Harder Content = Better?

[Grogo]

10 people getting together to kill a pixel boss ain't the frigging Fellowship of the Ring.

If people are having "epic" experiences while raiding, it really doesn't have anything to do with the content or its difficulty. It has to do with the people involved and their belief that they are having a peak experience while playing a game.

Are you trying to tell me there is people out there who are having "epic" experiences in LFR? I do not even know what to say to that.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 08:07 PM ----------

Well shit, that is like me having a whistling booger in my nose and calling it "music"

It may be to me but not 99.9999% of the population.

[HardCoder]

Are you trying to tell me there is people out there who are having "epic" experiences in LFR? I do not even know what to say to that.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 08:07 PM ----------

Well shit, that is like me having a whistling booger in my nose and calling it "music"

It may be to me but not 99.9999% of the population.

I'd rather hear your whistling booger all afternoon than be exposed to 5 minutes of Skrillex.

Raiders have an "epic" experience because that's what they think they are having. Why do they think that? Here's the key part. It varies from person to person.

[Grogo]

Ok, I feel you but I think the vast majority are just not having that sort of experience in LFR.

[HardCoder]

Ok, I feel you but I think the vast majority are just not having that sort of experience in LFR.

My guild stopped logging in over the holidays and we were barely able to get a 5-man going before that.

So, it's LFR for me. But it's not that bad. And occasionally it's a lot of fun. I don't have any immediate plans to do something different.

[Firebert]

And if you are not good, the game is in a better place than it used to be when you were 2 years raiding karazan only...

Or over one year during Cataclysm not raiding at all...

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:29 PM ----------

I also don't see any "threat" to top-end guilds if JohnnyHuntard the ilvl 470 LFR raider just calls it a day after clearing LFR 16/16 and thinks that he has beaten all the content and doesn't want to go any further.

What if Johnny wants to do Normal raiding? At the moment his LFR achievements are useless, and the ridiculous requirements for even the most casual raiding guilds prevent him from continuing to improve his character.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:37 PM ----------

In your eyes from other posts [LFR is] real raiding, so you've already finished the content.

Normal is real raiding, so you've finished the content, no need to do Heroic raiding.

Also, wiping and overcoming an obstacle is fun for more and a load of others, thats why we do it.

Then why can't LFR players have some harder obstacles when they've cleared all the wings on LFR difficulty? The community is currently preventing this.

[HardCoder]

If "even the most casual" raiding guild won't admit a player, the problem is not lack of achievements or whatever. The problem is most likely personality-based. There are always gobs of guilds who would like to be raiding (and who wouldn't be very good at it, but might have fun) except that they are short of warm bodies.

There are no "ridiculous requirements" for casual raiding, unless finding a group of people who don't immediately hate you is ridiculous.

[cidic]

You were a pre-formed group, hence the Cataclysm Heroics weren't that difficult for you.

Did you try solo-queuing a Cataclysm Heroic when it was current? Random 5-man PuGs didn't fare so well, so much so that Heroics like Halls of Origination took around 2 hours to complete.

Cata Heroics were hard for the vast majority of players because they solo-queued up for LFD.

I have solo Q'd when they were current content back in Cata. 90% of the time I didn't have issues outside of people not chain pulling or a dps that was lacking. At the time I was on a better battle group as well. While I still get some random good groups these days it's becoming far and few between so I'd rather run with guildmates. Also keep this in mind while I did Q with a group we had no random buff either like you get when you solo Q for LFG. The fact that we could still chain pull heroics pretty much in crap gear at the time yeah sorry Cata Heroics were a joke. MoP Heroics right now are more of a joke sadly.

edit...

ug I hate being sick and screwing up things. Meant Cata not Wrath....

[Firebert]

A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding.

Sorry, gonna have to stop you there.

Raid groups are a way to have parties of more than 5 and up to 40 people, divided into up to 8 groups of up to 5 players. The terms "raid" and "raiding" primarily and traditionally refer to PVE raid-specific instances and zones.

LFR is definitely a raid-specific zone and an instance.

Raids are designed as activities for people whose characters have reached the maximum level. As the game does not permit further increase of skills, or introduce new abilities, the only avenues remaining to enhance a character lay in "better gear".

Current LFR (that is, not DS) is only for maximum level, and has better gear for most people. It may cease to be raiding for those that do not require gear from it, but that doesn't stop it from being a raid (and hence raiding).

You can read the rest of the page here. I don't see a single line in there that differentiates Normal raiding from LFR.

It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face.

LFR is about seeing content, because the more people that see the content, the more economically viable raiding is to create. Hence LFR is (in the end) about Blizzard making money.

