1. #1021
    Stopped raiding in ICC so i dont have any experience from cataclysm/mop. The game was slow back in vanilla, everything took a very long time to do. I was up in felwoodgrinding essence of water for over 12 hours and i ended up earning 150g after i sold them on ah. My point being that for the people who got to see naxxramas and kill Kel alot of hard work and alot of dedication was required. I didnt mind not getting to see all of naxxramas, i got to see the kills thru movies.

    When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?

    I was a raider in vanilla,tbc and wotlk and i think i had the most fun in ulduar. Hardmodes and killing the boss in a new and much harder way was very exciting to me.
    [

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?
    I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?

  3. #1023
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And I just disagree. To be a bit harsh, I think you're whining a bit. Of course this is the case for some people but this is directly related to what I've been saying about making a good impression and putting in the effort. Because if you can demonstrate knowledge about your class/spec, show that you care about your character in terms of professions, enchants, gems etc. and generally make a good impression, there will be guilds who will give you a chance. My own guild has done this several times, taken a chance with someone. Most of the times we made the right decision but obviously you have to make up for lack of gear and experience in another way.

    What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?
    I didn't really say it was IMPOSSIBLE, just that it's very unlikely. At least in so far as how it is on my server (Blackrock).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 04:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?
    I'm not sure, but if anything, hasn't evidence shown that the amount of raiders hasn't really grown all that much since wrath? and has kind of tapered off over time, even, LFR not counting?

  4. #1024
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    East Coast USA
    Posts
    3,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And I just disagree. To be a bit harsh, I think you're whining a bit. Of course this is the case for some people but this is directly related to what I've been saying about making a good impression and putting in the effort. Because if you can demonstrate knowledge about your class/spec, show that you care about your character in terms of professions, enchants, gems etc. and generally make a good impression, there will be guilds who will give you a chance. My own guild has done this several times, taken a chance with someone. Most of the times we made the right decision but obviously you have to make up for lack of gear and experience in another way.

    What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?
    Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  5. #1025
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,039
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?
    But that's not what I said. Maybe go read it again, cause I never said anything about the pool of raiders or raiding guilds. I said, that it would seem like he's implying, that NO new players has entered the raiding pool - see the difference?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 05:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.
    That doesn't mean, that I'm not entitled to an opinion. Why post at all, if you don't want to discuss?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 06:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I didn't really say it was IMPOSSIBLE, just that it's very unlikely. At least in so far as how it is on my server (Blackrock).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 04:00 AM ----------



    I'm not sure, but if anything, hasn't evidence shown that the amount of raiders hasn't really grown all that much since wrath? and has kind of tapered off over time, even, LFR not counting?
    I remember Blackrock, from when I played on US servers myself. Back then (2 years ago) Blackrock had a reputation for being a server with really good guilds but also for having a nasty attitude. Obviously that was just the word on my own server and much can have changed. But as I said, it can vary from server to server. It depends on the amount of "hardcore" guilds compared to the more "casual" guilds and the amount of raiding guilds as a whole. Obviously it's going to be a lot harder getting into a guild on a low pop server for instance.

    And again, both you and I are basing our arguments off of personal experience. In your case, on your server, it may actually be near impossible for new raiders to enter the raiding scene. But on my server, there's a lot of Normal mode guilds and as I've said several times before, my own guild has taken chances several times.

    But I guess this is the same old discussion between more casual (not bad by default) and more serious players. We see things from two completely different angles and because of the experiences you've personally had, I doubt I can make you change your view. Just as it's unlikely, that you can change mine.

    I will say this tough; Blizz has done a lot to the really casual playerbase introducing LFR, making it accessible to everyone regardless experience and effort. Maybe they haven't paid enough attention to the players who wants a bigger challenge than LFR but struggles on the harder Normal bosses. I don't know tbh.
    What I do know, is that the amount of bosses in this Tier added with the fairly short amount of time people have had to kill them, it may feel more stressful for more casual players.

    Had there only been 8 bosses like in DS, people would have had a lot more time to spend on each boss. Also, the class balancing and the boss mechanics tend to punish bad setups. A lot of guilds (not just casual) struggles trying to balance the setup, where caster dps yet again are being favored for most encounters. My guess is, that more casual guilds will be more inclined to bring the player they like, rather than the player who happens to play the best class. That's not an option for Heroic guilds and if you try to clear even Normal mode as a casual guild with 3 melee and 2 Resto Druids, you kinda made things a lot harder already. But that's not so much about tuning in terms of difficulty, that's more about tuning between classes.

