes are in WrathCalcs. At the moment, UVLS is around ~2k DPS below Breath or Cha-Ye's, but the changes should boost its value significantly.

  7. #247
    Since I haven't seen this done anywhere yet, I took a stab at comparing Cha, Hydra, and UVLS given the recent changes. I started with the T15H setup in the latest version of WrathCalcs (130318) (elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-balance_wrathcalcs/p51/).

    Then, as Hamlet suggested in the above link, I accounted for:
    • the 5% increase to base proc rate for all three trinkets,
    • the effect of the new scaling proc rate after long proc-free intervals which Hamlet worked out to be a 13% boost to overall proc frequency (twitter.com/HamletEJ/status/311953149613195264),
    • and the 30% boost to the proc rate of UVLS.

    So, in the Basic Calcs tab I changed:
    • Uptime for Hydra = 1-EXP(-0.5*1.05*1.13*G37*20/60)
    • Uptime for Cha = 1-EXP(-0.77*1.05*1.13*(1+D35)*G37*10/60)
    • Mean proc time for UVLS = 60/(0.25*1.05*1.13*1.3*G37*1.15^(H42/15))

    I then compared the heroic versions of the three trinkets:
    UVLS, Hydra: 197886 dps
    Cha, Hydra: 198591 dps
    Cha, UVLS: 199128 dps

    So, in this setup Cha > UVLS > Hydra.

    Keep in mind that the relative values of these trinkets can change dramatically with the rest of your setup. For example, with my low ilvl (508) setup with 4pT14 I found that UVLS + Hydra was the best pair of normal trinkets.

    When you test things for your own setup, be aware that WrathCalcs does not yet adjust the proc rate of TF or Heroic TF UVLS properly (as described at us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993861?page=48#953). A quick hack would be to temporarily change the value of cell H42 in Basic Calcs to 0 (while testing TF) or 13 (while testing Heroic TF). (Though Heroic TF is not in the gear list yet.) Make sure to change it back to the proper formula!

    (Or just manually change it each time: -65 for CMs, -26 for LFR, -6 for normal, 0 for TF, 7 for Heroic, 13 for Heroic TF.)

  8. #248
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarm View Post
    Since I haven't seen this done anywhere yet, I took a stab at comparing Cha, Hydra, and UVLS given the recent changes. I started with the T15H setup in the latest version of WrathCalcs (130318) (elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-balance_wrathcalcs/p51/).

    Then, as Hamlet suggested in the above link, I accounted for:
    • the 5% increase to base proc rate for all three trinkets,
    • the effect of the new scaling proc rate after long proc-free intervals which Hamlet worked out to be a 13% boost to overall proc frequency (twitter.com/HamletEJ/status/311953149613195264),
    • and the 30% boost to the proc rate of UVLS.

    So, in the Basic Calcs tab I changed:
    • Uptime for Hydra = 1-EXP(-0.5*1.05*1.13*G37*20/60)
    • Uptime for Cha = 1-EXP(-0.77*1.05*1.13*(1+D35)*G37*10/60)
    • Mean proc time for UVLS = 60/(0.25*1.05*1.13*1.3*G37*1.15^(H42/15))

    I then compared the heroic versions of the three trinkets:
    UVLS, Hydra: 197886 dps
    Cha, Hydra: 198591 dps
    Cha, UVLS: 199128 dps

    So, in this setup Cha > UVLS > Hydra.

    Keep in mind that the relative values of these trinkets can change dramatically with the rest of your setup. For example, with my low ilvl (508) setup with 4pT14 I found that UVLS + Hydra was the best pair of normal trinkets.

    When you test things for your own setup, be aware that WrathCalcs does not yet adjust the proc rate of TF or Heroic TF UVLS properly (as described at us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993861?page=48#953). A quick hack would be to temporarily change the value of cell H42 in Basic Calcs to 0 (while testing TF) or 13 (while testing Heroic TF). (Though Heroic TF is not in the gear list yet.) Make sure to change it back to the proper formula!

    (Or just manually change it each time: -65 for CMs, -26 for LFR, -6 for normal, 0 for TF, 7 for Heroic, 13 for Heroic TF.)
    Nice! I'll chuck those changes into my WrathCalcs as well, but the changes look to favour what we thought. UVLS should be a nice upgrade now, and Cha-Ye's was outpacing Hydra earlier (for the BiS list anyway). I'll update the OP with trinket changes once I update my own WrathCalcs.

    Thanks!

    Edit: the current BiS setup in WrathCalcs is slightly outdated. For my trinket comparison:

    Hydra/Cha-Ye's: 199535
    Hydra/UVLS: 198750
    Cha-Ye's/UVLS: 200035

    That would make the order still Cha-Ye's > UVLS > Hydra, just slightly higher numbers. But, does mean UVLS knocks out Hydra, so get your Weak Auras ready!
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-22 at 07:57 AM.

