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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    so we basically agree
    Yup!

    I was driving at the fact the only reason those "omg crazy" moments seem significant in WOW is because the gameplay of Warcraft is so limited by role. Whereas GW2 is far more free-wheeling.

  2. #602
    Field Marshal Preheet's Avatar
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    i feel like GW2 implemented everything that was lacking in games like WoW, and improved gameplay by a crap load. I personally love WoW, have been playing it for years, but I recently started playing GW2 and can honestly say that the game play, leveling, questing & just the game in general is a LOT more intriguing and fun. Take this opinion from someone who has been playing both for quite some time.

  3. #603
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Whereas GW2 is far more free-wheeling.
    Combined with the quality of encounter design and you actually find that it's just as limiting if not more. Doing extraordinary things that shouldn't be possible with imposed limits are what drives interesting situations. You're exactly right, except youre expressing it negatively.

    I would argue exactly what you did, except that's what makes the lack of roles in these encounters more limiting. It basically amounts to a gameplay 'whatever'. Also, jack of all trades, master of none comes to mind as to why the potential enjoyment doesn't have such a high ceiling.
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  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    This sort of confuses me. Leveling to me has always been a method to reach new content. It's never been about being able to go back to old content just to one-shot everything. I suppose it can make you feel "powerful," but it's also fairly pointless.
    It creates a feeling of growth. It's less about intending to go back and slaughter spiders, but the feeling that if you did go back to a starting area, then you aren't at risk. There's a value to outgrowing stuff, because it feels like a progression. If games focus too much on keeping old content "fresh", they lose the forest for the trees.

    Learning your ABC's might be difficult when you're a toddler. When you're an adult it isn't supposed to be hard anymore. It's supposed to be trivial. Completely different things are supposed to challenge you -- and that's fine so long as those new challenges exist (and this is where some games fall short -- they run out of things to challenge players). But if nothing ever becomes trivial (because of downleveling), then there's a risk that a player doesn't feel like their "epic journey" has taken place.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Combined with the quality of encounter design and you actually find that it's just as limiting if not more. Doing extraordinary things that shouldn't be possible with imposed limits are what drives interesting situations. You're exactly right, except youre expressing it negatively.

    I would argue exactly what you did, except that's what makes the lack of roles in these encounters more limiting. It basically amounts to a gameplay 'whatever'. Also, jack of all trades, master of none comes to mind as to why the potential enjoyment doesn't have such a high ceiling.
    The negative is poor encounter design.

    GW1 had no role trinity. Encounters were quite open. As that game had a superior set of gameplay rules and more thoughtful design.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
    It creates a feeling of growth. It's less about intending to go back and slaughter spiders, but the feeling that if you did go back to a starting area, then you aren't at risk. There's a value to outgrowing stuff, because it feels like a progression. If games focus too much on keeping old content "fresh", they lose the forest for the trees.

    Learning your ABC's might be difficult when you're a toddler. When you're an adult it isn't supposed to be hard anymore. It's supposed to be trivial. Completely different things are supposed to challenge you -- and that's fine so long as those new challenges exist (and this is where some games fall short -- they run out of things to challenge players). But if nothing ever becomes trivial (because of downleveling), then there's a risk that a player doesn't feel like their "epic journey" has taken place.
    Except you still have more power when you're down-leveled -- you're just not going to trivialize encounters (such as the shaman in the Maw, or Shadow Behemoth). You have all your skills and traits, and if you're in, say, exotics, you'll have more power than a level X (whatever you're downleveled to) in blues or greens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Combined with the quality of encounter design and you actually find that it's just as limiting if not more. Doing extraordinary things that shouldn't be possible with imposed limits are what drives interesting situations. You're exactly right, except youre expressing it negatively.

    I would argue exactly what you did, except that's what makes the lack of roles in these encounters more limiting. It basically amounts to a gameplay 'whatever'. Also, jack of all trades, master of none comes to mind as to why the potential enjoyment doesn't have such a high ceiling.
    Agree (again :P).

    Personally, I haven't found the support abilities of the classes in GW2 to be substantial enough, certainly not for most individuals to be able to turn the tide of any given encounter as, say, a hybrid in WoW could by off-tanking or off-healing. Abilities being limited by weapon doesn't help the issue either, unless you plan ahead of time going into an encounter to substitute defensive weapon swaps and slot skills since you're unable to change either once you're locked into combat.

