Verdict on Guild Wars 2's innovations

[Valeron]

Just by itself? No I wouldn't dislike a game because of that.

[draykorinee]

Oh we're having this discussion again, wow vs gw2 with people who havent played the game for a loooong time and as such have outdated information. This expansion has seen a continuation of a swing to less turret based gameplay for ranged dps, unfortunately a few classes (booms + sp) are suffering still while the rest of us are enjoying being able to cast when moving. For me its such an improvement on the combat that it needs to be baseline for all classes.
The biggest difference is weapon switching, a system Im still not sold on, the ability to change my core skills by switching weapons sounds logical but it just feels a little dissapointing to me, as does the lack of skills availble and the inability to chose more than a handful. I do really enjoy the freedom to move in GW2 while in combat, hit rating is such an arbitrary discussion seeing as its almost impossible to not be hit capped.

[Valeron]

I played WoW last week, dray, does that count?

[draykorinee]

I played WoW last week, dray, does that count?

Yeah I played GW2 for an hour yesterday, I wouldnt be able to have a decent game v game discussion about the comabt mechanics :P

[Valeron]

Yeah I played GW2 for an hour yesterday, I wouldnt be able to have a decent discussion about the comabt mechanics :P

Doesn't stop people from making judgements about it now does it. Although to be fair, you played GW2 longer than I played wow last week.

[draykorinee]

Doesn't stop people from making judgements about it now does it. Although to be fair, you played GW2 longer than I played wow last week.

Indeed it does not dooze, which is why these discussions go on. I myself have been at fault many a time with posting misinformation due to a lack of knowledge Trying hard not to do so again, the smugness of Karizee correcting me is too much to bear.

[Blackmist]

Dynamic Events - Didn't work as well as I'd hoped. It effectively became a grind-train at higher levels. Many of the events were just "fill the bar to arbitrarily move on". It just didn't feel connected to the world.
No holy trinity - Seemed like a great feature at first, but made all the classes quite samey. Many of the PvE tactics that WoW does were missing because of the lack of it. Sure, waiting for a healer or tank can be tiresome, but it does open up a lot more gameplay.
Dodge system - It's OK, but overused. Every class just does it in the same way. I feel that classes should have different ways to evade damage. Agile classes can dodge, heavy classes can use shields or armour, casters can use wards and teleports. Hybrids could use a combination. Mix it up a little.
Down-levelling - By far one of the better features. I hope WoW implements this at some point. It's a crying shame having all that obsolete content.
Skills defined by Weapons - I quite liked this, although quickly found favourites that seemed more powerful than others. With a bit of power balancing, and just changing the feel of the weapons, it could have been better.
Combo Fields - A good idea, but in reality there was little opportunity to use it.
Downed State - Nice to not just die. Hopefully this will be worked on by future games to make it more fun.
Multi-Guild system - Nice. This would be a good feature for future MMOs to copy. Good to be able to be in different guilds that specialise in different areas of the game.
Skill and Build system - I felt it was OK. It's kind of like WoW's Pandaria talents I suppose. Made me want to explore the world to get more points to spend, although it did mean if I'd already done an event I was far less likely to do it again.
Cosmetic progression - Nice in theory, get your gear once, everything else just for looks. Looked very grindy in reality. Still lots of people trying to get the "best" items by doing the same few events in a massive train of people.

I'll mention this though.

The World - This was really quite well thought out. A combination of combat and exploring. With more focus on the game engine to make it suitable for being a platform game, the "jumping puzzles" would have been a lot more fun. There were a few too many "paths" blocked by invisible walls or platforms that you couldn't actually get on. The movement in air is jarring at best.

[draykorinee]

Dynamic Events - Didn't work as well as I'd hoped. It effectively became a grind-train at higher levels. Many of the events were just "fill the bar to arbitrarily move on". It just didn't feel connected to the world.

Anet: NO longer do you get told to kil 8 bears or pick up 10 plants!

Yeah instead you fill a bar till its done, bad quest design all round, it was meant to be immersive but just turned out the same as every mmo going. The whole but you can kill bears OR pick up plants just doesnt sell it to me either, most other games just clump the same thing in to one area as multiple seperate quests. The only thing that stands out to me is the working together to fill that bar, that is something that other developers including blizz are finally recognising and shared tagging is slowly working its way in.

[Kelimbror]

Anet: NO longer do you get told to kil 8 bears or pick up 10 plants!

Yeah instead you fill a bar till its done, bad quest design all round, it was meant to be immersive but just turned out the same as every mmo going. The whole but you can kill bears OR pick up plants just doesnt sell it to me either, most other games just clump the same thing in to one area as multiple seperate quests. The only thing that stands out to me is the working together to fill that bar, that is something that other developers including blizz are finally recognising and shared tagging is slowly working its way in.