  9. #249
    Heroic Jinrokh and Horridon logs with UVLS (Look at Midru, btw)

    I find the normal version of uvls quite good because with the procs i can go on a starsurge rampage and i sometimes manage to exted my INC + CA pull buffed dot for ages.
    Ranked 32 on moonkins with uvls, with bad playing and wasted dps, but still. In my case the trinket procced quite frequently, sometimes it procced a few times in a row, sometimes it didnt proc for a good time.

  10. #250
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midru View Post
    Heroic Jinrokh and Horridon logs with UVLS (Look at Midru, btw)

    I find the normal version of uvls quite good because with the procs i can go on a starsurge rampage and i sometimes manage to exted my INC + CA pull buffed dot for ages.
    Ranked 32 on moonkins with uvls, with bad playing and wasted dps, but still. In my case the trinket procced quite frequently, sometimes it procced a few times in a row, sometimes it didnt proc for a good time.
    Yeah and that's just going to happen with the RPPM system - you can get lucky, and you can have unlucky streaks (modified by recent changes though). Looks like if you get slightly lucky you may see a good jump in DPS. UVLS is set as the 2nd BiS trinket besides Cha-Ye's at the moment anyway.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Yeah and that's just going to happen with the RPPM system - you can get lucky, and you can have unlucky streaks (modified by recent changes though). Looks like if you get slightly lucky you may see a good jump in DPS. UVLS is set as the 2nd BiS trinket besides Cha-Ye's at the moment anyway.
    Does this hold true on multi target also? if is UVLS worse here?

  12. #252
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    Its even better in multi target situations. How ever I dont think that simcraft and WC can estimate its value properly. In multi target situations a alternative opener increases your damage by tons compared to the normal opener. That needs proper optimizing and modelling first.

  13. #253
    Mr. Robot is ranking Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne above Ritual Dagger of the Mind's Eye also. I am a bit confused on this because what I know about stat priority, Crit trumps Haste. The only reasoning I can see behind Torall being higher than Mind's Eye is the haste on the mace is needed to reach haste breakpoint. Is this the case?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinagami091 View Post
    Mr. Robot is ranking Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne above Ritual Dagger of the Mind's Eye also. I am a bit confused on this because what I know about stat priority, Crit trumps Haste. The only reasoning I can see behind Torall being higher than Mind's Eye is the haste on the mace is needed to reach haste breakpoint. Is this the case?
    If you check WrathCalcs you will probably see that Haste is worth more than Crit point to point. The reason we go for crit is because it's much better for movement dps and I believe a bit better for multidotting over (late) haste breakpoints - multidoting.

  15. #255
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinagami091 View Post
    Mr. Robot is ranking Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne above Ritual Dagger of the Mind's Eye also. I am a bit confused on this because what I know about stat priority, Crit trumps Haste. The only reasoning I can see behind Torall being higher than Mind's Eye is the haste on the mace is needed to reach haste breakpoint. Is this the case?
    I compared Torall's vs. Ritual Dagger in the normal list, and it still holds true even here. When we do a point-by-point comparison on the weapons, and take 1 int = 2 crit, 1 crit = 1.5 haste/spirit, 1 mastery = 0.85 haste/spirit (numbers very close to what WrathCalcs reports, but with crit weighted higher for multidotting), it showed Torall's was quite a bit higher. This is mostly from being able to reforge spirit -> crit still, as well as Torall's having 80 int over the Dagger. If you want the SHE (spirit-haste equivalent) numbers, check out the normal BiS thread.

    And no, we aren't shooting for any haste breakpoints anymore, besides the almost-impossible-not-to-get 5273 breakpoint. The 10289 breakpoint sacrifices too much crit to be a viable jump, coupled with its devaluing due to the Sinister primal diamond.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 02:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    Does this hold true on multi target also? if is UVLS worse here?
    With multiple targets, all the trinkets should scale equally, so there shouldn't be a DPS hierarchy change just because of the introduction of more targets. Shouldn't be, anyway. I don't have any maths to back that up though.

  16. #256
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    Is there anyone playing with Uvls and Cha'ye? Im looking for some logs to study.

    edit:
    I found one lucky fellow who has both and I see some interesting results, though Id like to see more logs.
    Last edited by Joeri2; 2013-03-24 at 06:05 PM.

  17. #257

  18. #258
    Have you looked at the two hand weapon Suen-Wo, Spire of the Falling Sun the stat budget seems quite high but I don't have any real weightings to compare it. It might help drop hit too.
    ---
    nvm it sucks >.>
    Last edited by Biggles1y3; 2013-03-25 at 12:35 AM.

  19. #259
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles1y3 View Post
    Have you looked at the two hand weapon Suen-Wo, Spire of the Falling Sun the stat budget seems quite high but I don't have any real weightings to compare it. It might help drop hit too.
    ---
    nvm it sucks >.>
    Typically staves pall in comparison to MH/OH combinations at the moment, due to the 180 int off-hand enchant, and just the overall stat boost. Blizzard hasn't really favoured staves since Wrath with the Staff-only enchant. Suen-Wo isn't terribly bad, but it's not very close either to the current setup.

  20. #260
    MH/OH combos have been superior for too long, it's why I was so eager for a 2H to finally be BiS. ^_^

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