[Balance] T15H BiS List

[Slippykins]

Fixed over here, thanks for the catch:

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-...2/#post2270286

Also a bunch of new items from the last couple of days to screw up your list again, Slippy! Updated to your latest profile as well.

Yay! I'll have to check it all out once I finish washing all my clothes... may take a few hours. D:

[Cyberowl]

I took a look on the Durumu loot table and was like "lol wtf, like 3 items could be BiS!" and I went to look it up...nah, sorry, Spirit Crit is only great if you don't have the hit, with 5.2 BiS you prefer Mastery > Hit because you are at the point you can't reforge it away

taking Mastery > Spirit...wonder what will happen in 5.4 or once ilvl upgrades come back. Every DD has issues with their hit now, wonder if Blizzard will react and do some convert hit over cap to something useful change or something like that

[huth]

Good to know! Had a feeling most of these heroic pieces would have their Thunderforged counterpart.

Given that Blizz outright told us so prior to 5.2 release, that's hardly surprising. Everything except tier pieces has a Thunderforged equivalent.

[Slippykins]

Given that Blizz outright told us so prior to 5.2 release, that's hardly surprising. Everything except tier pieces has a Thunderforged equivalent.

I know, there were a good amount of dissenters about though. And on top, I believe Tec was having issues with creating a rule for normal -> thunderforged gear stats, so it wasn't possible to model them in WrathCalcs until they dropped.

There shouldn't be many changes with the current list, maybe a couple as we get into full thunderforged, and maybe a couple again when 2/2 upgrading is considered. Blizz is really shovelling spirit down our throats this expansion.

[xtramuscle]

So I'm seeing some definite inconsistencies with UVLS. Anyone else? Largely you only ever have time to get 2 dots up, possibly a 3rd dot on a second target if you're UBER quick. That being said its effectiveness doesn't really change on a multi target fight, if anything I'd say it goes down (due to having more dots up, you'll reliably gain shooting stars more often anyway).

So basically, if you assume when it procs you'd be fairly unlucky to not have NG active (but it does happen /frowny face!)
Its more likely you'll be in an eclipse (due to increased eclipse energy generated whilst outside of an eclipse) but again, this happens too! xD
...and that you only manage to get 2 dots refreshed regardless of single or multi target fights.

All that being said, on Jin'rokh last night, it procced and I refreshed both dots and then proceeded to get 3 starfires off before my first shooting stars proc - DAFUQ
**been looking through logs but can't really determine which attempt it was that took place, but it definitely happened. **

without a doubt its best if it procs when CA is up, on a multi target fight, because you essentially get double the dots up int he time, meaning CRAZY SS SPAMAGE but this got me thinking, now that both moonfire and sunfire have the same duration EXACTLY (I believe IS + MS/SF used to have different durations?) Does this mean DOTs applied by CA tick simultaneously meaning you don't actually benefit from more shooting stars procs (ie. 2 proc but you can only cast 1), only higher SS damage due to having CDs up?

Anyway here's the log from a few wipes incase you want to see them for yourselves http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1338&e=1605

Honestly the deeps this trinket helps me do make me feel all warm and fuzzy in side, but it is a PAIN IN THE ARSE to play with. Even with a HUGE weak aura, and an Air Horn Blast you can fail to maximize the proc, due to silly things (especially on Horridon HC) like the Dino charging a door and going out of range, the add you were targetting at the time (and consequently dotted) died almost straight away, having to waste the dots on the STUPID PINK DINO etc etc.

I'd imagine that this trinket is a bigger DPS increase on a single target fight than on a heavy multi dot fight; which leads to my next question. If for example its an AOE phase on any given fight, you've just hit solar and theres 10+ adds up, would it be a DPS increased to get 2 hurricane ticks off, or apply 2 dots for proceeding SS spam?

[Slippykins]

So I'm seeing some definite inconsistencies with UVLS. Anyone else? Largely you only ever have time to get 2 dots up, possibly a 3rd dot on a second target if you're UBER quick. That being said its effectiveness doesn't really change on a multi target fight, if anything I'd say it goes down (due to having more dots up, you'll reliably gain shooting stars more often anyway).

