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  1. #61
    No. its forbidden because it has been linked about 1000 times past year on every single thread about "decline of wow" or "hard content must have" - not because it has differing opinion to mods or most of the community.
    That doesn't make sense, who cares if it has been link 1000 times in the past. Might as well close this thread cause subjects like this have been made 1000 times in the past.

  2. #62
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyuZ View Post
    Yes the 40 man aspect was more of an annoyance, but watch the video I linked and go about passed half way when he states the dates of wold firsts for bosses in BC. It will blow. your. mind. compared to todays firsts, I miss it.

    They took so long because there was game breaking bugs. Not because they were harder.

  3. #63
    The Patient
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    I always like the feeling of acomplishment, there is non if you can just zerg most of the content out there.

    Of course, with LFR/Normal/Heroic I feel raiding is on a good course. But why anyone would enjoy LFR outside of getting gear is beyond me..

  4. #64
    I think some of you are hearing me out wrong, let me explain ,

    I'm not asking for omg wtf HC raid difficult everywhere, I'm just asking for a tuning up of things slightly, or to the point where getting geared and "accepted" in terms of raid preparedness is satisfying, you have accomplished something. As it currently is, you can sail through heroics with ease, and get geared with ease. Not only that, but you can literally AFK /follow in LFR. Now let me get to LFR and why it is detrimental.

    No one forces you to raid. When I think of the term raid, I think of something legendary, a combined team effort on a large scale, something difficult.. The thing about this game is that it DID satisfy all players, back when things were "challenging", casuals would do heroics and dabble with raids via PUGs, downing the occasional normal boss. A more serious -> hardcore player would be doing normal on farm, and downing a few Heroic bosses via progression.

    The beginning of cata, once I finally got my last 346 heroic piece, I felt accomplished. Entering BWD was pretty cool for the first time, having Nefarian breathe down your neck and taunt you as you kill the bosses. I think the difficulty of Cata's dungeons and raids was a good medium. While you could get through the bosses, the final bosses of the dungeons DID pose a challenge and needed more effort. I think some of the world firsts would have been a lot later if not for the feral druid bleed bug on Nefarian. But anyways what I'm trying to say; LFR removes this "raider" type of player. Cause now, essentially everyone is a raider, being AFK while the team downs a boss that can't tie it's own shoes. I think Blizz isn't only homogenizing the classes, but also all types of players, aside from Heroic raiders.

    If people wanted to see the content, they had to DO the heroic dungeons, learn to be a good team mate with a big group, and go into a dungeon and do attempts. No one was stopping you from forming a group and attempting raids. But society as a whole is getting used to being babied, and having instant gratification, and demanding things cause "they pay the monthly subscription.". I think this mindset of the majority really did affect the game in a negative way, but once again, I'm just a single shmuck in a barrell of millions, just voicing my opinion.


    Edit 1 - Some are attacking this argument with the "What's the point of making content if only 1% see it." Well, what is the point of pouring time and resources into a content patch, only for all of it to be unveiled and conquered within a week? Why? I find that quite redundant and not the greatest "effort put in to make/effort put in to beat" ratio.
    Last edited by AyuZ; 2013-02-17 at 02:09 AM.

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Harder content that not everyone has the skill in order to reach let alone defeat is a good thing and should serve as an incentive to players who are (currently) incapable (of completing content) to improve.
    Last edited by judgementofantonidas; 2013-02-17 at 04:05 AM. Reason: better syntax





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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theendgamelv3 View Post
    That doesn't make sense, who cares if it has been link 1000 times in the past. Might as well close this thread cause subjects like this have been made 1000 times in the past.
    Threads are not always linking to video. Threads might be beating dead horse, but its not for personal gain or someone elses benefit solely. Promoting youtube videos outside non-forcing signature or thread designated to them is against rules. Simple as that.
    If there was 1000 threads about "wow look at this cool video called harlem shake XD!" then that would be banned too and eventually autoblocked.
    "when women wear makeup they’re basically lying to us"
    Well, I don’t see why women are being blamed if man is stupid enough to really think they have red and gold eyelids.

