Harder Content = Better?

[Deleted]

I still think, that except a few fights maybe, the tuning is fine. If people want to see the content (something that has been brought up in this very thread), they can do LFR and see the end boss without any effort.

If people want to raid on a regular basis and expect to clear the content, they need to put in effort. And again, new players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild. You can complain about it all you want, but end of the day, you have a choice.

Make the effort or settle with LFR imo.

[Firebert]

New players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild.

A percentage of the stepping stones that were there in WotLK have gone. Everyone else had an easier time getting into a raiding guild.

[Wheelz]

I still think, that except a few fights maybe, the tuning is fine. If people want to see the content (something that has been brought up in this very thread), they can do LFR and see the end boss without any effort.

If people want to raid on a regular basis and expect to clear the content, they need to put in effort. And again, new players can't expect to just skip all the stepping stones, that everyone else had to use in order to get in to a raiding guild. You can complain about it all you want, but end of the day, you have a choice.

Make the effort or settle with LFR imo.

So I did LFR yesterday.
And we wiped on Amber-Shaper Un'sok about 5 times before we killed him.

The problem was people not being able to grasp the fact, that you have to attack the big-ass add instead of the boss, and our two tanks fighting to main tank Amber-Shaper Un'sok instead of the add (no they were not mutated). It is truely not the game (if you are wiping in LFR because players can't even switch to another target) that is broken. It should be so obvious to people if they look at their damage and see they are doing 80% less damage, that they probably should not be attacking that target.

If people really want to progress and see content, as many claim the issue to be, then by all means learn from your mistakes and do better next time. Take 10 minutes to watch a video on youtube or whatever, just to get an idea of what to do if you are completely clueless.
^ People used to be forced to do this, but because of whine from the newer population blizzard tuned it down. But if they keep doing this what will it end up with? Next thing is people whining about HCs being too hard too. Like when they nerfed Raggy HC.
People are not whining to see content, they are whining to access epics.

I really like your analogy, and I like how you explained this. This is the way to do it, people. Don't compare things to jobs. That's the wrong way to do it.

If I whine in the real life about school being too hard for me to grasp, do you think the teachers will go ahead and say: Well ok we'll just lower the requirements for the knowledge you need, or do you think they will tell me to work harder and seek addiontional help?

It's not overtuned if people are able to clear content with worse gear than the requirement for LFR. This just means people should start switching targets on time, and communicate with their teams instead of banging loud music when raiding.

Ps. Even if gaming is all about fun, what's the fun in doing something halfass and getting it handed to you? - Isn't it more fun to accomplish something you have faught for?
Even if you can't kill whatever boss you are working on within the first 20 tries, at least you'll know that when you DO kill it, you've done well, and others probably struggled too.
^To me this is why I raid, not because it get shiny stuff (that's nice of course, but not what makes it fun).

[Deleted]

So I did LFR yesterday.



If I whine in the real life about school being too hard for me to grasp, do you think the teachers will go ahead and say: Well ok we'll just lower the requirements for the knowledge you need, or do you think they will tell me to work harder and seek addiontional help?
.

Any decent teacher will indeed get you more help, change their own approach to teaching and, in the final analysis, if you can't hack the program, get you something else to do so you can progress at your own pace and still learn at least something.

What no teacher worth a damn will ever do is tell you "you suck" and to expect you to magically improve without any guidance whatsoever.

And again, people don't "whine" - they quit. Cata heroics too hard? People quit. Raiding too hard? People quit. Solo play experience balls hard before level 10? They quit.

Games are supposed to be fun.

Most people when doing something that is supposed to be fun have a little voice* that goes "Am I having fun yet?" over and over, and if they hear the word "nope" they stop playing. Maybe if you write "FUN" on the inside your eyeballs and you see it every time you blink you may eventually get the point.




*I imagine it sounds like Yahtzee from zero punctuation.....

[Deleted]

about LFR, me, i want to get in there, kill the boss asap and get out of there even sooner. So 1 time i took a guildie with me, somewhere in the middle of the fight i checked recount, couldnt see his nam eon it (in top 10). Asked him why is his dps so low? "oh i only do few skills in LFR and then go afk, watch a movie on utube, grab a snack or w/e i dont stay in game". As u can clearly see that doesnt go along with my need to do lfr asap, so i dont go there with him anymore.