So basically, if you assume when it procs you'd be fairly unlucky to not have NG active (but it does happen /frowny face!)
Its more likely you'll be in an eclipse (due to increased eclipse energy generated whilst outside of an eclipse) but again, this happens too! xD
...and that you only manage to get 2 dots refreshed regardless of single or multi target fights.

All that being said, on Jin'rokh last night, it procced and I refreshed both dots and then proceeded to get 3 starfires off before my first shooting stars proc - DAFUQ
**been looking through logs but can't really determine which attempt it was that took place, but it definitely happened. **

without a doubt its best if it procs when CA is up, on a multi target fight, because you essentially get double the dots up int he time, meaning CRAZY SS SPAMAGE but this got me thinking, now that both moonfire and sunfire have the same duration EXACTLY (I believe IS + MS/SF used to have different durations?) Does this mean DOTs applied by CA tick simultaneously meaning you don't actually benefit from more shooting stars procs (ie. 2 proc but you can only cast 1), only higher SS damage due to having CDs up?

Anyway here's the log from a few wipes incase you want to see them for yourselves http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1338&e=1605

Honestly the deeps this trinket helps me do make me feel all warm and fuzzy in side, but it is a PAIN IN THE ARSE to play with. Even with a HUGE weak aura, and an Air Horn Blast you can fail to maximize the proc, due to silly things (especially on Horridon HC) like the Dino charging a door and going out of range, the add you were targetting at the time (and consequently dotted) died almost straight away, having to waste the dots on the STUPID PINK DINO etc etc.

I'd imagine that this trinket is a bigger DPS increase on a single target fight than on a heavy multi dot fight; which leads to my next question. If for example its an AOE phase on any given fight, you've just hit solar and theres 10+ adds up, would it be a DPS increased to get 2 hurricane ticks off, or apply 2 dots for proceeding SS spam?

Looking at your logs and using the expression editor to show Perfect Aim procs and Shooting Stars refreshes:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...22Vexxe%22+%29

You can see the three times Perfect Aim procced, and for the 20 seconds after it procs, you get a load of Shooting Stars being refreshed (overwritten). Note that this is for a single-target fight only. Let's see... on that kill you had 5 refreshes during the first proc, 6 during the second, and 3 during the third. Total lost Starsurges: 14. Changing the expression editor to show just Shooting Stars procs, we see 12 procs during the first window, 6 during the first, and 5 during the third. Total SS procs during Perfect Aim: 23. Percentage of lost SS procs: 60.87%. For some reason, you lost all of your SS procs during the second proc of Perfect Aim, and most of them from the other two procs. Not sure what happened on that second proc though.

From those numbers themselves, that's going to be doing DPS severely lower than what is modelled - WrathCalcs assumes you use each proc. Now, this is probably just because you were running away from Jin'rohk placing a lightning ball or something, but still... doens't bode well for the trinket if that amount of wasted SS procs are seen on single-target.

And you're correct for CA. If they tick at the same rates and are applied at the exact same moment, and assuming the Shooting Stars buff procs on both, then yes you will only be able to use 1 proc of the two you'd receive. So the damage is increased from the extra DoT always critting, but it isn't proportionate to having two dots applied. That sheds some light on your Jin'rokh reapplications of Shooting Stars - it's possible that you were getting procs a moment or two after the first Shooting Stars proc'd, and you weren't able to press the button fast enough to use it.

Regardless, we'll need more data before we can make many conclusions. Are you able to log yourself using the trinket on some dummies? I'd like to see two major things:

1. Actual proc chances from DoTs on one, two or three targets, over 10 minute intervals,
2. Number of Shooting Stars wasted when proc is in conjunction with CA and without.

If you don't want to waste the time, it's no problem; if you are, I'll PM you some tests I'd like you to run. Nothing difficult, just time consuming.

I've heard of inconsistencies with multiple aspects of UVLS, so I wouldn't be surprised.

[Deleted]

I've said this many times already, but i can't write on US forums and GC does not read twitter.