  7. #67
    Harder content is not better in the vast majority of cases based off of such a wide and diverse player-base we have in WoW today but having it there is fine.

    I think MoP has the best PvE start to any expansion I've seen so far, if you really dissect the tier then you begin to realise how excellent PvE is right now. My three main points are:
    - It's fine to have a small amount of content that only a small minority will see but an entire raid tier dedicated to it is too dangerous in todays metagame. A heroic only boss for example is an excellent way.
    - Various difficulties are good. A lot of people hate LFR and I do too in some way but it's one of the best additions ever to raiding. LFR is casual, is not required for heroic raiders past the first couple of weeks and is appealing to the masses. Normal for average raiders and heroic for people looking for extra challenge is good for now.
    - Progression should be meaningful and it is in MoP. No longer can you grind up JP and catch up like in wrath or cata. Considerable effort, time and dedication is now rewarded appropriately.

    The difficulties of LFR/normal/heroic are perfectly tuned in most cases although a bit easier/lenient on 25man. The only complaint of T14 I have is that there are too many scenarios where in 10man, 2 healers is required and 3 is too risky on reaching enrage timers...for most guilds.
    Last edited by RaZDaZ; 2013-02-17 at 02:26 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    They took so long because there was game breaking bugs. Not because they were harder.
    For some of them. Raids in vanilla and TBC were also much more gear dependent than they are now. The biggest factor that makes current raid content go down so fast for the top guild today is the fact that they have already done all the fights on the PTR and all the information we know before the raid even comes out. Fights like H LK and others that were not on the PTR took longer to defeat because everyone has to learn how to do the fight live. If Blizzard could test their encounters themselves so that the patch content would be truly new to the players when it is released you would see it taking a longer time for the bosses to go down. Starting heroic raids a week after normal also gives heroic guilds a practice period.

  9. #69
    if they did a solo join bracket with rating and cp as reward for pvp and the other single join bg honor points only and then added pug lfr options for normal/heroic mode i would be in heaven but NO not gonna happen in wow or any other mmo sigh...

  10. #70
    Harder content definitively does make a better game. But so does accessibility. Easy to learn, hard to master, is the mantra for all great games out there. Easy to LFR, hard to Heroic. Bam. Not rocket science. This tier was a very nice difficulty. T11 would have been great if it had included LFR.

    5-mans are not supposed to be hard. The ones in BC really weren't to crazy difficult unless you JUST started at max level. If you wan't challenging 5 mans, try challenge modes. I know a lot of you don't like that answer, but that's the answer. The only reason you don't like it is because Blizzard did it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  11. #71
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essem View Post
    Back in Vanilla and TBC, a new player would see someone that was raiding and think "oh man! i want to be like that guy!" The drive and motivation was actually there for new players. They had to join a raiding guild and the raiding scene blossomed.

    Nowadays, how many thinks the same thing, probably some but to a much lesser degree. Those who does and wants to raid get up to max lvl and finds out about LFR and skips the whole "has to join a raiding guild part". So as a result raiding is slowly choking to death.
    Obviously that didn't really work if back then, less than 5% of the playerbase raided.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Obviously that didn't really work if back then, less than 5% of the playerbase raided.
    Yup. There's a reason there are so many more ex-WoW players than there are WoW players, and it's not because some hardcore majority got ticked off and quit.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #73
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enemyz View Post
    If you call doing LFR seeing content it's so watered down people afk in it. What happened to doing pugs? You never had to join a guild to do them and it's a lot more of a challenge then LFR.
    The demand of pugs is basically way too high for the average player to ever get in, usually. Unless you manage to get into one right when content is brand new, or something, you essentially aren't going to get into a pug unless you're already a raider, a liar, or extremely lucky.

    There's a reason that very few people ever even step foot into a normal raid when it's current, and it's not all about skill.