  6. #1026
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.
    ....What in the world does that mean?

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ah, the old "the game is fine, it's the players who are defective" argument.

    Um, no.
    Uhm, yes.


    How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
    In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.

  8. #1028
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Moistmuffins View Post
    Um... making normal raids even less accessible to people? Not everyone wants to do 25 mans, why do people not understand this?
    Sucks to be them. Also not being able to access something means A. they will whine about it. B. Accept and improve / join 25 man guild. C.Accept and stay at their current level.
    It also reflects on your real life - if you can´t access something, or don´t want to do something do you then whine till you get in or say that if you don´t like doing something then noone should? As you can probably see I think its a good idea to have different raids for different amounts of people / difficulty - I might not like it if I can´t run, but I´d accept the fact there are alot of content and that I´d have to go through some work to get there (depending on guild). Anything that would actually be crap would be the behaviour of people who went there and started taunting those who can´t being jerks about it. But I´d prefer it over the current state where you hardly got any reason to either be in a guild, or really improve.
    "Only Jack can zip up."
    The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
    You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

  9. #1029
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,863
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    Uhm, yes.


    How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
    In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.
    You are a very good or even great player in a team of very good or even great players. Grats!

    You are also conmpletely unrepresentative of the playerbase as a whole. Normal mode raids are overtuned, end of story.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 11:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible View Post
    Sucks to be them. Also not being able to access something means A. they will whine about it. B. Accept and improve / join 25 man guild. C.Accept and stay at their current level.
    It also reflects on your real life - if you can´t access something, or don´t want to do something do you then whine till you get in or say that if you don´t like doing something then noone should? As you can probably see I think its a good idea to have different raids for different amounts of people / difficulty - I might not like it if I can´t run, but I´d accept the fact there are alot of content and that I´d have to go through some work to get there (depending on guild). Anything that would actually be crap would be the behaviour of people who went there and started taunting those who can´t being jerks about it. But I´d prefer it over the current state where you hardly got any reason to either be in a guild, or really improve.
    Well I dunno about you, but any supermarket that had an assault course where the front door should be is one I would judiciously avoid shopping in.

    And so it is with games. make your game inaccessible, people don't play it, you go broke and then there is no game.

    When you make for an audience, you have to make for that audience. End of story, this isn't caving in to whiners, or being weak, it's a fact of selling stuff to people. You give them what they want or someone else does.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by joppas View Post
    When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?
    I don't think that the creation of LFR was entirely driven by subscriber demand.

    I think there was also great frustration at Blizzard that content that took a lot of time and effort and money to design, a significant part of the effort for each release of the game, was being missed by most subscribers.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    Uhm, yes.

    How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
    In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.
    A few fights on normal is a bit overtuned for a generic wow player from my experience. You have to keep in mind this is a game and majority of people play it for fun. People don't always care enough to spend time to get better in order to overcome a challenge presented in a game.

    I remember back in highschool, my physics class spent 1 entire week explaining X and Y components to a vector and how that relates to a projectile motion. I was able to grasp the concept in 10 min but some other students literally took a week by reading textbook and asking questions. They bothered reading and asking questions because they are motivated to do so to get better grades. If grades weren't there then I would assume most people would simply not care and give up.

    So I think you just have to realize that there are a lot of people playing wow and most of them simply are not good enough for the standard that Blizzard has set and the players are not motivated enough to improve. Afterall, WoW is a game designed for fun. So the only options for them to beat a difficult encounter is to wait for the blanket nerf and/or wait for Blizz to nerf those specific encounters.

    So yeah, wowprogress data definitely suggests that normal mode encounter is too difficult for the current WoW raiders in general. And that is also why Blizzard is bringing the difficulty down with a blanket nerf when 5.2 hits.
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  12. #1032
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    A few fights on normal is a bit overtuned for a generic wow player from my experience. You have to keep in mind this is a game and majority of people play it for fun. People don't always care enough to spend time to get better in order to overcome a challenge presented in a game.

    I remember back in highschool, my physics class spent 1 entire week explaining X and Y components to a vector and how that relates to a projectile motion. I was able to grasp the concept in 10 min but some other students literally took a week by reading textbook and asking questions. They bothered reading and asking questions because they are motivated to do so to get better grades. If grades weren't there then I would assume most people would simply not care and give up.