Now about the main question. We done leishi hc, at the moment he died, i felt nothing. On TS there was total silence, borken by "whats the loot cuz i have to use the coin!" There were no wave of happiness, relief or w.e ppl usually feel. 1 person out of whole raid said "Finally!" after the loot was given, so im not sure if it was about boss or loot. The fight was so easy that im suprised only <5% players killed him. @this point i realised that 95% of players just want tank'n'spank dummies as raid bosses. Best if they dont even move so they could go 25 dps. But then the problem would be, that they cant even dps right, geezz.

Last time a boss died that made me feel that it was somekind of accomplishment was on nefarian in BWD. It coused happiness, warmth in heart, the "YES!!!" After that came FL with skill req decrease, bosses droped way to fast, made them meaningless. Then came DS, RL told us to be prepared for half the raid (4 bosses), as thats how many he wanted to do THAT WEEK. After 1,5h all 4 were dead, leaving us with a "wtf this raid is for noobs" feeling. RL had to end the raid due to noone beeing prepared for next bosses. Now we have mop, but bosses still die fast, makes them feel just like in FL, meaningless.

From all those, 1 cata tier was "hardest", and as i written on my own example, the only tier that caused any emotions after killing bosses. So i guess "Harder Content = Better!"

[Rinoa]

Any decent teacher will indeed get you more help, change their own approach to teaching and, in the final analysis, if you can't hack the program, get you something else to do so you can progress at your own pace and still learn at least something.

What no teacher worth a damn will ever do is tell you "you suck" and to expect you to magically improve without any guidance whatsoever.

The thing is that there is guidance though. There are multitudes of excellent class guides, step-by-step guides on how to kill bosses, how to do decent DPS and so on. The resources are out there - use them if you need them.

Personally both I and my guild as a whole keep up with how our classes are played, we check out patch updates, theorycrafting and so on. The results are obvious, it's working. We cleared 6/6 normal MSV the week of release with the only hiccup being Elegon as the DPS requirement is harsh in ilvl 460-465. Don't expect to be killing these bosses if your raid also do not make any effort to even know how to perform well. This is part of the reason why LFR was implemented.

[Deleted]

The thing is that there is guidance though. There are multitudes of excellent class guides, step-by-step guides on how to kill bosses, how to do decent DPS and so on. The resources are out there - use them if you need them.

Personally both I and my guild as a whole keep up with how our classes are played, we check out patch updates, theorycrafting and so on. The results are obvious, it's working. We cleared 6/6 normal MSV the week of release with the only hiccup being Elegon as the DPS requirement is harsh in ilvl 460-465. Don't expect to be killing these bosses if your raid also do not make any effort to even know how to perform well. This is part of the reason why LFR was implemented.

Players in general dont do any of this.

They never have.

They never will.

If it's not in th game and it's not in and of itself fun, they don't care. And I have no idea why they should. Can you give me a reason?

[NeverStop]

Players in general dont do any of this.

They never have.

They never will.

If it's not in th game and it's not in and of itself fun, they don't care. And I have no idea why they should. Can you give me a reason?

I have fun when I wipe. Why can't other people be like me?

[Deleted]

I have fun when I wipe. Why can't other people be like me?

No idea, but they ain't.

[Rinoa]

Well, then those players probably belong in LFR - and that is totally okay. In my opinion it's important that players who do not care about performing well also get to see the content, if only for lore and funness (yes, that is now a word) reasons. They should not, however, expect to do even normal mode without putting at least a couple of hours of effort in to ensure that they know the basics of their classes.

[Deleted]

Well, then those players probably belong in LFR - and that is totally okay. In my opinion it's important that players who do not care about performing well also get to see the content, if only for lore and funness (yes, that is now a word) reasons. They should not, however, expect to do even normal mode without putting at least a couple of hours of effort in to ensure that they know the basics of their classes.

Then normal mode needs to be renamed "hard mode" because unless it's doable by the norm it's not normal, is it.

The clue is in the word "normal" which means average, the mean. And then, once we've renamed things so they match what they are really like, we can have a normal mode of raids, slightly harder than LFR but still doable by average players - i.e. a "normal mode"

[Metta World Peace]

Everyone is so eager to blame early cata for the loss. Cataclysm went through a major roller coaster in terms of game direction, from hard to easy and it really made no difference in terms of numbers.

Game is too hard people left. Game is too easy people left. Which is it? Oddly enough, more people left when the game was becoming "too easy"

[Ytlayol]

Harder content does not mean better content. Most people play video games as they were created for, mild enjoyment and to pass the time - not an alternate life style most posters seem to think.

[Firebert]

If I whine in the real life about school being too hard for me to grasp, do you think the teachers will go ahead and say: Well ok we'll just lower the requirements for the knowledge you need, or do you think they will tell me to work harder and seek addiontional help?

This is why GCSEs are tiered in UK schools. Not good enough to learn about stuff, you'll get put in for the Foundation paper instead of the Higher paper.

They'll always tell you to work harder but some common sense is supposed to be applied if they think you're not currently capable of completing enough of a hgher difficulty paper.

Also, WoW isn't a place of learning either.

---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 05:59 PM ----------

They should not, however, expect to do even normal mode without putting at least a couple of hours of effort in to ensure that they know the basics of their classes.

The 89 levels prior to the cap is more than enough time for people to get to know the basics of their classes. Anything outside this isn't required.

[Otimus]

This is why GCSEs are tiered in UK schools. Not good enough to learn about stuff, you'll get put in for the Foundation paper instead of the Higher paper.

They'll always tell you to work harder but some common sense is supposed to be applied if they think you're not currently capable of completing enough of a hgher difficulty paper.

Also, WoW isn't a place of learning either.

---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 05:59 PM ----------


The 89 levels prior to the cap is more than enough time for people to get to know the basics of their classes. Anything outside this isn't required.

Simply put, most raiders live in a fantasy land, and Blizzard is happily giving them hats and playing a flute.

See: Staggered LFR release.
See: All other decisions
See: How raiders act

[Deleted]

People comparing difficulty and fixed difficulty with educational experiences, standards and examination criteria take games far too seriously.

"If in school you can't do something, a teacher doesn't just make the exam easier". It saddens me to hear the difficulty of a game being compared to this.

---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 06:14 PM ----------

Harder content does not mean better content. Most people play video games as they were created for, mild enjoyment and to pass the time - not an alternate life style most posters seem to think.

Truth right there.

[Deleted]

Harder content does not mean better content. Most people play video games as they were created for, mild enjoyment and to pass the time - not an alternate life style most posters seem to think.

Mild enjoyment does not necessarily mean that you have to win everytime. If you win everytime there is no risk and that is fun element.

[Osmeric]

Oddly enough, more people left when the game was becoming "too easy"

This is simply false. Stop being a lying liar who lies, ok?

[Tomana]

Everyone is so eager to blame early cata for the loss. Cataclysm went through a major roller coaster in terms of game direction, from hard to easy and it really made no difference in terms of numbers.

Of course it did, when 4.3 was released Cata maintained it subs despite a year of DS, while early cata made a 2 Mil sub drop.

Game is too hard people left. Game is too easy people left. Which is it? Oddly enough, more people left when the game was becoming "too easy"

This is just plain false, the biggest sub drop was at early Cata and its retarded 5 mans.

[Deleted]

Of course it did, when 4.3 was released Cata maintained it subs despite a year of DS, while early cata made a 2 Mil sub drop.


This is just plain false, the biggest sub drop was at early Cata and its retarded 5 mans.

According to the wikipedia page about cataclysm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_o...aft:_Cataclysm

Subscriptions

Even with the success of Cataclysm, World of Warcraft saw a gradual decline in subscribers through 2011. Following the release of Cataclysm, subscription levels reached a peak of 12 million subscribers but soon dropped to pre-Cataclysm levels of 11.4 million by the end of March, 2011.[37] In early November, 2011, subscriptions declined even further to 10.3 million users.[38] In 2012, the subscription numbers stabilized at around 10.2 million users, holding steady for two consecutive quarters. On August 2nd, 2012 it was revealed that subscription numbers had continued to decline, landing at an approximate 9.1 million subscribers.[39][40][41]

So drop from beginning of cata till 4.3 1.7 mio.
4.3 til just before MoP release a drop of 1.2 mio.

But if you say beginning of cata till firelands its a drop of 600k
compared to firelands till before MoP release 2.3 mio drop.

So no the biggest drop was not at the beginning of cataclysm.