To be fair though, reception of alternate quest delivery is subjective. Psychologically the general playerbase is going to feel that it is different, because it honestly is different. To say it's not is semantically reducing a literal difference by way of expressing only the similarities.

On the one hand, I understand, because if your brain processes the information that way...it's going to be that way. But on the other, it's just not true. I don't think we give enough credit to how the UI interacts with 'quest' completion to the overall effect either. Instead of constantly monitoring a quest log, a counter system, you could just go through an area doing actions as you choose. The game will very visually, audibly, and largely tell you when you can stop...but it doesn't tell you that you have to stop. It's a choice.

Instead of following a grocery list, you could inherently go to areas and kill/gather/affect things and the game pats you on the back when you've accomplished something via attractive popups, visual/audio cues, etc. I can completely agree with you, but I can also take a step back and realize that it's more than we give it credit for because we're interpreting it differently than it is designed. And that is honestly not a fault on the design. Could it be a more convincing illusion? Sure, but we could see through that as our choice as well.

[Fencers]

I know thus why i brought up TERA LOL...Seriously TERA does real time combat SOOOO much better then GW2.

No, Tera does it differently than GW2.

Animation lock is the same mechanical function of cast times.

[Feranor]

Isn't there some sort of mage talent that allows like fireball to be cast on the run in WoW? I am not sure of the name or the skills. Though I recall seeing it once in WOW and both Rift and SWTOR [the two closest mass market games to WoW] have the option for their respective mage archetypes.

Every ranged class in WoW has something like that: Shadow Priests spawn exploding clones while moving, Mages can spam Scorch, Moonkins get a weird buff to their DoTs, Warlocks have Fel Flame, Hunters have a "shoot while moving" Aspect and Shamans can glyph Lightning Bolt to make it castable on the run. Some of those abilities aren't exactly great, though.

However, that is not matter.

The key difference is "some skills and classes can move & attack freely" in traditional MMOs. All classes can move and attack freely in Guild Wars with the majority of skills able to fire on the move- regardless of target, distance and travel freely through the gamespace with actual collision.

That would have been awesome if only AN hadn't messed up the camera and controls. You can't see shit because your camera is always zoomed in and your FoV is so low. In addition to that, strafing is slower than regular forward movement, which makes casting stuff on targets behind you while moving relatively unfeasible (strafe-casting, or jump -> turn -> cast -> turn if you prefer is one of the main reasons why WoW PvP was so much fun; it's one of the few games where I'm not "control-capped").

The projectile skills were also a failure; it was virtually impossible to hit moving targets with, say, Necro Staff Auto Attack. My guild's Guardians rerolled after the first few days of WvW because they just couldn't tag any opponents, as their only functioning spammable ranged attack was a 600 range CAoE.

The comparison between the "Once-every 20-second-Shockwave" of a Prot warrior and that of a GW2 warrior Savage Leaping-Hamstringing-Crushing Blow-Tremoring-shouting OGCD and dropping banners while circle kiting and possibly using improvised weapons without breaking stride or hitting tab target; is not a sensible or fair comparison of two desperate systems of play.

In the old parlance one would call Guild Wars 2 an "arcade game".

So in other games you don't use 5-6 abilities in succession? Playing a Warrior in GW2 felt like playing a buffed Warrior in Vanilla WoW. You charge in and take 50-80% of your opponents' HP (AoE, too) per swing, leaving behind a trail of downed people for the non-Warrior/Ranger/Thief types in your group to finish off.

GW2 does feel very much like a single player action RPG. Sluggish/floaty realistic controls, limited camera, half-assed reduced targeting system and a focus on immersion rather than mechanical playability. This is great for (single player) PvE, but horrible for PvP. Though to be fair it's not nearly as bad as AoC, in that regard.

Popular MMOs such as EQ, WoW or Rift are firmly stat driven RPGs.

So is Guild Wars. In GW1, builds were absolutely everything. In GW2 they're still quite important. The only difference is that the gear grind isn't remotely as terrible as it is in WoW or RIFT.

I know thus why i brought up TERA LOL...Seriously TERA does real time combat SOOOO much better then GW2.

TERA has, by quite a large margin, the most mind-boggingly inane controls I have ever seen in any MMO. It feels like driving a car that has the gearstick on the roof and the clutch pedal on the passenger side.

Rift's contribution system was idiotic. It was calculated based on APS. Your Rogue had a 1s global cooldown. Clerics had a 1.5s global cooldown. It was pretty much impossible for a Cleric to get higher contribution than a Rogue because he just couldn't physically do as many actions per second. And the Clerics who actually healed people who needed healing? Welcome to crap contribution levels. The only way for a Cleric to get decent contribution was to find a low mana buff/heal and just spam the crap out of it. On yourself, on some random person, didn't matter.