    So I think you just have to realize that there are a lot of people playing wow and most of them simply are not good enough for the standard that Blizzard has set and the players are not motivated enough to improve. Afterall, WoW is a game designed for fun. So the only options for them to beat a difficult encounter is to wait for the blanket nerf and/or wait for Blizz to nerf those specific encounters.

    So yeah, wowprogress data definitely suggests that normal mode encounter is too difficult for the current WoW raiders in general. And that is also why Blizzard is bringing the difficulty down with a blanket nerf when 5.2 hits.
    I really like your analogy, and I like how you explained this. This is the way to do it, people. Don't compare things to jobs. That's the wrong way to do it.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by joppas View Post
    When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?
    As far as I remember they pushed to get LFR out at the end of Cata although it was planned for MoP. I think it had more to do with the fact that with the merger of 10 and 25 lockouts. And the increase in difficulty in 10 mans.
    A lot of people who used to raid found themselves in a situation where they couldn't progress very far into raid instances, either because they where not good enough or because they where unable to find a guild willing to let them join or perhap because of the funny trend that started with cata of if you do not have the achivement you can join my pug, but I can't get the achivement because I haven't done the raid yet.
    So I think that the reason they pushed LFR is because of complaints from a large group of raiders who couldn't raid anymore.

  14. #1034
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,039
    I still think, that except a few fights maybe, the tuning is fine. If people want to see the content (something that has been brought up in this very thread), they can do LFR and see the end boss without any effort.

    If people want to raid on a regular basis and expect to clear the content, they need to put in effort. And again, new players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild. You can complain about it all you want, but end of the day, you have a choice.

    Make the effort or settle with LFR imo.

  15. #1035
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dat Ingurlund, brrrrrap
    Posts
    4,989
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    New players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild.
    A percentage of the stepping stones that were there in WotLK have gone. Everyone else had an easier time getting into a raiding guild.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I still think, that except a few fights maybe, the tuning is fine. If people want to see the content (something that has been brought up in this very thread), they can do LFR and see the end boss without any effort.

    If people want to raid on a regular basis and expect to clear the content, they need to put in effort. And again, new players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild. You can complain about it all you want, but end of the day, you have a choice.

    Make the effort or settle with LFR imo.
    So I did LFR yesterday.
    And we wiped on Amber-Shaper Un'sok about 5 times before we killed him.

    The problem was people not being able to grasp the fact, that you have to attack the big-ass add instead of the boss, and our two tanks fighting to main tank Amber-Shaper Un'sok instead of the add (no they were not mutated). It is truely not the game (if you are wiping in LFR because players can't even switch to another target) that is broken. It should be so obvious to people if they look at their damage and see they are doing 80% less damage, that they probably should not be attacking that target.

    If people really want to progress and see content, as many claim the issue to be, then by all means learn from your mistakes and do better next time. Take 10 minutes to watch a video on youtube or whatever, just to get an idea of what to do if you are completely clueless.
    ^ People used to be forced to do this, but because of whine from the newer population blizzard tuned it down. But if they keep doing this what will it end up with? Next thing is people whining about HCs being too hard too. Like when they nerfed Raggy HC.
    People are not whining to see content, they are whining to access epics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I really like your analogy, and I like how you explained this. This is the way to do it, people. Don't compare things to jobs. That's the wrong way to do it.
    If I whine in the real life about school being too hard for me to grasp, do you think the teachers will go ahead and say: Well ok we'll just lower the requirements for the knowledge you need, or do you think they will tell me to work harder and seek addiontional help?

    It's not overtuned if people are able to clear content with worse gear than the requirement for LFR. This just means people should start switching targets on time, and communicate with their teams instead of banging loud music when raiding.

    Ps. Even if gaming is all about fun, what's the fun in doing something halfass and getting it handed to you? - Isn't it more fun to accomplish something you have faught for?
    Even if you can't kill whatever boss you are working on within the first 20 tries, at least you'll know that when you DO kill it, you've done well, and others probably struggled too.
    ^To me this is why I raid, not because it get shiny stuff (that's nice of course, but not what makes it fun).
    Last edited by Chiefy; 2013-03-02 at 09:14 AM.

  17. #1037
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,863
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    So I did LFR yesterday.