    It does seem like -- and this is just based off of observations during dragon DEs -- the intent was everyone working together to support each other, which in this day and age of MMOs is a lot to ask when people are used to LFG speed runs with randomized parties of people only focused on their 'role'. I know when I did AC story my bf thanked me for the Healing Seeds (benefit of being a Sylvari warrior) because it was literally the only healing anyone in the party was getting. So, I can see why Meledelion commented about going in with a dedicated party. :P

    Regardless, I still miss the big number heals. I loved doing drive-by heals in other games or just making sure the heavy hitters never died. Can't really do that in GW2, sadly.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
    It creates a feeling of growth. It's less about intending to go back and slaughter spiders, but the feeling that if you did go back to a starting area, then you aren't at risk. There's a value to outgrowing stuff, because it feels like a progression. If games focus too much on keeping old content "fresh", they lose the forest for the trees.

    Learning your ABC's might be difficult when you're a toddler. When you're an adult it isn't supposed to be hard anymore. It's supposed to be trivial. Completely different things are supposed to challenge you -- and that's fine so long as those new challenges exist (and this is where some games fall short -- they run out of things to challenge players). But if nothing ever becomes trivial (because of downleveling), then there's a risk that a player doesn't feel like their "epic journey" has taken place.
    You can always go oneshot sparkflys and frogs if it makes you feel better? I guess?
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  9. #609
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The negative is poor encounter design.

    GW1 had no role trinity. Encounters were quite open. As that game had a superior set of gameplay rules and more thoughtful design.
    I agree...just don't have enough design experience to think what could rectify that problem other than defined roles, which opens up the design to more refinement and complications through specifics. Not to mention that we've all seen this done superbly in other games like WoW and Rift.

    Obviously the same approach won't work, but I honestly wouldn't mind if they added some new abilities where you could refine your character into more a specific role. I'm not sure that it would impact their overall design at all, since it would still have to be available to a group made up of 5 Elly glass cannons jumping around like grasshoppers, but yeah.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 02:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Personally, I haven't found the support abilities of the classes in GW2 to be substantial enough, certainly not for most individuals to be able to turn the tide of any given encounter
    Agreeagree. I kinda felt that way on my engi, swapping out weapons, tossing heals, slowing mobs, etc...but nothing was really practical and it was all so nuanced that it could've been anyone.
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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Personally, I haven't found the support abilities of the classes in GW2 to be substantial enough, certainly not for most individuals to be able to turn the tide of any given encounter as, say, a hybrid in WoW could by off-tanking or off-healing.
    I only agree partly, I've found that the Mesmers skills feel quite good in some aspects. The feedback-bubble is a great way to shut down ranged enemies and it buys you quite a bit of time. I think it would feel better though, if it lasted MUCH longer and instead the npcs "get it" after a few reflected hits and move out of that aoe. I love the Mass-Invisibility which is a great tool to revive downed players, I don't get it why it lasts only for a short time (as an elite) while the thiefs shadow refuge stealths you much longer. In that case the thief is the superior reviver - so he must really feel great to revive someone with haste (doing it quite fast) while stealthed even longer. Thieves can also keep poison on an enemy quite long, much better than other professions.

    So there absolutely are professions who are superior in doing things. The problem, I think, is: make that actions important would mean that you need that specific profession for a dungoen run, which would go against Anets design-decisions. You should depend only on yourself, not specific other professions. That's also why there is no dedicated healer. You should always be your best healer, otherwise lfg would look like in GW1 where Monks were THE profession which you have to take along... and there weren't nearly as much monks as were needed. Fortunately you had heroes/henchmen - NPCS - to take along, who did an ok-job in healing.

  11. #611
    The main issue is that people don't test builds thoroughly or don't theorycraft for them.

    You know howmany times I have to tell eles that they actually can absorb projectiles? (focus) or that guardians can go full zerker and give the same utility as a useless Altruistic Healing "tank"? or that mesmers have the best boon share skil ingame (signet of inspiration),...

    So many people just don't realise how versatile the game really is if you want it to be. I do agree that switching weapons in a weaponset (or armor) isn't user friendly, but anyone looking to diversify surely doesn't mind having to manually equip s*f on ele instead of d*d or w/e....

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The main issue is that people don't test builds thoroughly or don't theorycraft for them.

    You know howmany times I have to tell eles that they actually can absorb projectiles? (focus) or that guardians can go full zerker and give the same utility as a useless Altruistic Healing "tank"? or that mesmers have the best boon share skil ingame (signet of inspiration),...

    So many people just don't realise how versatile the game really is if you want it to be. I do agree that switching weapons in a weaponset (or armor) isn't user friendly, but anyone looking to diversify surely doesn't mind having to manually equip s*f on ele instead of d*d or w/e....
    This! XD

    I saved many people before with number 4 on GS Ranger. At range is a perma block, at melee its a block and counter-knock-down.
    How many people out there use it to shield someone down while the boss is at range? How many people use the skills as they should? How many people test their builds? XD I honestly think the game isn't very friendly on the trait system as everything can work fine but certain ones if chosen make so much difference. It's the difference between watching me play (not bragging) and my wife. She presses the button as they are available not really on the situation, or thinking much even. She plays abit better than average I would say...but still.