We have become what Ret Paladins were fixed for in MoP.
A heavy RNG dependant spec.
- Our dots lasts only 12 seconds unlike 18 before Mop
- The only way to extend them is to crit with a casted nuke
- Starsurge is now a RNG proc on a RNG dot crit (paladins complained for ages because rng on rng)
- To get more crit we lose Haste, losing haste made starfire casts 0.3-0.4 sec slower than in Cataclysm
- Everytime we cast a starfire and a Shooting Star procs, we can't stop the cast because it would be turn in a wasted GCD and a loss of DPS
- Everytime the SS is pending while we cast Starfire we are possibly wasting even more Shooting Stars procs
- To prevent us from instant killing other player with Dragonwrath Tarecgosa's Rest they have given Starsurge an unique, dumb, useless mechanic: We can't fire off a Starsurge until the preiovus one has hit the target.
This is because back in Cata if we got an SS proc while we were casting Starsurge we could fire off 2 of them at the same time + DTR procs.

That mechanic could be avoided by standing the the face of our enemies, making the spell' flight time null.
That mechanic is crippling us when we multidot because if we have 6-8 dots rolling, all the SS procs are wasted if you are, justly, at 40y range

The more we gear up, the more crit chance we gain, resulting in more and more starsurges being wasted.
If anyone here can write on the US forums please ask the dev to remove the "starsurge in flight" restriction, because we already have GCD like every other class to prevent double/triple spells from flying togeter, and we no longer use Dragonwtah.
Making the SS proc stackable to at least 2 would also help when we get back to back procs while casting starfire.

Having a 100% crit trinket is nice and dandy in simulations, in a real raid it is not because of dumb class mechanics.

[lappee]

Whinewhinewhine and whine...

This is T15H Bis List thread, not "Lets whine whine and whine because reason X and Y"

and fyi, theres no such mechanic as you described

[Alzu]

- Starsurge is now a RNG proc on a RNG dot crit (paladins complained for ages because rng on rng)

It sucks, but the pain grinding the Sandstone Drake's recipe required three layers of rng! Starsurges could be worse!

- Everytime we cast a starfire and a Shooting Star procs, we can't stop the cast because it would be turn in a wasted GCD and a loss of DPS
- Everytime the SS is pending while we cast Starfire we are possibly wasting even more Shooting Stars procs

Sure, it depends on when the proc comes but I usually cancel my Starfires to use the proc. The GCD resets as soon as you cancel the cast so there is minimal loss in DPS.

Now I haven't done any math behind this, but I feel that with high enough crit, the procs are often enough that I can rely that by cancelling the cast, I'm gaining at least one Starsurge somewhere in the fight making it worth it.

[Slippykins]

Let's keep the discussion in here related to gear and talent choices for optimal DPS, please. If you'd like to debate Boomkin mechanics and problems related, chuck it in the Moonkin Guide, as that's where most of that stuff is.

[Deleted]

I have this a theory about uvls having an interesting synergy with cha'ye's. I am curious if the theory behind the way those trinkets work back it up though. What seems to be the case; when uvls procs your crit chance increases by 100%, your crit chance doesnt become 100%, no it actually increases to say to your current crit chance + 100%. Now when this proc is up, from as far as I understand how the trinkets work, the RPPM of cha'ye's is nearly doubled in that 4 second window. On top of that it triggers of crit damage(including dots) which means we are sending out a whole lot of triggers to cha'ye's. Thus one could say when uvls procs it sometimes tends to almost proc cha'ye's aswell. Now I did some log research into this and I found positive results there. Obviously I didnt have a large enough sample base to really claim that it is true. Does theorycrafting backs this up is my question.

[xtramuscle]

I have this a theory about uvls having an interesting synergy with cha'ye's. I am curious if the theory behind the way those trinkets work back it up though. What seems to be the case; when uvls procs your crit chance increases by 100%, your crit chance doesnt become 100%, no it actually increases to say to your current crit chance + 100%. Now when this proc is up, from as far as I understand how the trinkets work, the RPPM of cha'ye's is nearly doubled in that 4 second window. On top of that it triggers of crit damage(including dots) which means we are sending out a whole lot of triggers to cha'ye's. Thus one could say when uvls procs it sometimes tends to almost proc cha'ye's aswell. Now I did some log research into this and I found positive results there. Obviously I didnt have a large enough sample base to really claim that it is true. Does theorycrafting backs this up is my question.