A contribution meter is the exact opposite of shared tags. It forces competition.

Well, if there's an inherently stupid game mechanic, such as a contribution meter, I'd say it's an improvement when there's some hilariously retarded way to cheat it. I didn't have any issues on my Cleric either, but that was probably because procs counted as actions.

[Fencers]

So in other games you don't use 5-6 abilities in succession?

Do the majority of those skills travel through the gamespace with collision regardless of target lock?

We are quite clearly speaking about free movement and skills which travel through the gamespace. Using Heroic Strike or Revenge is not useful to this conversation.

So is Guild Wars. In GW1, builds were absolutely everything.

This is true in a certain sense of GW1.

However, a build in GW1 was principally centered around the exact interaction of desperate skills. With the stats being entirely modular.

In GW2 they're still quite important. The only difference is that the gear grind isn't remotely as terrible as it is in WoW or RIFT.

This isn't correct though. In fact the game rewards players for killing mobs above their level significantly. There is even a tooltip for this information.

The disparity of stats in GW2 is majorly de-emphasized and there is no gear wall aside from Fractals.

You do not roll to-hit-armor-class-zero in GW2. There is no metric of such. Where similar metircs are the actual core of stat driven RPGs such as WOW, EQ or Rift. Those game can not function otherwise- it is the entire basis of the gameplay.

There is no Block %, resistance %, hit rating, toughness rating, focus rating, etc in Guild Wars 2. All stats are implicit to the things a player(s) can do already.

[Deleted]

There is a gear wall though. Irregardless of how easy it is to get gear there is a gear wall. If you run into WvWvW or explorables with level 40 gear you're going to get smashed. Is it particular hard to farm level 80 gear? No. Is it necessary? Yes. The idea that there is no gear treadmill driving the game is an illusion. Method beat Lei Shen heroic with an average item level (in their raid) of 520, which is lower than the item level of gear from normal mode Throne of Thunder.

[rhandric]

Except gear in GW2 isn't going to prevent you from completing content, execution is what matters. WoW encounters require certain gear levels (even if, for example, that gear level were only 450 for level 90 content if execution is perfect). GW2 encounters can be completed with an gear level - sure, gear makes encounters go faster and smoother, but is ultimately not mandatory.

[Fencers]

There is a gear wall though. Irregardless of how easy it is to get gear there is a gear wall. If you run into WvWvW or explorables with level 40 gear you're going to get smashed.

I actually did Arah expo in a mish mash of level 40-70 gear. We cleared it in in one go- story -> path 1, in a couple of hours.

My current ranger is wearing MF gear (explorer's). I am too lazy to swap my gear out for dungeons or fractals. I have died less than 40 times total.

[Deleted]

I actually did Arah expo in a mish mash of level 40-70 gear. We cleared it in in one go- story -> path 1, in a couple of hours.

My current ranger is wearing MF gear (explorer's). I am too lazy to swap my gear out for dungeons or fractals. I have died less than 40 times total.

What does it feel like getting carried?

[rhandric]

What does it feel like getting carried?

Again: gear helps, but is not a requirement (unless you're going for speed clears...but that's community, and not game, driven).

[draykorinee]

Again: gear helps, but is not a requirement (unless you're going for speed clears...but that's community, and not game, driven).

While this is true people deliberately gimping themselves to the detriment of others is a blight on the community as far as I'm concerned, it's selfish plain and simple.

[rhandric]

While this is true people deliberately gimping themselves to the detriment of others is a blight on the community as far as I'm concerned, it's selfish plain and simple.

While I agree in principal...if you're doing with friends, WHO CARES?

[Lane]

I can't help but think Tera's combat is a little overrated. Simply because it's one of the better action based systems out there doesn't mean it was perfect. Animation locks weren't like casting times at all. At least you can cancel a cast, in Tera once you start up your 3-4 second ability (this was particularly bad on warrior) you were stuck. No canceling, no dodging out of it, no moving when your enemy conveniently just side steps out of it causing you to have wasted a cooldown and made yourself a sitting duck.

Tera's method of adding "difficulty" was also the same thing GW2 was trying to do with Orr. Let's just give all the mobs stuns and knockdowns so the difficulty comes in managing to not be incapacitated for 3/4 of any given fight. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. I haven't quite figured out yet how I personally would introduce difficulty into an MMO combat system, but essentially making your character unplayable by enemy actions is not one of them. -_-

Hit rating is a stat I hope I never see again, same with balance.