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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Raid Finder's effect on normal raiding mechanics.

    EDIT: I'm spending more time clarifying my argument than I'm able to spend exchanging opposing opinions on the merit of my hypothesis (which is just that, a hypothesis). I'm not saying mechanics nowadays are "easier", because there are different types of difficulty. I'm not saying Blizzard bases raids on LFR. I'm going to try and TL;Dr clarify here as much as possible. But honestly, you should read my points to understand the full of them.

    LFR is something blizzard knows it has to account for at some point when they design fights. If Tempest Keep was being released nowadays, they may radically change the fight because (among other reasons irrelevent to this conversation) in its current form Kaelthas wouldn't be doable even in a washed-down version. Or more specifically, wouldn't be doable on a RELIABLY CONSISTENT basis. Therefore the regular version would pay for those changes, even if they added other 'equally hard' mechanics to the fight. The thinking, creative mechanics would be removed. The on-your-feet planning mechanics wouldn't be the same, because those aren't reducible.


    I was recollecting how alot of normal (and heroic, although to a much lesser extent) mechanics seem 'washed down' as of late. Iconic one or two tank fights with everyone performing their cookie cutter roles for the most part save for timed use of raid cool downs and the occasional major movement obstacle. But nothing 'outside the box' in terms of role fulfillment.

    Its difficult to talk about abstract concepts like 'outside the box' mechanics without being pidgeon-holed into saying I want 'new' mechanics or 'hard' mechanics. I think examples might serve to make my point a little clearer. Executus, Onyxia, 4HM, Kaelthas, Illidari Council, Thaddius, Faction Champions, Heroic Anub, 10m Nefarian, 10m Heroic Conclave. I'm sure there's alot more I'm missing. I guess the best way to describe it is 'major multi-tasking fights' that either have large scale use of cc; dedicated non-tank kiting; or creative use of tank switching and rationing adds; or other combinations thereof. Guilds had to be creative when approaching these fights, at least to a little degree, even if they read strategies and guides telling them a framework of what to do. You needed cooperation and teamwork on another level.

    And you can't simplify these kinds of fights for a raid finder environment without completely destroying the fundamental nature of the fights. Picture Lich King in raid finder. How you going to get defile not spread to the entire platform? Change its spread speed to be so slow that the entire raid stacked on it takes the whole fight to spread it? That's not the nature of defile, that's a completely different mechanic altogether. Picture 10man Nefarian, and I say 10man because those guilds didn't have the option to 3 tank it, and neither would a raid-finder group with only 2 set tanks. How would you handle the adds in p1? How could you possibly just 'simplify' the mechanic? Hope you have a mage and/or hunter who knew how to kite beforehand? Nerf the adds' damage so pitifully low they could be ignored outright? Then that becomes a different fight altogether.

    Minimal use of cc on heroic will of the emperor (even normal will was a cinch to do with absolutely no cc whatsoever) and wind lord, some exotic raid movement on garalon, and from what I've heard and read some unusually in-depth kiting mechanics in heroic sha. But that's in, and even those mechanics either don't exist or can be ignored on normal mode without too much difficulty. Going back to cata in DS and FL seen even less of this except for P4 ragnaros.

    Raid Finder is potentially forcing non-comprisingly strict raid roles into the design mindset for encounters. And I'm not saying this in the usual forum snowball effect 'end of the world' conspiracy theory way. Its subtle, and I very well could be completely off base, but something feels homogenized about a trend in raid mechanics that does seem to be getting more noticeable each tier.

    I'm honestly not the kind of person who just wants things to blame. I honestly like, on paper, the presence of raid finder because it means I won't be as likely to see nerfs to normal/heroic content. I just feel there's less room for creative brainstorming/solutions and more generic concepts of what a tank, healer, and dps are supposed to do in a fight now than there have been before. And LFR's requirement of pre-selected roles could have legitimately influenced that.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2013-02-17 at 04:01 AM. Reason: clarification
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  2. #2
    The fights are designed around LFR first, and then they add one mechanic for normal and and a second mechanics for heroic. It's really brain-dead development at its worst.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by stgeorge78 View Post
    The fights are designed around LFR first, and then they add one mechanic for normal and and a second mechanics for heroic. It's really brain-dead development at its worst.
    This is incorrect.
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  4. #4
    I take it you haven't killed heroic sha.

  5. #5
    Kiting adds would require a measure of skill, i'm pretty sure blizz banned that some time ago

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  6. #6
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stgeorge78 View Post
    The fights are designed around LFR first, and then they add one mechanic for normal and and a second mechanics for heroic. It's really brain-dead development at its worst.
    Did you just make that up? Because the blue post a few days ago said that they make the fights on normal then tone it down for lfr.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by stgeorge78 View Post
    The fights are designed around LFR first, and then they add one mechanic for normal and and a second mechanics for heroic. It's really brain-dead development at its worst.
    It would be more logical to design normal or heroic raids first then remove complicated or 1 shot mechanics for LFR and scale down health and damage. I doubt LFR has any affect on the mechanics of the other raid difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Did you just make that up? Because the blue post a few days ago said that they make the fights on normal then tone it down for lfr.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    In fact here is a link to what i said before.

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...of-storms-lfr/

    In general, we start out with just an across-the-board reduction to health and damage compared to Normal mode, and then rely on feedback
    Don't make stuff up in the future.
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  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    I doubt LFR has any affect on the mechanics of the other raid difficulties.
    I'm not saying it has direct effects. My argument is that the knowledge that they have to plan for it at all influences their design approach for normal (and by default affects heroic too). They assume homogenized raid roles rather than the more active role-multi-tasking that we have seen in the past.
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  10. #10
    Pit Lord SL1200's Avatar
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    No i don't agree with you at all, mechanics seem to be getting more complicated not less. Of course it's subjective but I don't think the many of the Wrath raid bosses had mechanics as difficult as some of those that are in Mop. Of course that could be because my raid group (during Wrath) was better than the one I play with now. Looks to me like you just want to blame something on the LFR.
    Last edited by SL1200; 2013-02-16 at 05:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinachsandwich View Post
    No i don't agree with you at all, mechanics seem to be getting more complicated not less. Of course it's subjective but I don't think the many of the Wrath raid bosses had mechanics as difficult as some of those that are in Mop. Of course that could be because my raid group ( during Wrath) was better than the one I play with now. Looks to me like you just want to blame something on the LFR.
    That's the thing, I honestly am not trying to look for evil in LFR. I like its presence meaning I'm less likely to see nerfs to normal/heroic fights. I've just noticed a trend in normal/heroic fights that assume a linear concept of class roles that doesn't look to show any sign of changing any time soon.
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  12. #12
    I'm not really certain I agree. We've only had LFR for 2 tiers, and one of those tiers only had 6 bosses. I'm not sure the sample size is large enough. You can levy the same complaints at Firelands, and that was a non-LFR tier.

    Plus, there was a Council fight this tier (Protectors of the Endless).

    One thing that you are correct about is that they are definitely designing fights now for 2 tanks, and before fights would alternate between two or three. But I'm not so sure that this is LFR-specific so much as getting a consistent number of tanks for the raids.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    One thing that you are correct about is that they are definitely designing fights now for 2 tanks, and before fights would alternate between two or three. But I'm not so sure that this is LFR-specific so much as getting a consistent number of tanks for the raids.
    Try doing Stoneguard 25 with 2 tanks. Have fun.

  14. #14
    The concern is that LFR means no more original/creative fights like Rhyo, Alys, Mimiron, Dreamwalker etc...but on the other hand Elegon proves that they can do a more unusual fight and still manage to create a working LFR version. (shame about hc in this case though)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    I'm not saying it has direct effects. My argument is that the knowledge that they have to plan for it at all influences their design approach for normal (and by default affects heroic too). They assume homogenized raid roles rather than the more active role-multi-tasking that we have seen in the past.
    Not at all. The don't even consider LFR in terms of design. The set out to make good encounters then nerf them down afterwards. Mechanics that would require a lot of communication and coordination are removed(minus Garalon), or nerfed to the point where it doesn't matter if you ignore the mechanic at all, Wind Lords Whirling Blade for example. It can kill you if you get hit twice before adds are killed and 1 shot you once they are down in normal/heroic. You have to move in normal/heroic but in LFR you can just stand and get hit for trivial damage.