    If I whine in the real life about school being too hard for me to grasp, do you think the teachers will go ahead and say: Well ok we'll just lower the requirements for the knowledge you need, or do you think they will tell me to work harder and seek addiontional help?
    .
    Any decent teacher will indeed get you more help, change their own approach to teaching and, in the final analysis, if you can't hack the program, get you something else to do so you can progress at your own pace and still learn at least something.

    What no teacher worth a damn will ever do is tell you "you suck" and to expect you to magically improve without any guidance whatsoever.

    And again, people don't "whine" - they quit. Cata heroics too hard? People quit. Raiding too hard? People quit. Solo play experience balls hard before level 10? They quit.

    Games are supposed to be fun.

    Most people when doing something that is supposed to be fun have a little voice* that goes "Am I having fun yet?" over and over, and if they hear the word "nope" they stop playing. Maybe if you write "FUN" on the inside your eyeballs and you see it every time you blink you may eventually get the point.




    *I imagine it sounds like Yahtzee from zero punctuation.....
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  18. #1038
    about LFR, me, i want to get in there, kill the boss asap and get out of there even sooner. So 1 time i took a guildie with me, somewhere in the middle of the fight i checked recount, couldnt see his nam eon it (in top 10). Asked him why is his dps so low? "oh i only do few skills in LFR and then go afk, watch a movie on utube, grab a snack or w/e i dont stay in game". As u can clearly see that doesnt go along with my need to do lfr asap, so i dont go there with him anymore.

    Now about the main question. We done leishi hc, at the moment he died, i felt nothing. On TS there was total silence, borken by "whats the loot cuz i have to use the coin!" There were no wave of happiness, relief or w.e ppl usually feel. 1 person out of whole raid said "Finally!" after the loot was given, so im not sure if it was about boss or loot. The fight was so easy that im suprised only <5% players killed him. @this point i realised that 95% of players just want tank'n'spank dummies as raid bosses. Best if they dont even move so they could go 25 dps. But then the problem would be, that they cant even dps right, geezz.

    Last time a boss died that made me feel that it was somekind of accomplishment was on nefarian in BWD. It coused happiness, warmth in heart, the "YES!!!" After that came FL with skill req decrease, bosses droped way to fast, made them meaningless. Then came DS, RL told us to be prepared for half the raid (4 bosses), as thats how many he wanted to do THAT WEEK. After 1,5h all 4 were dead, leaving us with a "wtf this raid is for noobs" feeling. RL had to end the raid due to noone beeing prepared for next bosses. Now we have mop, but bosses still die fast, makes them feel just like in FL, meaningless.

    From all those, 1 cata tier was "hardest", and as i written on my own example, the only tier that caused any emotions after killing bosses. So i guess "Harder Content = Better!"

  19. #1039
    Bloodsail Admiral Rinoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    In an igloo.
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Any decent teacher will indeed get you more help, change their own approach to teaching and, in the final analysis, if you can't hack the program, get you something else to do so you can progress at your own pace and still learn at least something.

    What no teacher worth a damn will ever do is tell you "you suck" and to expect you to magically improve without any guidance whatsoever.
    The thing is that there is guidance though. There are multitudes of excellent class guides, step-by-step guides on how to kill bosses, how to do decent DPS and so on. The resources are out there - use them if you need them.

    Personally both I and my guild as a whole keep up with how our classes are played, we check out patch updates, theorycrafting and so on. The results are obvious, it's working. We cleared 6/6 normal MSV the week of release with the only hiccup being Elegon as the DPS requirement is harsh in ilvl 460-465. Don't expect to be killing these bosses if your raid also do not make any effort to even know how to perform well. This is part of the reason why LFR was implemented.

  20. #1040
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,863
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinoa View Post
    The thing is that there is guidance though. There are multitudes of excellent class guides, step-by-step guides on how to kill bosses, how to do decent DPS and so on. The resources are out there - use them if you need them.

    Personally both I and my guild as a whole keep up with how our classes are played, we check out patch updates, theorycrafting and so on. The results are obvious, it's working. We cleared 6/6 normal MSV the week of release with the only hiccup being Elegon as the DPS requirement is harsh in ilvl 460-465. Don't expect to be killing these bosses if your raid also do not make any effort to even know how to perform well. This is part of the reason why LFR was implemented.
    Players in general dont do any of this.

    They never have.

    They never will.

    If it's not in th game and it's not in and of itself fun, they don't care. And I have no idea why they should. Can you give me a reason?
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •