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  1. #21
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    One thing that you are correct about is that they are definitely designing fights now for 2 tanks, and before fights would alternate between two or three. But I'm not so sure that this is LFR-specific so much as getting a consistent number of tanks for the raids.
    Well, there's definitely good reason for that. Blizzard has been trying to normalize raid role compositions so that people don't have to keep switching specs between fights. It's not fun for the person who has to sit or play a spec he doesn't like on fights that don't require him in his primary role.

    And yeah, it's definitely not LFR-specific. They've been going down this path since at least the beginning of Wrath.

  2. #22
    With 16 bosses, I doubt they want 16 heroic brick walls. They do want people to experience these bosses, after all.

  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    I tried to be clear that I wasn't talking about 'hard' mechanics as much as I tried to be specific to the 'type' of mechanics, hard or not.

    The constant CC during Kaelthas, the adds that had to be kited without a tank during Nef, the kill order during the Illidari Council, the outright massive amount of whelps during Onyxia that had to be handled, the pvp-style think-on-your-feet gameplay of faction champions. These kinds of fights wouldn't be reducible for raid finder. You'd have to wipe the slate clean and build from scratch because of the learning-and-evolving gameplay they invoked. You needed communication, even if only on an elementary level (if theoretically reduced in numbers), that would be impossible for a raid finder group to be able to reliably pull off.

    Thinking mechanics, rather than just 'doing' mechanics, are important.

    You won't see fights like that now. Even on windlord, arguably the most 'sensory overload' fight of this tier (even if its very far away from being anything close to the hardest fight. notice the distinction?), its all micro-managed and wrapped into a neat little package so you don't have to be creative and think too much about "how" you're going to execute it. CC the exact amount required to not trigger the cc release, don't stand in fire, dps boss when he gets his debuff after a set of adds is killed, rinse and repeat. You don't have to weigh pros and cons of differing approaches, because they designed only one approach in mind. Sure you can put a cute little bow on it and exclaim some minor difference you've found from the cookie cutter solution, but that's insignificant.

    They reduced it to this level, possibly (believe it or not I'm taking my own hypothesis with a grain of salt, just acknowledging the possibility. Not trying to grasp at straws for my tinfoil hat) so that they can make it feasible to reduce to LFR levels.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2013-02-17 at 03:31 AM.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  4. #24
    People have been saying this since the creation of LFR. If you think it doesn't have any effect on designing encounters, then (sorry) but you simply are too naive.

    I will keep it short: most fights LFR has 0 effect on. However, before LFR we had fights like Conclave, Nefarian, Thorim, Yogg, Lich King, Atramedes, Beth'tilac, Baleroc, etc. These fights REQUIRED either group coordination (group 1 go left, group 2 go right, group 3 go mid) or required a few select individuals to step up and do a major part of the fight (Atramedes gongs, Baleroc soaking, etc).

    For the most part, we haven't seen these fights AT ALL since LFR was introduced. Instead, we see the game dumbed down to the point of Sha of Fear where the GAME selects the people for the groups... ever wonder why? Cause of LFR.

    I know this might not seem like a big deal, and for the most part raid encounters haven't changed a ton, but I don't see how you can say LFR hasn't had an effect on the development of new bosses. Just imagine doing Nefarian LFR.... is there just not going to be a phase 2? Conclave auto-assigns people to the platforms...? Thorim doesn't require people to go around the boss..? No upstairs in Beth'tilac? No crystal soaking for Baleroc...? Not to mention fights like Sinestra would never make it in a LFR world.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    raid finder has 0 effect on raiding mechanics, because would-be troublesome raid finder mechanics can just be removed. spine of deathwing is a classic example of that: the fight is almost irrecognizable on the raid finder version.
    Exactly. There is no way they start with LFR and build up from there. They obviously do LFR as the last step.. Proof? look at the testing being done for 5.2 Look at DS

    I think you are confusing two different things. They are obviously going more towards having 2 main tanks for every boss ( and an occassional 3rd on rare occassions).. but I think that actually has more to do with 10-25 man stuff. If they designed a large amount of boss fights with 3 tanks needed, it would screw up 10 man guilds a bit. 2 tanks fights are just more potable to 25, 10 and LFR.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Video Games's Avatar
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    They've been doing it since wrath. Lk was such a mechanically underwhelming fight even on heroic. Everybody going in the sword was cool but that's it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    People have been saying this since the creation of LFR. If you think it doesn't have any effect on designing encounters, then (sorry) but you simply are too naive.

    I will keep it short: most fights LFR has 0 effect on. However, before LFR we had fights like Conclave, Nefarian, Thorim, Yogg, Lich King, Atramedes, Beth'tilac, Baleroc, etc. These fights REQUIRED either group coordination (group 1 go left, group 2 go right, group 3 go mid) or required a few select individuals to step up and do a major part of the fight (Atramedes gongs, Baleroc soaking, etc).

    For the most part, we haven't seen these fights AT ALL since LFR was introduced. Instead, we see the game dumbed down to the point of Sha of Fear where the GAME selects the people for the groups... ever wonder why? Cause of LFR.

    I know this might not seem like a big deal, and for the most part raid encounters haven't changed a ton, but I don't see how you can say LFR hasn't had an effect on the development of new bosses. Just imagine doing Nefarian LFR.... is there just not going to be a phase 2? Conclave auto-assigns people to the platforms...? Thorim doesn't require people to go around the boss..? No upstairs in Beth'tilac? No crystal soaking for Baleroc...? Not to mention fights like Sinestra would never make it in a LFR world.
    You don´t think kiting in Galaron, or spear-ccing qualifies?

    If DS could be dumbed-down for LFR, any of those encounters you mentioned could be dumbed down.

    I also disagree regarding Sha ´selecting´ making it easier. What is easier, before the fight saying ´ok, these 6 people go ´.. or having 6 randomly chosen and then having to adapt. I know as a healer, I would much rather be in ´my group´ before the fight began.
    Last edited by Azrile; 2013-02-17 at 03:52 AM.

  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Exactly. There is no way they start with LFR and build up from there. They obviously do LFR as the last step.. Proof? look at the testing being done for 5.2 Look at DS

    I think you are confusing two different things. They are obviously going more towards having 2 main tanks for every boss ( and an occassional 3rd on rare occassions).. but I think that actually has more to do with 10-25 man stuff. If they designed a large amount of boss fights with 3 tanks needed, it would screw up 10 man guilds a bit. 2 tanks fights are just more potable to 25, 10 and LFR.
    no one is saying they start with LFR. at all.

    or even implying it.

    But the acknowledgement that its there. that they will have to plan for it. that it does exist.

    COULD.

    maybe.

    Possibly.

    Influence their decision to homogenize the normal/heroic fight JUST ENOUGH so that its POSSIBLE to even make a raid finder version for.

    No more getting creative with class mechanics. No more thinking outside the box. No more group coordination and strategizing. Just logs and "getting it right", because now the "it" has an objective single right answer that only varies aesthetically.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  9. #29
    So this argument is premised on two things that aren't true: that raid encounters are watered down now (they aren't), and that encounters are designed around LFR (they aren't). Being that both of those things are not the case, I guess this discussion is rather pointless?

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Pandorox's Avatar
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    What about LFR Garalon? Someone has to kite him & if you don't have someone with prior experience then someone has to opt up to learn

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    no one is saying they start with LFR. at all.

    or even implying it.

    But the acknowledgement that its there. that they will have to plan for it. that it does exist.

    COULD.

    maybe.

    Possibly.

    Influence their decision to homogenize the normal/heroic fight JUST ENOUGH so that its POSSIBLE to even make a raid finder version for.

    No more getting creative with class mechanics. No more thinking outside the box. No more group coordination and strategizing. Just logs and "getting it right", because now the "it" has an objective single right answer that only varies aesthetically.
    And the fact that it might rain tomorrow could. maybe. possibly. influence me to eat spaghetti tonight. But it doesn't.

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    So this argument is premised on two things that aren't true: that raid encounters are watered down now (they aren't), and that encounters are designed around LFR (they aren't). Being that both of those things are not the case, I guess this discussion is rather pointless?
    But my argument is based on neither of those things.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    But my argument is based on neither of those things.
    WHAT? What are you even talking about? You clearly said BOTH things in the OP. If encounters aren't designed around LFR, and encounters aren't watered down, then I guess there's no problem, is there?

  14. #34
    Encounters are only changed or watered-down for LFR. You will notice a lot of things are either missing or just don't give the kick that they do on normal and heroic. I was under the impression that LFR was supposed to be a stepping stone into normal mode raiding and also a way to pick up some gear to help the lower guilds progress through content more efficiently.

    Now, I don't necessarily like LFR because of how forgiving it is. I have noticed it teaches people that its okay to mess up because nothing bad happens. What is the point of learning if there are no consequences for standing in everything? I know when I do LFR, I literally just tunnel. I know there isn't anything that is going to kill me and I want to kill the bosses as fast as possible... so I just DPS and ignore everything. If I did that when clearing heroic content, I would be gkicked on the spot. Heck, I'd be gkicked from a normal mode guild.

    My point is that its not the stepping stone that Blizzard released it saying... its more of a fall back if you want gear- and this game revolves around gear. That is why we see so many complaints about, "omg X didn't drop for me for the Y time. This is stupid!"

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    I'm not saying it has direct effects. My argument is that the knowledge that they have to plan for it at all influences their design approach for normal (and by default affects heroic too). They assume homogenized raid roles rather than the more active role-multi-tasking that we have seen in the past.
    The way I understand it, LFR really only requires 2-3 mechanics that are not overly complicated, overpowered, or need too much personal responsibility. If you mean that they cant have 1 signature mechanic like driving Rhyolith you can just look at Garalon. Or more likely the RF version of Rhyolith could be completed by just spinning him in place while killing adds. There really isnt anything theyve done so far that you couldnt tone down for LFR. If they really wanted to or had to, the LFR boss could have totally different abilities. I think they basically only look at the encounter in general terms, flesh out the abilities for normal, then think of a few to add or change for heroic and the opposite for LFR. Theyve also stated that they believe LFR groups have probably at least a few people that know what to do for the personal responsibility roles and that while LFR groups have less coordination than a guild raid, they still have some.