    Blizzard even layed out how they design raid encounters with normals first approach. LFR has no influence on how raids are designed. Raids are designed like normal then they figure out how to make it work for LFR. I mean, there has been more mechanics and more to all the entry level MoP encounter than in most of all the other raids to date. If LFR had any influence on the encounters then they would all be standing still tank and spanks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    I'm not really certain I agree. We've only had LFR for 2 tiers, and one of those tiers only had 6 bosses. I'm not sure the sample size is large enough. You can levy the same complaints at Firelands, and that was a non-LFR tier.

    Plus, there was a Council fight this tier (Protectors of the Endless).

    One thing that you are correct about is that they are definitely designing fights now for 2 tanks, and before fights would alternate between two or three. But I'm not so sure that this is LFR-specific so much as getting a consistent number of tanks for the raids.
    There are plenty of 1 tank fights in T15, 4th boss in MV, 1st, 3rd, and 4th bosses in HoF. All can be single tanked. Every raid has had fights that require a varying amount of tanks. I honestly wish they just kept it at 2 so I wouldn't have to work on two sets of gear all the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Staticus View Post
    The concern is that LFR means no more original/creative fights like Rhyo, Alys, Mimiron, Dreamwalker etc...but on the other hand Elegon proves that they can do a more unusual fight and still manage to create a working LFR version. (shame about hc in this case though)
    Garalon is similar to Rhyolith, and the ToT fights look very nice.

  16. #16
    raid finder has 0 effect on raiding mechanics, because would-be troublesome raid finder mechanics can just be removed. spine of deathwing is a classic example of that: the fight is almost irrecognizable on the raid finder version.

  17. #17
    They can just tune LFR so you can fail on mechanics like that, so the existence of LFR doesn't need to impact raid design for normal and heroic modes. A lot of wipe mechanics turn to "healers have to heal a little" in the current LFRs. Designing the same fights for both 10 and 25-man probably limits them a lot more than LFR.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    And you can't simplify these kinds of fights for a raid finder environment without completely destroying the fundamental nature of the fights. Picture Lich King in raid finder. How you going to get defile not spread to the entire platform? Change its spread speed to be so slow that the entire raid stacked on it takes the whole fight to spread it? That's not the nature of defile, that's a completely different mechanic altogether. Picture 10man Nefarian, and I say 10man because those guilds didn't have the option to 3 tank it, and neither would a raid-finder group with only 2 set tanks. How would you handle the adds in p1? How could you possibly just 'simplify' the mechanic? Hope you have a mage and/or hunter who knew how to kite beforehand? Nerf the adds' damage so pitifully low they could be ignored outright? Then that becomes a different fight altogether.
    Blizzard has shown that they have no qualms about outright removing problematic mechanics. So Defile would either not spread at all or simply not happen in LFR. Nefarians adds would probably run around tickling people for minor damage.

    Something becoming an entirely different fight isn't a problem. In LFR, Stoneguard often is just piled up on a spot and bombed to oblivion, since you can just heal through the explosions there. It's also just 3 qilen, like in 10 man, instead of the 4 you get in 25 normal and heroic.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    One thing that you are correct about is that they are definitely designing fights now for 2 tanks, and before fights would alternate between two or three. But I'm not so sure that this is LFR-specific so much as getting a consistent number of tanks for the raids.
    That may be more of a concession to 10-man raids than to LFR, though for both 10-man and LFR Blizz can just nerf the "need three tanks"-mechanic to work with two tanks instead...

  20. #20
    You know I would say that mechanics and normal modes are harder now compared to before, because now with LFR they can make normals actually challenging because LFR is there so that everyone can see things. Then you have heroics where things can be really hard and the top enders can beat em.
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