RPPM are affected by haste not crit. But with this particular trinket only proccing off critical hits, and UVLS giving you 100%+ crit it stands to reason you'll see and increased rate in this trinket proccing directly after a UVLS procs. But that is purely due to you having more things critting (ie 2-3 pure crit dots) nothing to do with crit affecting the RPPM itself.

(Example: If you were using another RPPM trinket, not based purely on critical hits, you'd see no direct link in RPPM from UVLS Proccing).

[Deleted]

You need to do you homework before you attempt to make wise statements my friend .

[huth]

RPPM are affected by haste not crit. But with this particular trinket only proccing off critical hits, and UVLS giving you 100%+ crit it stands to reason you'll see and increased rate in this trinket proccing directly after a UVLS procs. But that is purely due to you having more things critting (ie 2-3 pure crit dots) nothing to do with crit affecting the RPPM itself.

(Example: If you were using another RPPM trinket, not based purely on critical hits, you'd see no direct link in RPPM from UVLS Proccing).

Cha-Ye specificially does scale with crit.

[xtramuscle]

You need to do you homework before you attempt to make wise statements my friend .

How so?

@huth

cha-Ye specifically does scale with crit.

The UVLS proc (100%crit) itself does not cause Cha-Ye to proc. As the tooltip says 'when your spells deal critical damage, you have a chance to gain...'

The actual proc from UVLS does not deal damage thus it has no direct influence on Cha-ye. However as I said in my original post, putting up 2-3 100% crit dots during Perfect Aim (the UVLS Proc) will indirectly result in an increased chance for Cha-Ye to proc in the seconds directly after the UVLS proc.

If another trinket like UVLS existed that proc'd haste instead of crit, haste directly increases the RPPM mechanics on RPPM Trinkets. This is the point I was trying to make in my first reply.

[huth]

Cha-Ye scales directly with your crit in exactly the same way it scales with haste.
This has nothing to do with it proccing only from crits, as the RPPM mechanic completely nullifies that part.

Proc chance for Cha-Ye is RPPM*(1+crit)*(1+haste)*t_proc/60s (t_proc = time since last event capable of proccing the effect)
This was explicitly mentioned by GC during the 5.2 PTR in the big mechanics and TC thread.

[xtramuscle]

Cha-Ye scales directly with your crit in exactly the same way it scales with haste.
This has nothing to do with it proccing only from crits, as the RPPM mechanic completely nullifies that part.

Proc chance for Cha-Ye is RPPM*(1+crit)*(1+haste)*t_proc/60s (t_proc = time since last event capable of proccing the effect)
This was explicitly mentioned by GC during the 5.2 PTR in the big mechanics and TC thread.

If this is true I stand corrected.

[lappee]

If this is true I stand corrected.

it scales, but im not sure if the formula is the same as posted above.

[Slippykins]

Few changes today:

Got through the recent TF additions, and made a switch from Ro'shak's Remembrance to Durumu's Captive Eyeball. Was able to get rid of a good deal of spirit, turned out to be ~140 DPS increase. Ra-den's Evolving Signet is still above the other options.

Worldbender Waistband Girdle of Night and Day are almost the exact same in DPS (1 DPS difference), so I'm going to leave the current belt in for reforge purposes.

Roots of Pain still looks to be the best boot option.

Otherwise, just a bunch of heroic -> heroic TF upgrades coming in. Pretty much every slot now has the appropriate H TF option in it, so we're getting close to a full BiS list now! Yay .

Edit: I'm having problems with my WrathCalcs for total DPS in the new version, so I'll be leaving it at what it was previously for now.

Edit 2: Lei-Shen's Orb of Command is ~80 DPS higher than Fetish of the Hydra. Changing. Note that I've used a Crafty gem in the Orb, this is just for reforging because I'm bad. An int/crit gem would be just as good (probably better) to use when you're able to use tools for reforging.

[huth]

it scales, but im not sure if the formula is the same as posted above.

Well, GC put it as having an actual RPPM of (1+crit)*RPPM, but that's the same thing in different wrapping since it's commutative.