---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 04:00 AM ----------
---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 05:56 AM ----------
---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 06:10 AM ----------
And again, both you and I are basing our arguments off of personal experience. In your case, on your server, it may actually be near impossible for new raiders to enter the raiding scene. But on my server, there's a lot of Normal mode guilds and as I've said several times before, my own guild has taken chances several times.
But I guess this is the same old discussion between more casual (not bad by default) and more serious players. We see things from two completely different angles and because of the experiences you've personally had, I doubt I can make you change your view. Just as it's unlikely, that you can change mine.
I will say this tough; Blizz has done a lot to the really casual playerbase introducing LFR, making it accessible to everyone regardless experience and effort. Maybe they haven't paid enough attention to the players who wants a bigger challenge than LFR but struggles on the harder Normal bosses. I don't know tbh.
What I do know, is that the amount of bosses in this Tier added with the fairly short amount of time people have had to kill them, it may feel more stressful for more casual players.
Had there only been 8 bosses like in DS, people would have had a lot more time to spend on each boss. Also, the class balancing and the boss mechanics tend to punish bad setups. A lot of guilds (not just casual) struggles trying to balance the setup, where caster dps yet again are being favored for most encounters. My guess is, that more casual guilds will be more inclined to bring the player they like, rather than the player who happens to play the best class. That's not an option for Heroic guilds and if you try to clear even Normal mode as a casual guild with 3 melee and 2 Resto Druids, you kinda made things a lot harder already. But that's not so much about tuning in terms of difficulty, that's more about tuning between classes.
How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.
It also reflects on your real life - if you can´t access something, or don´t want to do something do you then whine till you get in or say that if you don´t like doing something then noone should? As you can probably see I think its a good idea to have different raids for different amounts of people / difficulty - I might not like it if I can´t run, but I´d accept the fact there are alot of content and that I´d have to go through some work to get there (depending on guild). Anything that would actually be crap would be the behaviour of people who went there and started taunting those who can´t being jerks about it. But I´d prefer it over the current state where you hardly got any reason to either be in a guild, or really improve.
"Only Jack can zip up."
The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.
You are also conmpletely unrepresentative of the playerbase as a whole. Normal mode raids are overtuned, end of story.
---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 11:08 AM ----------
And so it is with games. make your game inaccessible, people don't play it, you go broke and then there is no game.
When you make for an audience, you have to make for that audience. End of story, this isn't caving in to whiners, or being weak, it's a fact of selling stuff to people. You give them what they want or someone else does.
I think there was also great frustration at Blizzard that content that took a lot of time and effort and money to design, a significant part of the effort for each release of the game, was being missed by most subscribers.
I remember back in highschool, my physics class spent 1 entire week explaining X and Y components to a vector and how that relates to a projectile motion. I was able to grasp the concept in 10 min but some other students literally took a week by reading textbook and asking questions. They bothered reading and asking questions because they are motivated to do so to get better grades. If grades weren't there then I would assume most people would simply not care and give up.
So I think you just have to realize that there are a lot of people playing wow and most of them simply are not good enough for the standard that Blizzard has set and the players are not motivated enough to improve. Afterall, WoW is a game designed for fun. So the only options for them to beat a difficult encounter is to wait for the blanket nerf and/or wait for Blizz to nerf those specific encounters.
So yeah, wowprogress data definitely suggests that normal mode encounter is too difficult for the current WoW raiders in general. And that is also why Blizzard is bringing the difficulty down with a blanket nerf when 5.2 hits.
their moving their table over their
they're moving they're table over they're
there moving there table over there
A lot of people who used to raid found themselves in a situation where they couldn't progress very far into raid instances, either because they where not good enough or because they where unable to find a guild willing to let them join or perhap because of the funny trend that started with cata of if you do not have the achivement you can join my pug, but I can't get the achivement because I haven't done the raid yet.
So I think that the reason they pushed LFR is because of complaints from a large group of raiders who couldn't raid anymore.
I still think, that except a few fights maybe, the tuning is fine. If people want to see the content (something that has been brought up in this very thread), they can do LFR and see the end boss without any effort.
If people want to raid on a regular basis and expect to clear the content, they need to put in effort. And again, new players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild. You can complain about it all you want, but end of the day, you have a choice.
Make the effort or settle with LFR imo.
37 + (3*7) + (3*7)W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 1/6/7 | TPR: 0.5/4.5/5SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1Multi-World First Blood DK Sneezie
And we wiped on Amber-Shaper Un'sok about 5 times before we killed him.
The problem was people not being able to grasp the fact, that you have to attack the big-ass add instead of the boss, and our two tanks fighting to main tank Amber-Shaper Un'sok instead of the add (no they were not mutated). It is truely not the game (if you are wiping in LFR because players can't even switch to another target) that is broken. It should be so obvious to people if they look at their damage and see they are doing 80% less damage, that they probably should not be attacking that target.
If people really want to progress and see content, as many claim the issue to be, then by all means learn from your mistakes and do better next time. Take 10 minutes to watch a video on youtube or whatever, just to get an idea of what to do if you are completely clueless.
^ People used to be forced to do this, but because of whine from the newer population blizzard tuned it down. But if they keep doing this what will it end up with? Next thing is people whining about HCs being too hard too. Like when they nerfed Raggy HC.
People are not whining to see content, they are whining to access epics.
It's not overtuned if people are able to clear content with worse gear than the requirement for LFR. This just means people should start switching targets on time, and communicate with their teams instead of banging loud music when raiding.
Ps. Even if gaming is all about fun, what's the fun in doing something halfass and getting it handed to you? - Isn't it more fun to accomplish something you have faught for?
Even if you can't kill whatever boss you are working on within the first 20 tries, at least you'll know that when you DO kill it, you've done well, and others probably struggled too.
^To me this is why I raid, not because it get shiny stuff (that's nice of course, but not what makes it fun).
Last edited by Chiefy; 2013-03-02 at 09:14 AM.
What no teacher worth a damn will ever do is tell you "you suck" and to expect you to magically improve without any guidance whatsoever.
And again, people don't "whine" - they quit. Cata heroics too hard? People quit. Raiding too hard? People quit. Solo play experience balls hard before level 10? They quit.
Games are supposed to be fun.
Most people when doing something that is supposed to be fun have a little voice* that goes "Am I having fun yet?" over and over, and if they hear the word "nope" they stop playing. Maybe if you write "FUN" on the inside your eyeballs and you see it every time you blink you may eventually get the point.
*I imagine it sounds like Yahtzee from zero punctuation.....
about LFR, me, i want to get in there, kill the boss asap and get out of there even sooner. So 1 time i took a guildie with me, somewhere in the middle of the fight i checked recount, couldnt see his nam eon it (in top 10). Asked him why is his dps so low? "oh i only do few skills in LFR and then go afk, watch a movie on utube, grab a snack or w/e i dont stay in game". As u can clearly see that doesnt go along with my need to do lfr asap, so i dont go there with him anymore.
Now about the main question. We done leishi hc, at the moment he died, i felt nothing. On TS there was total silence, borken by "whats the loot cuz i have to use the coin!" There were no wave of happiness, relief or w.e ppl usually feel. 1 person out of whole raid said "Finally!" after the loot was given, so im not sure if it was about boss or loot. The fight was so easy that im suprised only <5% players killed him. @this point i realised that 95% of players just want tank'n'spank dummies as raid bosses. Best if they dont even move so they could go 25 dps. But then the problem would be, that they cant even dps right, geezz.
Last time a boss died that made me feel that it was somekind of accomplishment was on nefarian in BWD. It coused happiness, warmth in heart, the "YES!!!" After that came FL with skill req decrease, bosses droped way to fast, made them meaningless. Then came DS, RL told us to be prepared for half the raid (4 bosses), as thats how many he wanted to do THAT WEEK. After 1,5h all 4 were dead, leaving us with a "wtf this raid is for noobs" feeling. RL had to end the raid due to noone beeing prepared for next bosses. Now we have mop, but bosses still die fast, makes them feel just like in FL, meaningless.
From all those, 1 cata tier was "hardest", and as i written on my own example, the only tier that caused any emotions after killing bosses. So i guess "Harder Content = Better!"
Personally both I and my guild as a whole keep up with how our classes are played, we check out patch updates, theorycrafting and so on. The results are obvious, it's working. We cleared 6/6 normal MSV the week of release with the only hiccup being Elegon as the DPS requirement is harsh in ilvl 460-465. Don't expect to be killing these bosses if your raid also do not make any effort to even know how to perform well. This is part of the reason why LFR was implemented.