  14. #74
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Seeing other players in gear that I would never be able to obtain without improving my play style and joining an organized team is what put me where I am now. I lead an average regs raiding guild which is still trying to catch up to the players that CAN be in the 5%. Regardless of the difficulty there will always be those that can and those that cannot. I prefer that the space between those two categories remain larger than smaller.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by AyuZ View Post
    Yes the 40 man aspect was more of an annoyance, but watch the video I linked and go about passed half way when he states the dates of wold firsts for bosses in BC. It will blow. your. mind. compared to todays firsts, I miss it.
    I've watched that video before, when it was FIRST mentioned, and the 'first kill' dates that you and that damned video mention was not because of boss difficulty, but a combination of bad itemization, luck, and people back then were not nearly as devoted into learning WoW and its classes' mechanics as they are today. I also am even willing to say that, if we got the strong 'world first' guilds of today, and put them in a BC server, with BC classes and mechanics, they'd down those bosses just as fast as they kill today's bosses.

    WHY do you think Blizzard makes raid bosses with more and more complicated strategies? Because, gear notwithstanding, the top players evolved and started learning techniques faster. That video is misinformation at its best. I really wish people would stop confusing 'nostalgic stuff' with 'better stuff'. ><

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    The demand of pugs is basically way too high for the average player to ever get in, usually. Unless you manage to get into one right when content is brand new, or something, you essentially aren't going to get into a pug unless you're already a raider, a liar, or extremely lucky.

    There's a reason that very few people ever even step foot into a normal raid when it's current, and it's not all about skill.
    agreed. often it is purely about being stubborn and feeling that you will be able to perform as well as an individual, which in many cases is true, and progress as well as an organized group which is rarely true.

    Bottom line with players that choose to be perma pugs is that they are being stubborn. The game is not built around solo play.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  17. #77
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyuZ View Post
    I think some of you are hearing me out wrong, let me explain ,

    I'm not asking for omg wtf HC raid difficult everywhere, I'm just asking for a tuning up of things slightly, or to the point where getting geared and "accepted" in terms of raid preparedness is satisfying, you have accomplished something. As it currently is, you can sail through heroics with ease, and get geared with ease. Not only that, but you can literally AFK /follow in LFR. Now let me get to LFR and why it is detrimental.

    No one forces you to raid. When I think of the term raid, I think of something legendary, a combined team effort on a large scale, something difficult.. The thing about this game is that it DID satisfy all players, back when things were "challenging", casuals would do heroics and dabble with raids via PUGs, downing the occasional normal boss. A more serious -> hardcore player would be doing normal on farm, and downing a few Heroic bosses via progression.

    The beginning of cata, once I finally got my last 346 heroic piece, I felt accomplished. Entering BWD was pretty cool for the first time, having Nefarian breathe down your neck and taunt you as you kill the bosses. I think the difficulty of Cata's dungeons and raids was a good medium. While you could get through the bosses, the final bosses of the dungeons DID pose a challenge and needed more effort. I think some of the world firsts would have been a lot later if not for the feral druid bleed bug on Nefarian. But anyways what I'm trying to say; LFR removes this "raider" type of player. Cause now, essentially everyone is a raider, being AFK while the team downs a boss that can't tie it's own shoes. I think Blizz isn't only homogenizing the classes, but also all types of players, aside from Heroic raiders.

    If people wanted to see the content, they had to DO the heroic dungeons, learn to be a good team mate with a big group, and go into a dungeon and do attempts. No one was stopping you from forming a group and attempting raids. But society as a whole is getting used to being babied, and having instant gratification, and demanding things cause "they pay the monthly subscription.". I think this mindset of the majority really did affect the game in a negative way, but once again, I'm just a single shmuck in a barrell of millions, just voicing my opinion.


    Edit 1 - Some are attacking this argument with the "What's the point of making content if only 1% see it." Well, what is the point of pouring time and resources into a content patch, only for all of it to be unveiled and conquered within a week? Why? I find that quite redundant and not the greatest "effort put in to make/effort put in to beat" ratio.
    If you don't make content that a lot of people will see, it's harder and harder to justify spending most of your resources on making said content. Which is why LFR had to exist. Otherwise you'd see far less raiding content, or very, very poorly made raiding content. You can't spend a lot of money pleasing the a minority. It makes zero financial sense. What's really baffling is that Blizzard spent 7 years doing it.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by AyuZ View Post
    Yes the 40 man aspect was more of an annoyance, but watch the video I linked and go about passed half way when he states the dates of wold firsts for bosses in BC. It will blow. your. mind. compared to todays firsts, I miss it.
    Why do you miss it?