You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people.

People complained that they were going to lose their number one LFR parse with the Determination buff (wiping = +5% damage and healing for your next attempt). Pretty sure that they're trying their best.

For your definiton on raiding:

A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

Yep, 6+ players and nothing like anything you've experienced pre-90 (with the exception of Dragon Soul if you were lucky).

Comraderie / brotherhood

That's a guild.

Logistics / planning

Going in to Garalon and just trying to burst down the body and ignoring the tactics won't end well. Similarly with all the following bosses.

Time invested (and) Investment of time and energy for epic rewards.

Questing is raiding because you invest an inordinate amount of time in it. Clearly that's not true.

Community

That's also a guild.

Competition, with others or versus your own team.

See the people complaining about losing their LFR parse, and people boasting in LFR about their DPS.

major teamwork

"Major" is an arbitrary line. For just "teamwork", trolls deliberately proccing Crush clearly show that teamwork is required in LFR.

relationships

Again, that's a guild.

You are so far off the mark. Sorry.

[yjmark]

Then why can't LFR players have some harder obstacles when they've cleared all the wings on LFR difficulty? The community is currently preventing this.

The community is not preventing anything. If someone wants to try normal mode raiding, there are many ways to do it. If they can't figure it out, then they can only blame themselves.

[Bezoar]

I 110% believe that a harder game is a better game. Bigoted as I may (and indeed do) sound, if virtually EVERYONE can beat it, its not good.

[Firebert]

Blizzard can say what they want, most times I am sure they are correct, but sometimes like any other company they use language to dress up a negative aspect. LFR is not raiding.

It's not up to you to make the definition. Either the people that created the word make the definition or the vast majority of the people that use the language (English, etc.) warp the definition into what they think it is. There's nowhere near enough people that say LFR isn't raiding to change the definition, so it falls to Blizzard to clarify whether LFR is raiding or not.

They say it is, hence it is.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 11:11 PM ----------

The community is not preventing anything.

No PuGs due to everyone saving their lockouts for their guild, crossrealm raiding is a tier behind, and getting into a casual raiding guild with LFR achievements doesn't work. Trust me, I've tried since the beginning of Cataclysm when the casual raiding guild I was in disbanded, getting into any raiding guild with no achievements or LFR achievements is impossible.

Only the middle option isn't community based. I fail to see how it's not a community prevention.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 11:16 PM ----------

If virtually EVERYONE can beat it, its not good.

What about games like Farmville and Angry Birds?

[Otimus]

It's not up to you to make the definition. Either the people that created the word make the definition or the vast majority of the people that use the language (English, etc.) warp the definition into what they think it is. There's nowhere near enough people that say LFR isn't raiding to change the definition, so it falls to Blizzard to clarify whether LFR is raiding or not.

They say it is, hence it is.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 11:11 PM ----------


No PuGs due to everyone saving their lockouts for their guild, crossrealm raiding is a tier behind, and getting into a casual raiding guild with LFR achievements doesn't work. Trust me, I've tried since the beginning of Cataclysm when the casual raiding guild I was in disbanded, getting into any raiding guild with no achievements or LFR achievements is impossible.

Only the middle option isn't community based. I fail to see how it's not a community prevention.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 11:16 PM ----------


What about games like Farmville and Angry Birds?

I really think a lot of raiders don't grasp just how difficult getting into the "raiding game" for new players is. It's nearly impossible if you're not insanely lucky, and can find people who aren't total douchebags.

Most guilds don't want people who haven't raided before. Most people don't want guilds that don't have people who have raided before.

Basically, it's one big pot of people wanting to exclude people. This is one of the biggest reasons raid attendance is so low.


This is why LFR has to exist, you elitists. You made it this way by making sure virtually no one could do content but you. AND a lot of you have expressed, if you had it your way, you'd go so far as to remove that. Why? What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Deleted]

I really think a lot of raiders don't grasp just how difficult getting into the "raiding game" for new players is. It's nearly impossible if you're not insanely lucky, and can find people who aren't total douchebags.

Most guilds don't want people who haven't raided before. Most people don't want guilds that don't have people who have raided before.

Basically, it's one big pot of people wanting to exclude people. This is one of the biggest reasons raid attendance is so low.


This is why LFR has to exist, you elitists. You made it this way by making sure virtually no one could do content but you. AND a lot of you have expressed, if you had it your way, you'd go so far as to remove that. Why? What the hell is wrong with you people?