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    WHAT? What are you even talking about? You clearly said BOTH things in the OP. If encounters aren't designed around LFR, and encounters aren't watered down, then I guess there's no problem, is there?
    Designed with LFR in mind and designed around LFR are completely different ideas.

    Watered down is vague. I'd agree that fights nowadays still present a challenge. On that basis they are not watered down, and my argument has nothing to do with difficulty. But they provide a challenge in a different way. The mentally-stimulating "puzzle" that raiding used to be did get watered down, and your argument that this tier isn't watered down means (to me) that you weren't addressing this context of your statement. The "how" of the encounter solution is already solved, everyone knows how to beat every fight. Its simply a matter of following other's footsteps, which can be a challenge, but isn't as mentally stimulating.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2013-02-17 at 04:09 AM.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  17. #37
    What faction champions did you kill?
    - Cause the ones I killed, were very easy. Blizzard failed miserably on Faction champions.
    And some of the other fights you mention was a joke too compared to some of the fights we see today.


    I'm in a 10man guild, and Must say the fights are alot harder today imo.
    Sure there isnt a huge amount of mechanics on all of them. But really, theres alot more to take into account.
    Take tanks for example.. Kiting, tauting of eachother, managing active mitigation, and still do competetive dps.
    Dps has to dispel, interrupt, cc, kite, switch targets, and do insane dps.
    Healers, they really have to be focused. Some fights have heavy AoE damage, others have serious spike damage. managing raid CDs.
    All of this plus everybody has to worry about overall mechanics.

    You dont strike me as a guy who's that far in Heroic content. No offense.


    Plus some of the things we're seeing in 5.2 is pretty cool too..

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    But my argument is based on neither of those things.
    Your argument is based on something that exists only in your mind. Blizzard has shown that they are perfectly willing and able to remove or trivialize mechanics as necessary to make LFR work without it impacting normal and heroic. Yes, they could limit their design to make it easier. But guess what? They aren't.

    There's a reason you can ignore half the mechanics in LFR and still win.

  19. #39
    I argue that 10 man does this more than LFR does. Mechanics are watered down because they can't assume anything about comps, it's EASY to make a mechanic that is just trivial on LFR. For instance, make the weapons not relevent on LFR Kael'thas. Boom, fight's the same. 10 man version of Kael'thas? Becomes a lot more watered down, not enough bodies to fulfill the roles necessary. Same thing with Vashj, you could easily turn it into an LFR fight, but a 10 man version would have to actually be legitimately different.

    This was fine when 10 man was sold as the easier product, a role LFR fills now, and they could just make the mechanics simpler for 10, but when they purport to peddle balance between the sizes it actually hobbles raid design. My point isn't necessarily that 10 man is bad or whatever else, but different sizes have more effect on mechanic diversity than different difficulties do - You can ALWAYS dumb a mechanic down, scaling is tougher.

  20. #40
    Mechanics nowadays are way more elaborated and complicated tham ever realy ppl, whats the deal with all this complaints about how the game was harder on the past, it wasnt, raiding wit 39 other ppl was what made it dificult mechanics were dumb simple, BC mechanics werent as elaborated as the ones we see today either (save for Kael).

    How exactly is heroic Vizier not outside the box ? Amber shaper construct stuf ? Freaking tsulong having a phase were you deal damage healling and one were you actualy hit him (essentialy getting the idea they used on Valithria and making it even more elaborated) ? Even Stone Guards tank swap mechanics are pretty darn outside the box.

    And have you even seen the Throne of Thunder bosses ? You want more complexity tham Durumu realy ? Didi you read the journal on Lei Shen heroic, I can feel the pain from jsut reading that.

    And please dont use Kael as example for anythign that fight is just way way way too overelaborated, blizz know that and they never even atempted somethign close to that craziness, even heroic LK wich I consider to be the hardest boss ever wasnt as overly elaborated as Kael, hes realy overkilling it, explainign that figth to anyone takes liek 2 hours.

    To the guy above me 10 mans never had dumbed down mechanics in relation to 25s even on Wrath, what amde 10 mans easier was the tuning, if on a 25 man you needed like 10k dps per dpser on a 10 youd need 8, healing was also easier tanks were less likely to die and such. And also ppl would gear on 25s and do 10 mans wich completly trivialised the thing. Mechanics were always the exact same (and because of this a bunch of 25 guilds used to train mechanics for 25s on multiples 10 on thse bosses with limited atempts) . And plz dont compare 10 mans of wrath with LFR theres a world of diference...
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-02-17 at 06:01 AM.

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