    There might not be a "focus" on support, but you can certainly do it if you want it. And then gain you have those wow moments where you "Saved" the day. I think it's all perspective.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I like the down state mechanic, it makes for some interesting choices. Do I have enough health to finish off that low level mob and rally? How many heals can I throw on myself vs. how much damage to make it? How quickly can I put up a target for my teammates to help me rally rather than waste time to rez me? Did I pick the right target? (amt of health vs. toughness)

    The rally is spectacular when pulled off well. Love that feel of Nth hour comeback.
    It can also be quite infuriating if you have several opponents that you can down repeatedly but never be able to finish cause you're alone, this doesn't go for all classes but for some it's true in certain cases because the downed state is very uneven.

    I'm both ways on it I'd say I like it in pve but not so much in pvp, it should atleast be tweaked somehow I think.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 09:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I was in a lvl 26 Fractal last week with 3 of my buddies (1 on an alt that we were boosting) and a new guy.

    When we zoned into Underground Facility new guy starts cussing up a storm while we laughed. I knew then we were going to have an interesting run with this fella ^.^

    After getting him through the first room (he kept trying to "tank" the adds on top of the person on the panel - we ended up letting him be a paperweight instead) and him spending the bomb gauntlet on the floor, we finally get to the end. We got the Dredge Powersuit.

    So I'm running the platforms and doing the pours since I have all the speed buffs, heals & whatnot, a good eye on when to pour and know how to dodge without falling off. Dingdong doesn't get out of the bombs and goes down. One of my mates tries to rez him and she goes down. Things quickly went south and both my other mates go down. I zap the boss and take a flying leap off the platform and start kiting.

    I'm running my ass off, popping all my cooldowns and my adrenaline was pumping so hard and I'm yelling in Mumble, "I'm kiting, I'm kiting like a fool! Get back here!" And we are all laughing so hard and they finally make it back and I run back up to the platforms and we pick it back up and finish him off.

    New guy is flipping out, "Great recovery! GJ!!!" while I finish having a heart attack.

    Was hilarious.


    Too bad you guys can't appreciate them because honestly, these are the most fun dungeons I've done in years
    How did they run back there while you were kiting the suit, since you can't leave your corpse while a party member is in combat now?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 09:06 AM ----------

    What's up with the damned add pop-ups on this site now?
    When in doubt, mumble...

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Manekk View Post
    It can also be quite infuriating if you have several opponents that you can down repeatedly but never be able to finish cause you're alone, this doesn't go for all classes but for some it's true in certain cases because the downed state is very uneven.

    I'm both ways on it I'd say I like it in pve but not so much in pvp, it should atleast be tweaked somehow I think.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 09:00 AM ----------



    How did they run back there while you were kiting the suit, since you can't leave your corpse while a party member is in combat now?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 09:06 AM ----------

    What's up with the damned add pop-ups on this site now?
    Shes talking about downed state. They didn't die. She kited the boss while they were getting back up I believe.

  15. #615
    Actually certain classes (teleporters or immobilise spammers) to briefly get out of combat making it so ppl can hit the rez button but damaging the boss fast enough so he doesn't heal (a lot).

    It's sort of a "glitch"

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Except you still have more power when you're down-leveled -- you're just not going to trivialize encounters (such as the shaman in the Maw, or Shadow Behemoth). You have all your skills and traits, and if you're in, say, exotics, you'll have more power than a level X (whatever you're downleveled to) in blues or greens
    Absolutely. The power change just isn't enough for some people. Some people want a progression where they completely outgrow older challenges, because for them, being "heroic" isn't about being somewhat better at the things you did when you first started adventuring. It's worth noting that downleveling is being cited as one of the innovations that "every" MMO should incorporate going forward, and the only point I'm making is that it's a feature that turns some people off, so maybe every game shouldn't do it (or at least shouldn't force it). I'm not trying to argue against the feature in GW2, but it's safe to say that there are people who won't play GW2 (or who stopped playing GW2) in part because of how this feature made the game flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    You can always go oneshot sparkflys and frogs if it makes you feel better? I guess?
    I'm not sure why you're still focused on the idea that people who don't like downleveling just want to faceroll specific things for no reason. The people who don't like it don't like how their character feels in the overall scope of the game. Some people want to hit a point where some areas of the game don't feel dangerous anymore, so they feel like they have "arrived" as a character. It's not that they want everything to be easy, nor is it that they just like slaughtering lowbie critters.

    Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that downleveling is bad. Some people seemed to suggest that they couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't love the feature as the future of every MMO, so I'm trying to put it in context.
    Last edited by Lorelei; 2013-04-24 at 01:26 PM. Reason: typos

  17. #617
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
    The people who don't like it don't like how their character feels in the overall scope of the game. Some people want to hit a point where some areas of the game don't feel dangerous anymore, so they feel like they have "arrived" as a character. It's not that they want everything to be easy, nor is it that they just like slaughtering lowbie critters.
    Very good explanation of the distinction. I will add that having areas where you are a heroic conqueror not only makes you feel like you have 'arrived' as you said, but it actually magnifies the perceived challenge of current content.

    If there are areas you can now dominate because of your increased power as a hero, the new areas that are difficult, the new raid content, all of that seems vastly greater than what you can faceroll. When all of the game is almost equally as hard, nothing seems magnificently difficult. It's just all difficult and you feel like a chump sometimes.

    I like the feeling in GW2 just fine, but would not want it forced in any other game. I think it ties into their philosophy of the entire game being end game and overall just fits for their design, but that's because of many other factors than just the existence of downleveling.
    BAD WOLF

  18. #618
    Right. It depends on whether you design your game around content tiers or around all content always being viable. So no, I wouldn't argue downleveling is a good fit for every game, because some games are designed around content having an expiration date. (Technically, GW2 has that type of content, too, but it's implemented as one-time events rather than content that exists in the game and is technically accessible but not posing a challenge)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
    I'm not sure why you're still focused on the idea that people who don't like downleveling just want to faceroll specific things for no reason. The people who don't like it don't like how their character feels in the overall scope of the game. Some people want to hit a point where some areas of the game don't feel dangerous anymore, so they feel like they have "arrived" as a character. It's not that they want everything to be easy, nor is it that they just like slaughtering lowbie critters.
    What I don't understand is why you don't get this feeling -- a level 80 in Queensdale or Wayfarer Foothills WILL steamroll mobs. It won't (generally) be one-shots, but it will be massively easier. You get 14 minor or major traits; you get additional stats on your gear (going from 1->2 stats per item in the 20s and 2->3 stats in the 60s); you'll get access to masterwork, rare, and exotic gear, all as you level up. All this makes you stronger as a downleveled character than a character of the appropriate level would be. If anything, my problem is that for my level 80s the low- and mid-level stuff is often too easy to be entertaining.

    The reason why ArenaNet won't allow you to one-shot mobs is that you can't really combine that with making dynamic events your primary source of open world content. It would be too easy for high-level players to grief low-level players; even so, I often see players in map chat air their frustration about the effect high-level players have on events in Queensdale or Wayfarer Foothills. And from a business perspective, your players being unable to meaningfully replay content once they outlevel it is a waste of resources.
    Last edited by Sylvanie; 2013-04-24 at 08:45 PM.

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    What I don't understand is why you don't get this feeling -- a level 80 in Queensdale or Wayfarer Foothills WILL steamroll mobs. It won't (generally) be one-shots, but it will be massively easier. You get 14 minor or major traits; you get additional stats on your gear (going from 1->2 stats per item in the 20s and 2->3 stats in the 60s); you'll get access to masterwork, rare, and exotic gear, all as you level up. All this makes you stronger as a downleveled character than a character of the appropriate level would be. If anything, my problem is that for my level 80s the low- and mid-level stuff is often too easy to be entertaining.
    Simply put, it's the curve. For some people (and I want to stress that this isn't necessarily my own opinion), the feeling of riding through an older zone and knowing that the stuff in there knows better than to even bother with you is important. For others, seeing high level characters who exude that also is important -- I remember my first time playing an MMO when a high level character rescued me from certain death without breaking a sweat, and it made me see instantly how much more powerful I would be if I kept at the game.

    It can be hard to pin down, because it's all about "feel." I don't play shooters well enough to be able to make meaningful distinctions between say, Battlefield and Call of Duty, but I have friends who swear by one and hate the other because "the weapons don't feel right [in the other one]." Similarly, some people just don't like the way it feels when the numbers change, especially when you get scaled down. Going from hitting for 100 to 50 (arbitrary numbers) can feel weird even if the lower number is harder than non-downscaled typically would hit for. To expand on what Kittyvicious said, it makes it seem sometimes like the lower level creatures are more powerful than the higher level ones because you're hitting them for equal or lesser amounts. Finally, there are some oddities where a high level downscaled character in lower than average gear (or no gear) is actually worse off than a low-level character. That throws people off too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    And from a business perspective, your players being unable to meaningfully replay content once they outlevel it is a waste of resources.
    That's like saying that the first Harry Potter book was a waste of resources if people didn't go back and read it again once the other 6 books came out -- or more to the topic, that tutorial/intro levels in games are a waste of resources because no one replays those. Replayability is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's a waste of resources if you want players to keep replaying content because of your business model and they don't, but having content that hooks them into the world such that they want to go play other content you make is just as valid. It's simple return on investment, from a business perspective.

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