Blame the 10 man elitist players back in the day with 25 man raiding I will say that guilds where more inclined to take a leap of faith on a new recruit who hadn't raided before.
10 Man comes in and suddenly 90% of all guilds end up being these extremely close knit secret societies of 5 bffs and a couple of other people.
So honestly social raiding was a lot better back in WotLK.
So yea because of the 10/25 man changes more are excluded from doing normal raiding or pugs. So we end up with the bandaid of LFR.

[HardCoder]

This is why LFR has to exist, you elitists. You made it this way by making sure virtually no one could do content but you. AND a lot of you have expressed, if you had it your way, you'd go so far as to remove that. Why? What the hell is wrong with you people?

This is oddly spot-on.

You "harder game" folks want complex, major content that's "hard enough" for you, but for various reasons, that content will be inaccessible to most of the people who are actually paying for the game.

It's not going to happen that most people are going to "step up" to normal mode raiding let alone heroic raiding. It's not a matter of trying harder. There are brick walls in the way. They don't have time, they don't have skill, they don't feel like farming buff food, they don't feel like running dailies for reputation, they have 500 msec latency, whatever, et cetera. They are never going to "finish" the content.

So there is EZ-Pug mode LFR so the other 95% can have their fun anyway.

If some of you think LFR is an abomination, my suggestion is you suck up and deal with it, because it's the most successful abomination in the past couple years of WoW.

[Deleted]

You "harder game" folks want complex, major content that's "hard enough" for you, but for various reasons, that content will be inaccessible to most of the people who are actually paying for the game.

Well now it's more like extra hard or retarded. There is no middle way anymore. Atleast what comes to most of content.

[Enosh]

Blizzard can say what they want

well given that they are the ones taht you know, design the game, it does matter what they say

Blame the 10 man elitist players back in the day with 25 man raiding I will say that guilds where more inclined to take a leap of faith on a new recruit who hadn't raided before.
10 Man comes in and suddenly 90% of all guilds end up being these extremely close knit secret societies of 5 bffs and a couple of other people.
So honestly social raiding was a lot better back in WotLK.
So yea because of the 10/25 man changes more are excluded from doing normal raiding or pugs. So we end up with the bandaid of LFR.

yes, 10 man killed new players getting to raid and it also killed Kennedy, princes Diana and was a co conspirator in the Lincoln assassination

[Otimus]

Blame the 10 man elitist players back in the day with 25 man raiding I will say that guilds where more inclined to take a leap of faith on a new recruit who hadn't raided before.
10 Man comes in and suddenly 90% of all guilds end up being these extremely close knit secret societies of 5 bffs and a couple of other people.
So honestly social raiding was a lot better back in WotLK.
So yea because of the 10/25 man changes more are excluded from doing normal raiding or pugs. So we end up with the bandaid of LFR.

I'd actually say all of the problems started with the introduction of achievements.

As the game gets easier, the demands from people get higher and higher. Blizzard takes one step forward, the community takes about 20 steps back. It's some bizarre trend that seemingly only exists in MMOs. Like... no one's not going to play with you in other games because you don't have proof of already have done something. Just MMOs.

[TaurenNinja]

What if Johnny wants to do Normal raiding? At the moment his LFR achievements are useless, and the ridiculous requirements for even the most casual raiding guilds prevent him from continuing to improve his character.

I don't think that is true at all. It wasn't my experience at all.

When I started WoW in 2008 and had my first level 80 toon I joined a casual raiding guild who simply invited everyone who had interest and was at level 80 and in dungeon gear. Of course this was a bad raid and bad guild, but to get your first step into raiding it was extremely helpful. You get to see some bosses, and get a feel for the raiding environment.

And even today, I see several (necessarily casual) guilds on my server who just look for *ANY* player without requirements at all.

I think you're confusing random tradechat PUG group raiding ("LFM MSV nhc with clearxp and ilvl 490 only") with casual raiding guilds. Both are different beasts.

[Libertarian]

I personally feel like every tier of the game should redo the whole "start of the expansion feel". I know a lot of people would disagree here, but there are many times people want to swap mains and alts. Blizzard releasing new dungeons and content isn't a bad thing either. Say if I wanted to try out monk this tier, I would need to gear it up 463, then 470 then 480 and enough 502 to be competitive in normal. If Blizzard were to design 4-5 new 5 man dungeons with an item level around 502, bump LFR and the rest up, I would probably have much more fun. And this is coming from someone who is 15/16H with 508 item level.

I think the start of the expansion is the best feeling in this game. And given that blizzard plans to release an expansion every 2 years, we should be hearing about the next expansion at blizzcon.

[Mosotti]

Mike says that this was NOT a bad thing

Mike is a fucking idiot

Infracted for flaming