    That's really something you gotta consider, too - ever since people got so much experience. That's another reason why many guilds won't take on inexperienced people. The more fights you've done the more you'll be able to apply what you've learned back then in newer fights, extrapolate mechanic x to mechanic y. And people have just become better players, too. The average skill of a player in vanilla and even tbc, compared to now... It was horrible. Only a handful of people *really* knew what they were doing. Finding proper recruits was a pain. Back then there were only very few top guilds, now there's tons of top guilds competing for the best ranks, tons of people with proper experience, with a lot of skill, simply because wow is still wow and when you play a game for 6 years at a semi-high level, it's no wonder you're tackling encounters today with much more ease than you did a few years ago.

    And then, of course, there were totally overtuned encounters. Stuff that couldn't be cleared not because it was hard, but because you needed a way more elaborate gear-grind before you could. It had nothing to do with mechanics, which is ultimately what will make a fight interesting to do. Grinding nature res gear for weeks, months on end, just so you can stand still and dps a boss until its HP drop to 0% - no wonder the world first took several weeks (or more, I didn't bother to check). Even in TBC, when resistances played a less important role, gear was the #1 limit in progress, not actual encounter complexity. Gear plays a very important role today - heck, even in this content, Gara'jal was a very big cockblock and required some serious gear farming, but even still, encounters are way more tuned to the gear you're supposed to have NOW as opposed to the gear you're supposed to have in 2 months.

    There's nothing good about "it took forever for world firsts", because it is by no means a way to measure encounter difficulty.

  19. #79
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyuZ View Post
    I think some of you are hearing me out wrong, let me explain ,

    Edit 1 - Some are attacking this argument with the "What's the point of making content if only 1% see it." Well, what is the point of pouring time and resources into a content patch, only for all of it to be unveiled and conquered within a week? Why? I find that quite redundant and not the greatest "effort put in to make/effort put in to beat" ratio.
    Have to agree with your edit. If they continue to make content easier (in the name of more accessable) they will only lead to a downward spiral of never being able to create more content quickly enough to satisfy the competant players. There needs to be a balance between satisfying the competant players and keeping the entitled players happy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 10:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Why do you miss it?

    That's really something you gotta consider, too - ever since people got so much experience. That's another reason why many guilds won't take on inexperienced people. The more fights you've done the more you'll be able to apply what you've learned back then in newer fights, extrapolate mechanic x to mechanic y. And people have just become better players, too. The average skill of a player in vanilla and even tbc, compared to now... It was horrible. Only a handful of people *really* knew what they were doing. Finding proper recruits was a pain. Back then there were only very few top guilds, now there's tons of top guilds competing for the best ranks, tons of people with proper experience, with a lot of skill, simply because wow is still wow and when you play a game for 6 years at a semi-high level, it's no wonder you're tackling encounters today with much more ease than you did a few years ago.

    And then, of course, there were totally overtuned encounters. Stuff that couldn't be cleared not because it was hard, but because you needed a way more elaborate gear-grind before you could. It had nothing to do with mechanics, which is ultimately what will make a fight interesting to do. Grinding nature res gear for weeks, months on end, just so you can stand still and dps a boss until its HP drop to 0% - no wonder the world first took several weeks (or more, I didn't bother to check). Even in TBC, when resistances played a less important role, gear was the #1 limit in progress, not actual encounter complexity. Gear plays a very important role today - heck, even in this content, Gara'jal was a very big cockblock and required some serious gear farming, but even still, encounters are way more tuned to the gear you're supposed to have NOW as opposed to the gear you're supposed to have in 2 months.

    There's nothing good about "it took forever for world firsts", because it is by no means a way to measure encounter difficulty.
    I for one miss resistance gear. It just seams like a cheap way of blizz pounding us for more dammage that we can do nothing but learn to heal through.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  20. #80

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

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